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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot »

we have given a rather large boost to the MAD classes and a noticeable penalty to the SAD classed.
SAD classes: druid, cleric, wizard, sorcerer.
MAD classes: bard, ranger, paladin, monk.

Giving the MAD classes a boost is fine by me.
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Post by Username17 »

Now a big thing is assigning power levels to items. That's not really that difficult, and honestly can mostly just be ad hocced. Most of the time there's little rhyme or reason for a 2k item to be classified as twice as expensive as a 1k item, so just bundling them all into minor items with no care at all is going to solve as many balance issues as it causes.

Secondly, the basic bonuses such as Enhancement to AC or Constitution should be in addition to the actual powers that a magic item provides. This is for several reasons. The first is that those basic enhancement and resistance bonuses are required for people to be tall enough to ride the ride represented by being whatever level they happen to be. Getting an actually interesting power should not come at the expense of being able to contribute at your level. Secondly, +X swords, while important numerically, are incredibly boring. When the Yuan-Ti show up, their bows and swords need to be like acid or something, because the underlying numbers of a Yuan-Ti Anathema are totally arbitrary, and if all their weapons do is raise those numbers they don't appear to do anything at all. The take-home message from this is that essentially every magic sword in 4e is a minor magic item. A magic sword that actually counted as a Medium, let alone Major magic item would have to do something more interesting and noticeable than any weapon in 4e is capable of doing.

Now, most of the Magic Item Compendium is crap. Like, crap you'd never want right next to crap that breaks the game. Amber Amulets of game rape and Sword Gems of Diabloness are just not good for the game whether they are noticeably out of "cost" compared to other items or not. So just ignoring that whole book is totally fine for me. I can't recall a single good idea in that whole book.

Minor Magic Item Powers
[*] Free mage hand
[*] Small Animal Summoning
[*] Magic Missile negation
[*] Change Self style disguises
[*] Fog Making
[*] Snow Walking
[*] Alarm
[*] Movement increase
[*] Rope Animation
[*] Arrow Catching
[*] Wall Walking
[*] Water Walking
[*] Food Production
[*] Wind Production
[*] Feather Falling
[*] Sustenance
[*] Counterspelling
[*] Ramming
[*] Flaming
[*] Freezing
[*] Shocking
[*] Caustic
[*] Poisonous
[*] Returning/Called
[*] Ghost Touch
[*] Bane
[*] Energy Resistance
[*] Skill Bonus (You can have an enhancement bonus to Armor and a bonus to Move Silently in one Minor Item)
[*] Light Fortification
[*] Arrow Catching
[*] Water Production, Minor
[*] Darkvision
[*] Light Production
[*] Darkness Production
[*] Keenness
Medium Magic Item Powers
[*] Mind Shielding
[*] Animal Friendship
[*] Invisibility
[*] Oathbow
[*] Lifestealing
[*] Slaying
[*] Terror
[*] Puncturing
[*] Holy/Anarchic/Whatever
[*] Minor Spell Storing
[*] Haste
[*] Water Breathing
[*] Rhino (Charge Bonus)
[*] Command Bonus
[*] Celestial/Light/Penumbra (reduced encumbrance)
[*] Levitation
[*] Dimension Hop (Cape of the Mountebank)
[*] Medium Fortification
[*] Water Production, Greater
[*] Rusting
[*] See in Darkness
[*] Telepathy
[*] See Invisibility
Major Magic Item Powers
[*] Blink
[*] Mind Blank
[*] Spell Storing
[*] Spell Turning
[*] Telekinesis
[*] Regeneration
[*] Elemental Command
[*] Holy Avenging
[*] Ruin
[*] Vorpal
[*] Dancing
[*] Flight
[*] Absorbing (Disintegrate on touch)
[*] Heavy Fortification
[*] Etherealness
[*] Plane Hopping
[*] X-Ray Vision
[*] Scrying
[*] Life Trapping
[*] Petrification
[*] True Seeing
[*] Weather Control
Banned Magic Item Powers
[*]Candle of Invocation and anything else that causes players to count as higher level than they are.
[*]Belt of Magnificence and anything else that breaks the 8 item limit on purpose.
[*]Luck Stone, and anything else that exists to provide non-standard stackabonuses.
[*]3 Wishes, or even 1 wish. Or really anything that simply and directly interacts with the Wish Economy.
[*] Monk's Belt, Druid Vestments, and anything else that allows you to be another class with a UMD roll.
[*] Boccob's Book, Golem Manuals, and any other magic item that shunts Magic costs around.
Problematic Magic Item Powers
[*] Bag of Holding and other Storage Items
[*] Expendable anything.
[*] Figurines of Wondrous Power
[*] Instant Fortresses and other "logistics" items.
[*] Golems and other "creature" items.
[*] Anything that is usable less often than 1/day.

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Post by IGTN »

Why are Golem Manuals banned? Having a golem manual doesn't do anything, and using it just gives you a golem, so golem manuals aren't necessarily any worse than getting a golem unless I'm missing something where a golem manual on a treasure pile is different from a deactivated golem and its command codes sitting on the same treasure pile.
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Post by Username17 »

IGTN wrote:Why are Golem Manuals banned? Having a golem manual doesn't do anything, and using it just gives you a golem, so golem manuals aren't necessarily any worse than getting a golem unless I'm missing something where a golem manual on a treasure pile is different from a deactivated golem and its command codes sitting on the same treasure pile.
Golem Manuals are items that don't do anything unless and until you voltron them into an actual golem. Which of course is exactly what you're going to do with it. So they can't be a lower tier than the golem they make, but they can't in all fairness be the same tier either. They suffer from A != A, and thus cannot be made balanced.

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Post by Crissa »

If golems are banned, what about hired help?

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Post by IGTN »

A golem manual can be the same tier as the golem it makes. It's not as good as the golem it makes, and there's no reason to ever write one yourself unless you have something that gives you a discount on golem manuals, but it's still a viable treasure drop.

If you add in some connection between golems and their creator that can't be easily changed, then a golem manual even makes sense to make; it's a golem that you can give to other people (until it gets made into a golem and does anything).
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Post by Username17 »

Crissa wrote:If golems are banned, what about hired help?

-Crissa
Who said anything about banning Golems?

Although, true story: the higher end golems need some help. The Iron Golem is a fucking joke. Magic Immunity and DR or not, he has 2 attacks at +23 for 22 points of damage each, a lousy 129 hit points, and an AC of 30. Coupled with a painfully slow speed, he just can't seriously threaten 13th level characters even if he's locked in a closet with them. For starters, the slams of a Golem should be level appropriate scaling magic weapons. And they need a replacement for Con modifiers to Hit Points that actually scales to level. I suggest just giving them Strength modifier instead of that bullshit Size Modifier. When the Iron Golem walks in there with two attacks at +28 for 27 points a pop and has an additional 168 hit points, then it becomes something that a 13th level character has to take seriously. I mean, a Flask Rogue will still take them apart, and a Mage can still box them up with silent image, but at least they can do some serious damage against a PC before they drop if they actually get into melee.

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Post by kjdavies »

FrankTrollman wrote:Although, true story: the higher end golems need some help. The Iron Golem is a fucking joke. Magic Immunity and DR or not, he has 2 attacks at +23 for 22 points of damage each, a lousy 129 hit points, and an AC of 30. Coupled with a painfully slow speed, he just can't seriously threaten 13th level characters even if he's locked in a closet with them. For starters, the slams of a Golem should be level appropriate scaling magic weapons. And they need a replacement for Con modifiers to Hit Points that actually scales to level. I suggest just giving them Strength modifier instead of that bullshit Size Modifier. When the Iron Golem walks in there with two attacks at +28 for 27 points a pop and has an additional 168 hit points, then it becomes something that a 13th level character has to take seriously. I mean, a Flask Rogue will still take them apart, and a Mage can still box them up with silent image, but at least they can do some serious damage against a PC before they drop if they actually get into melee.

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I had somewhere a treatise that suggested that many or most of the 'null ability score' monsters (golems, undead, and vermin mostly) could be redone with non-null ability scores and subtypes. As I recall, the two most common (Con and Int) looked something like

'Con -' becomes 'lifeless'. Con still measures physical durability as with living creatures (affects hit points, so the Con 28 zombie will take some effort to beat down), but the (Lifeless) means it's immune to things that need a 'living creature'. Similarly, high Con constructs are durably built, low Con constructs are fragile.

'Int -' becomes 'mindless'. Int indicates 'programmed' or 'instinctive' skills. 'Mindless' makes it largely immune to mind-affecting effects and the like. A smart golem crafter might be able to pound out masterwork weapons as long as the materials and whatnot are available, but it's not like it would be able to hold a witty conversation), 'smart bugs' might have a better range of survival skills available, even though they probably aren't the best tool-users.

Str and Dex are a little harder to capture, and I don't remember what the author had down for them.

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Post by PhaedrusXY »

Frank and K actually have subtype rules like that in their Tome of Necromancy. I don't know what they had planned for constructs in the Book of Gears, as it was never finished. I did like the fluff they had about why vermin are mindless and have darkvision, though. :D
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Post by Username17 »

Writing in Con scores for all the Unliving undead was a lot of work. And actually something of a requirement if those undead types were to become playable, which many of them are. But it's really a lot of work. And you get comparable numbers by simply arbitrarily announcing some attribute for the creatures to get Hit Points from. Constitution doesn't really do anything vital other than that. So a lot of monsters just grab hit points off of Charisma (a stat which is otherwise similarly useless). And for monsters that have pretty much arbitrary attributes and hit dice, that's sufficient. The challenge then, is simply to find an attribute that scales properly for Golems.

And as it happens, it's Strength. That's seriously the solution: NPC Constructs get hit points from Strength Bonus instead of Constitution.

Done.

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Post by kjdavies »

FrankTrollman wrote:Writing in Con scores for all the Unliving undead was a lot of work. And actually something of a requirement if those undead types were to become playable, which many of them are. But it's really a lot of work. And you get comparable numbers by simply arbitrarily announcing some attribute for the creatures to get Hit Points from. Constitution doesn't really do anything vital other than that. So a lot of monsters just grab hit points off of Charisma (a stat which is otherwise similarly useless). And for monsters that have pretty much arbitrary attributes and hit dice, that's sufficient. The challenge then, is simply to find an attribute that scales properly for Golems.

And as it happens, it's Strength. That's seriously the solution: NPC Constructs get hit points from Strength Bonus instead of Constitution.

Done.

-Username17
A reasonable and straightforward solution. For incorporeal undead it's probably reasonable to use Cha there, as I recall all in core have Cha 12+.

I agree that assigning Con scores to all undead and constructs is a lot of work, I just thought I'd mention that I'd seen the idea before.

I looked at revising monster types as described at http://wiki.kjd-imc.org/Revising_Monster_Types

This will require rather more work than your solution to actually apply, since many creatures would need to be at least partly reengineered. It's largely not *difficult*, it's just a lot of work.

And I don't expect to do it quite this way any more anyway; this is mostly an historical document I may use for reference later.

</topicshift>

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Post by Ferret »

Did you guys ever look at having Attuned magic items mostly -break- when their bearer dies?

Some kind of difficult save for each item such that you don't get the huge pile of miscellaneous / redundant items as you roll through levels?
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Post by Username17 »

Ferret wrote:Did you guys ever look at having Attuned magic items mostly -break- when their bearer dies?

Some kind of difficult save for each item such that you don't get the huge pile of miscellaneous / redundant items as you roll through levels?
Absolutely. There's a reason why Diablo has only one item or less drop from the corpse of a fully armed and armored soldier - and it's because that is a fuck tonne easier to keep track of. However, we solidly rejected that sort of thing even before we saw what a hash 4e made out of the concept.

The fact is that if your wealth system is balanced contingent the idea of the PCs not being able to figure out that they can take enemies out of combat with sleep or sap strikes, you're in for a seriously rude surprise. Players can and will figure out how to get the armor off of their enemies without killing them, and there's really nothing you can do to stop that.

You have to balance the game based on the idea that players can grab and fire any Chekhov Gun that you introduce to the production, because they can.

Now to an extent, scaling items and very limited cross tier uptrading makes this fact a lot less problematic. If all the Samurai of the Cobra Clan have Venomous Katanas, it's not world ending. The players can grab themselves venomous katanas if they want, but it doesn't get collected and sold for the price of a vorpal sword because they essentially can't be.

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Post by Red_Rob »

Ferret wrote:Did you guys ever look at having Attuned magic items mostly -break- when their bearer dies?

Some kind of difficult save for each item such that you don't get the huge pile of miscellaneous / redundant items as you roll through levels?
This method would introduce a massive amount of uncertainty into item acquisition, aswell as add a lot of dice rolling. Some levels you could get no items, the next level everyone could get a full set of new gear.

Also, the DM loses the ability to give out specific gear when needed. If the Monk is sucking and you want to dole out, say, an amulet of polymorph-tiger you don't know if its going to survive.

In short, this is a bad idea. The issue of too many items should have been partially fixed by using the item rules in the Book of Gears.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Too many items is easily fixed, by 1) having valuable items have value that less valuable items can't acheive, and 2) cap on item slots.

Once the party has found an other commando team of level 5 Orcish warriors kitted with +2 stat items, +2 weapons and +3 armour/shields; they're not going to care.

They might grab the stuff, or not; and it doesn't matter to the game.

Honestly, the Baldur's Gate model for loot is one I prefer over the Diablo model for loot. It feels more honest, and less like I'm being lied to.

The guy with a magic sword, will drop a magic sword. Bandits with bows can be killed for their weapons and arrows, etc.
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Post by souran »

Judging__Eagle wrote: They might grab the stuff, or not; and it doesn't matter to the game.

Honestly, the Baldur's Gate model for loot is one I prefer over the Diablo model for loot. It feels more honest, and less like I'm being lied to.

The guy with a magic sword, will drop a magic sword. Bandits with bows can be killed for their weapons and arrows, etc.
See it doesn't bother me at all that you can find a suit of fullplate in the room with the demon who is statted using leather armor.

I have played my share of games where the players take everything and its more nuisance than interesting.

Also, if the bad guys have to wear anything your going to find then things like the effect of fireball and disentigrate on magic items becomes key to the tatics of the game and honestly that sucks. Having the treasure in the adventure get broken in order to take it is just not fun.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

True, the "greyhawk-ing" of enemies is lame, and I can attest to that lame-ness on both sides of the game.

As a ref, watching the players not care that a dragon sits on a pile of gold big enough to fill a football field is good.

As a player, picking up 8 +1 swords so that I can sell them; and then craft a single +1 Moderate Fortification armour is lame. As is breaking every single temple and stealing the gems. Such temple-looting stories can only be told once, and the game world becomes poorer every time it is told.

Disintegrate doesn't affect items iirc. Fireball also deals trivial damage to 'objects'.

Personally, I just feel like I'm insulting the PCs if they find something on the monster, that it wasn't wearing.

Of course, if the monster has piles and piles of say... refuse, or treasure, then sure, something of value can be placed there, but a ghost dying, and dropping a suit of full plate is sort of silly.
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Post by PhaedrusXY »

souran wrote:Also, if the bad guys have to wear anything your going to find then things like the effect of fireball and disentigrate on magic items becomes key to the tatics of the game and honestly that sucks. Having the treasure in the adventure get broken in order to take it is just not fun.
Spells don't affect attended items unless the owner rolls a 1 on their saving throw (or unless the item itself is the target). Even on the natural 1 save, IIRC only one item is affected.
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Post by Surgo »

I'll go ahead and add those missing minor/moderate/major magic item powers to the Book of Gears lists on the wiki. Every little update counts!
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Say, when "Lifestealing" is mentioned... in Moderate, and Lifetrapping in Major; where does the Lifedrinker property end up? It's "give target 1 Negative level; you get one too: golems/undead use these a lot of the time" (srsly, written in the DMG on how to use these weapons).

Also, should properties, items and the like have "spoiler" notes that explain how something works?

Like how the RoW Knight explains how a Knight is a 'defense' class.
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Post by Crissa »

None of these changes requires the badguys to actually be wearing the loot. It just encourages it.

I think it's much better that you just fought a guy weilding a +3 flaming sword than fought a guy who was using a sword but there was a better mace sitting on the table behind him.

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Post by Red_Rob »

FrankTrollman wrote:So here are derivable points:
  • Level 2:[/b] Any item that is not a minor magic item can be upgraded to a masterwork version.
Using PHB prices a Masterwork suit of Plate Mail and Greatsword runs you around 2,000gp. DMG WBL for level 2 runs at 900gp.
FrankTrollman wrote:[*]Level 7: Any magic item slot that does not have a medium or major magic item in it can be filled with a semi-customizable minor magic item. This could easily be achieved by level 5, if the PCs fight a lot of Kaorti or Drow.
So, each PC should theoretically be able to buy up to 8 minor items. If we assume a base of 2,000gp per minor item, thats 16,000gp. DMG WBL is currently 19,000gp.
FrankTrollman wrote:[*] Level 12: Any magic item slot not filled with a major or epic magic item can be filled with a semi-customizable medium magic item. This could easily be achieved by level 9, if the PCs do something like Chain Binding.[/list]
Assuming Medium items run an average of 12,000gp we hit 96,000gp to fully equip with medium items. DMG WBL runs at 88,000gp. And once you have achieved that your gold expenditure is basically done as a means of increasing your combat potential as any higher level items are Wish economy. So that leads to the total gold haul over an aventurers career of around 100,000gp before he enters the Wish economy and gold ceases to be useful as a means of purchasing what he requires.
FrankTrollman wrote:And that suggests:
  • Level 17: Any magic item slot not filled with an epic magic item can be filled with a semi-customizable major magic item.
Following the philosophy of the Economicon, players will be unable to purchase Major items with Gold and will therefore be trading Major items they have obtained or using Wish Economy materials to purchase these. How this would interact with the WBL system is still to be determined. The easiest way would be to leave item costs as they are and assign Wish economy materials a "gp equivalence" that can be used to purchase Major items. So, an Astral Diamond may have a 20,000gp "value" for purchasing Major items. In this scenario the WBL tables would remain, however gold and gems would no longer be counted as wealth.

A couple of questions regarding other points raised:
FrankTrollman wrote:Indeed, the solution we were leaning towards was:

Minor Magic Items are like technology in the Gold Economy - if you want a fire sword or a poison blade, you can go to the shops and track one down.

Medium Magic Items are like art in the Gold Economy. Oathbows and Lifestealers exist, and are traded for gold, but they are like works of art and there is no guarantee of you being able to track one down or that any one of them is not unique.

Major Magic Items are like technology in the Wish Economy. If you have some planar pearls or some souls, you can go to Finality or Sigil and track down a Ring of Telekinesis or Regeneration and buy one.

Artifacts are like Art in the Wish Economy. While The Sword of Kas may well sell in an auction for some Raw Chaos or something, there's only one of it. And if the current owner is using it right now, it's not for sale at all.
If the availability of the 'art' items is down to DM fiat, how is this different to the 4ed method of "choose which items your players get and they can't sell them"? With the 'art' method, the DM tells you what items are for sale and if you want something else, that's tough.

I mean i understand that any reasonable DM will make wanted items available to the players and use the 'object'd'art' angle as a source of quest ideas, but I was under the impression that leaving item availability solely up to the DM was 2ed thinking and we had left that behind.
FrankTrollman wrote:Once we throw down with the idea that items scale automagically to character level and don't get bigger or smaller than that, we have given a rather large boost to the MAD classes and a noticeable penalty to the SAD classed. Wizards don't really give a fuck about anything but their Headband of Intellect and some defensive items, leading most Wizards to jump on the +6 Headband around level 10. With scaling items, they get their Headband of Intellect +2 at level 4, and at level 10 it grows to a +4. That's substantially behind the curve for what Wizards get out of the DMG, even as getting your +4 Sword coming online at level 10 is a substantial benefit for Paladins.
Whilst this does reduce the problem somewhat, does it solve the problem of the Wizard taking the money the fighter spent on a minor magic sword, armor, shield and bow to stay relevant in combat and spending it on a Medium headband of intellect boosting + spell storing/some other enhancement? The fact remains the Wizard doesn't really need items at all to compete so any bonus is just gravy.
FrankTrollman wrote:Banned Magic Item Powers

3 Wishes, or even 1 wish. Or really anything that simply and directly interacts with the Wish Economy.
Whilst I agree that short cuts to infinite Wishes is a good way to end the game, if there are no items to allow non-casters to participate in the Wish economy doesn't that make the Wish economy even more of a caster-only party, with everyone else sat on the outside looking in? I mean, planar travel and item creation are already monopolised by spellcasters. This would make it even harder for Rogues and Warriors to play with the big boys.
Crissa wrote:I think it's much better that you just fought a guy weilding a +3 flaming sword than fought a guy who was using a sword but there was a better mace sitting on the table behind him
Surely no-one does this in a tabletop game? I thought that was a purely videogame convention. Hell, even the presence of chests with combat-worthy items in seem suspect. Its like keeping your gun locked in the bedroom whilst invaders are breaking down your door.
Last edited by Red_Rob on Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Red_Rob wrote: Using PHB prices...gp. DMG WBL for level...runs...gp.
I'm pretty sure that Frank is using magic items as the measure of wealth by level, not pieces of gold.
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Post by Username17 »

RR wrote:Using PHB prices a Masterwork suit of Plate Mail and Greatsword runs you around 2,000gp. DMG WBL for level 2 runs at 900gp.
Yeah, but 2nd level characters can just build that stuff if it comes down to it. And the vast majority of team members don't have equipment that costs 900 gp, so the PCs could probably pool their resources and get it covered.

But the real story is that while the game tries to screw certain characters, by making their shit cost as much as magic items, the characters who are being boned by this are strength based archers and heavy armor wearers. And honestly, if there is anyone in D&D who doesn't need a hefty anal pear, it's those guys.

Now, one thing I will grant is that mithril armor and chitin armor and dragonscale are a lot better than breastplates or chain shirts. So I would be willing to grant a fudge factor for one level to be able to assume that you have masterwork standard equipment and another to assume that you can get exotic equipment such as Nerra Shard weaponry or Enokian Clay armor. I could very easily see that getting spaced out by a couple of levels. But really, if your character concept involves running around in coral armor with a ruby trident, you should definitely be doing that by level 4 or so on the outside.
So, each PC should theoretically be able to buy up to 8 minor items. If we assume a base of 2,000gp per minor item, thats 16,000gp. DMG WBL is currently 19,000gp.
And that's the problem. No organic campaign is ever going to hand out a superfluity of minor magic items before it hands out a single Medium or Major magic item. If I had to guess, I would say that about 4 items of one tier hit the table for every one item of the next tier up. So I would expect a four person party to by the time they maxed out their slots with Minor Magic items to have like 6 or 7 Medium Magic Items and 1 or 2 Majors. And the really important thing about that, is that it does produce uneven results. At the point where Holy Avengers are "really rare" that means that one player gets one.

And that's problematic for obvious reasons. You simply can't make a cloak of displacement feel special without having it give a manifest and demonstrable piece of favoritism to the player getting it.

You can solve that problem "Power Rangers" style by handing out the above-level loot in neat party-sized increments with one clear upgrade for each party member as a quest reward. But unless you're taking rewards from the Emperor for supporting him in the periphery against the Giant incursion or something, it feels really contrived. Perhaps more so than even letting one and only one player run around with a Major Magic Item, that kind of "D&D Cartoon" solution can cause resentment.

There is no easy or universal solution to that.
Assuming Medium items run an average of 12,000gp we hit 96,000gp to fully equip with medium items. DMG WBL runs at 88,000gp. And once you have achieved that your gold expenditure is basically done as a means of increasing your combat potential as any higher level items are Wish economy. So that leads to the total gold haul over an aventurers career of around 100,000gp before he enters the Wish economy and gold ceases to be useful as a means of purchasing what he requires.
That seems reasonable.

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Post by Red_Rob »

CatharzGodsfoot wrote:I'm pretty sure that Frank is using magic items as the measure of wealth by level, not pieces of gold.
Up until the Wish economy hits, items can be bought and sold for pieces of gold, therefore there is no measurable difference between "I have a 10,000gp item" and "I have 10,000gp". The Wealth by Level table should show roughly how much Gold Piece equivalence each character should be using in equipment by that point.
FrankTrollman wrote:No organic campaign is ever going to hand out a superfluity of minor magic items before it hands out a single Medium or Major magic item. If I had to guess, I would say that about 4 items of one tier hit the table for every one item of the next tier up. So I would expect a four person party to by the time they maxed out their slots with Minor Magic items to have like 6 or 7 Medium Magic Items and 1 or 2 Majors.
So, taking 4>1 as a rough estimate, you would say that at the point where a level 7 character is able to fill his slots with Minor items, they would have 1 slot filled with a Medium item and one with either a Medium or a Major? Depending on how we price Major items, that would be more like 40,000gp equivalence at lvl 7. Thats a fair whack over the 19,000gp DMG recommendation.
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