Shadowrun 4e newbie questions

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Ferret
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Post by Ferret »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Ferret wrote: Possession Tradition w/ Task Spirits:

Infinite Skillwires for Magicians?
Not infinite. But very large. Task Spirits are amongst the worst in Combat, but a lot of people identify them as the best spirits. And as the guy who wrote them into the game, I kind of agree with the assessment. Certainly they take their place next to Guidance Spirits, Spirits of Man, and Spirits of Water as spirits that have incredibly impressive and totally irreplaceable powers.


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So as long as I can reliably summon Force 4 or 5 spirits, I've basically got one shot use of basically any skill at will, as long as I can score 2 services?

Hrm. With 9 Summoning dice before modifiers, and 10 to soak drain without buffs...that's really not too bad a chance. It gives 'use any skill you want' using a 2xForce dicepool for the cost of 1 complex action and the possibility of up to Force drain.

Not too shabby at all.
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Post by Lokathor »

Oh yeah, I should ask, my Sustained spells go out once I fall unconscious, right?

We were on a run, and I had Invis on myself and Increase Reflexes on the Troll gunslinger, and then I got knocked out when we were taken behind by a nasty nasty shock glove user (I was hit for 20 Stun in the first attack, leaving me 1 away from bleeding to death). We kinda assumed that my sustained spells immediately ended, but none of us were sure.

EDIT: And can you learn more than one Lingo per language? Does having a Lingo even give you any kind of direct bonus on your native Language, since you never make rolls for it? It seems like you should be able to learn more than one Lingo within a language (Wiz and Street, for example), but it also says that Language uses the normal specialization rules, which replaces each Spec when you get a new one.
Last edited by Lokathor on Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Ferret wrote:
So as long as I can reliably summon Force 4 or 5 spirits, I've basically got one shot use of basically any skill at will, as long as I can score 2 services?
No...

If you can summon a Force 4+ Spirit, then with a Complex Action of summoning time followed by an action for possession and running a very real risk of Drain, you can access a single technical or physical skill for a period of time, provided that you don't have an unbound spirit doing anything at the moment.

Still very good. But not especially close to the power and versatility you described.

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Post by mean_liar »

I think he's referencing compelling the Spirit to use its Skill for you on its own, since it has it. Why bother with possession? Manifest and fix my fucking TV.
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Post by Orion »

What skills are worth taking for use with Channeling? Infiltration is the only one that springs to mind.

For that matter, to what extent can you do things while possessed without using up services with Channeling? Without Channeling?

Assume access to Task and Guardian spirits.
Last edited by Orion on Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ferret »

With a datajack and contacts to provide pirated software (for Knowsofts and Languisofts) aren't technical and physical skills the only things I'd need Skillwires for?

I don't think I'd be using this in the heat of combat, but it could be quite useful for filling out the 'oh crap we really need $Skill!" situations that come up sometimes. It's like the mystic version of having an Agent with Search (Pirate Software) go and fetch you Activesofts on the fly, except not subject to network blackouts.
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Post by Orion »

Is there a viable Mystic Adept build focused on Conjuring rather than Spellcasting?

We have an Aspected Sorcerer already whose toes I don't want to step on. She's using Illusions mostly and a couple of manipulations.

I wanted to play a Conjurer since roleplaying interactions with the spirits is interesting and the toolkit approach appeals to me. But there's concern about how we don't have a "tank". (Party is hacker/rigger, illusion sorcerer, and elf bioware knife fighter plus me). A minmaxed Possession Conjurer could certainly do the job, but I worry about wards.

Therefore, I'm considering a Mystic Adept with combat powers good enough to fight security guards without worrying about wards. However, rather than the typical mix of buff spells and detection/utility, I'd like to focus on conjuring. How can I get this to synergize, or what utility can I get from low-ranked spirits?
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Post by Orion »

Also, what do the spirit possession stat bonuses stack with?

I assume they stack with passive cyberware like Muscle Replacement.

Do they stack with Improved Attribute Adept Powers? Sustained Improved Attribute spells (from sustaining foci? other casters?)
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Orion wrote: Therefore, I'm considering a Mystic Adept with combat powers good enough to fight security guards without worrying about wards.
No. Remember that, to get adept powers, you have to burn your magic attribute. If you want to summon, just play a summoner. Cyberware will do less damage to your magic score.
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Post by Orion »

Why isn't there an Indirect spell that does physical damage? How can I blow up robots without draining myself out? Should I just be using Lightning Bolt or Wreck Vehicle?

How is Quickening actually useful? If I Quicken self-buffs, I attract attention to myself, but maybe if they're Detections or something it's okay. If I Quicken buffs on anyone else, they'll get destroyed by the next ward, right? If I Quicken spells on an item or something, I'm leaving a permanent way to trace me lying around.
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Post by Ferret »

Orion wrote:Why isn't there an Indirect spell that does physical damage? How can I blow up robots without draining myself out? Should I just be using Lightning Bolt or Wreck Vehicle?

How is Quickening actually useful? If I Quicken self-buffs, I attract attention to myself, but maybe if they're Detections or something it's okay. If I Quicken buffs on anyone else, they'll get destroyed by the next ward, right? If I Quicken spells on an item or something, I'm leaving a permanent way to trace me lying around.
Quickening really becomes useful once you also have Extended Masking, which allows you to hide quickened spells and active foci, etc. I believe it also fools wards, allowing you to cart your crazily magically enhanced self hither 'n yon.

Edit: looking over Extended Masking in Street Magic, it would seem that is not the case. So it begs the question, what defeats wards? I can see a custom version of Invisibility [Wards] perhaps? Or even Shape [Ward], which might allow you to make an opposed test to weave a hole in an opposing ward to allow you to pass through unaffected?
Last edited by Ferret on Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Wards are pretty easy to get through, but if you drag any active spells, foci, dual critters, or spirits through the ward or blow it down, you alert the authorities instantly that you did so.

You can let your spirits camp on the metaplanes and call them to you after you walk through physically. And you can recast spells on the inside. But Quickening or being a Ghoul is basically just you being super fucked all the time. Quickening is a shit deal. Similarly, using spirits to sustain spells is completely worthless. The authors just thought sustaining spells was way cooler than it in fact is.

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Post by mean_liar »

I disagree about a few specific Sustained spells.

My typical spell load is:

- Logic booster (self-only)

- custom Invisibility (covers all senses but Touch)

- custom Illusion layered over Invisibility (to interact with teammates, dropped during combat)

- Increased Reflexes (self-only)


Keeping those up drops your dice pools, but shooting unaware enemies is worth it. Using a 5+ shootin' skill and a 5+ shootin' stat with a custom gun and all the trimmings you can afford to lose the dice and still remain accurate.
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Post by Ferret »

It just seems odd to me that Wards were such a giant fuck-you to magic, particularly since they're basically -free- to cast (monetarily speaking); they consume no real resources even for characters, so there's nothing stopping me from making 100NY/hr 40hrs a week doing wards on the sly for whoever can afford to hire me as a 'day job' for my 'Runner. Checking the text in SR4, it does not note that Wards are astrally linked to the creator other than the breaking/pushing them alerts me, so it looks like I'd even be safe from them being used as a ritual focus against me.

That's, what...16000/month, easily able to rock a High lifestyle. Cutting it to 20 hrs gives plenty of time for research & runs, plus a Middle lifestyle and 3k / mo in spending cash before profit from runs.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Is there a way for mages to slip backdoors into wards?
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Post by Username17 »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Is there a way for mages to slip backdoors into wards?
Turn off all your spells and walk in. Wards don't do anything at all if you aren't extended into the Astral at the moment you pass through.

Alternately, the only person in the world who knows you set off the ward is the magic contractor who set it up. So if you can keep him from calling it in (either by giving him a bag of money or jamming his transmissions), then no one else gets to know you blasted the ward down.

And a Symbolic Link (Street Magic, page 58 & 28) doesn't pass through intervening space. So if you have Linking you can mail a hair into the ward and cast the spells you want from outside. Since it doesn't go through the ward, the ward is not activated.

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Post by Lokathor »

I've got a few pending questions (for either Frank or anyone else) that have been skipped over:

1) Concrete is actually ferrocrete? So any "concrete" structure is really an OR3 ferrocrete structure vulnerable to Shape Metal?

2) How do lingos work? Does having a lingo count as your specialization for a language (preventing you from learning Wiz and Legalese at the same time), or do you learn a lingo and then later specialize in it? If the lingo is directly your specialty, does having a lingo in your native language actually do anything, since you never make checks with your native language?

3) When a caster falls unconscious, do their sustained spells immediately end?
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

FrankTrollman wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:Is there a way for mages to slip backdoors into wards?
Alternately, the only person in the world who knows you set off the ward is the magic contractor who set it up. So if you can keep him from calling it in (either by giving him a bag of money or jamming his transmissions), then no one else gets to know you blasted the ward down.
I see, so the big issue in employment as a warder is accessibility and trust.
FrankTrollman wrote:And a Symbolic Link (Street Magic, page 58 & 28) doesn't pass through intervening space. So if you have Linking you can mail a hair into the ward and cast the spells you want from outside. Since it doesn't go through the ward, the ward is not activated.
Handy. Sounds like a good reason to put incinerators in air vents (if filters before wards aren't enough).
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Post by Username17 »

Lokathor wrote:I've got a few pending questions (for either Frank or anyone else) that have been skipped over:

1) Concrete is actually ferrocrete? So any "concrete" structure is really an OR3 ferrocrete structure vulnerable to Shape Metal?
Concrete and Ferrocrete both exist. Concrete is stone. Ferrocrete is literally ferrous (unlike when people in the early 21st century say "ferrocrete" when they mean concrete with a steel skeleton). The Shadowrun future has several building materials that are inherently metallic: Ferrocrete, Plastisteel, and Transparent Aluminum are all metals, and preferred materials for Archologies and secure installations because they are very structurally strong, especially for their weight.
3) When a caster falls unconscious, do their sustained spells immediately end?
Yes.

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Post by Orion »

I have scrutinized the Sympathetic Linking write-up and can't find anything that suggests it can be used the way you say it can. For one thing, It only seems to work with Ritual Casting.

Still wondering what Channeling is supposed to do.
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Post by Username17 »

Orion wrote:I have scrutinized the Sympathetic Linking write-up and can't find anything that suggests it can be used the way you say it can. For one thing, It only seems to work with Ritual Casting.
That's what it does. It causes a spell to manifest at the site of the sympathetic link, rather than at your own location. So intervening things that would keep your spell from working - such as opaque walls or wards - don't matter. It's really time consuming though. But you can cast spells into a warded area without setting off the ward, if you're a dedicated Ritualist. However, since this is essentially the only use of Ritual Casting, you probably are not.
Still wondering what Channeling is supposed to do.
Channeling doesn't do anything. For a while, Peter had romantic notions about fucking over possession traditions by having the spirits run off and do crazy crap during your time with them. But since Possession Spirits use exactly the same rules as normal spirits, that didn't pan out. Channeling stayed in because Peter wrote that section while he was trying to convince me to write horrible punitive restrictions on Possessed actions. Pretend it's made of static - like the official writeup of the Astral Sight quality, which is completely pointless (compare to: Adept from the basic book). I think that bonehead error was John.

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Post by Quantumboost »

FrankTrollman wrote:Channeling doesn't do anything. For a while, Peter had romantic notions about fucking over possession traditions by having the spirits run off and do crazy crap during your time with them. But since Possession Spirits use exactly the same rules as normal spirits, that didn't pan out. Channeling stayed in because Peter wrote that section while he was trying to convince me to write horrible punitive restrictions on Possessed actions. Pretend it's made of static - like the official writeup of the Astral Sight quality, which is completely pointless (compare to: Adept from the basic book). I think that bonehead error was John.

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I was under the impression that Possessing spirits couldn't use your skills while you were possessed, and that Channeling allowed the you/spirit combination to use them. Is that wrong?
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Post by Wesley Street »

Frank, what else did you work on with Gamepro/Catalyst beside Street Magic?
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Post by Username17 »

Wesley Street wrote:Frank, what else did you work on with Gamepro/Catalyst beside Street Magic?
Fanpro.

I am a credited writer on Augmentation.

I m still consulted sometimes on a variety of projects, but only by writers. I don't speak with the current management at all. The lead developer has changed a couple of times since the last time I was on payroll, and I genuinely have no relation with the current lead at all. He was some Battletech guy back when I was there in an official capacity, and I have literally never exchanged a single word with him.

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Post by Wesley Street »

FrankTrollman wrote:Fanpro.
*face-to-palm*

Anyway, who is the current management? I've been freelancing for a year but with firings/resignations/reassignments some of us have no idea who's driving the boat.
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