Wealth By Level

[erik]

Hrmmmm...

tvtropes.org/.../drizzt_poster.jpg

Verrry interesting.

You know what? You didn't provide a url to the thing, so all we have is a file name, and we don't even have that unless we quote you.

-Crissa

Damn. It showed up in my computer alright since I had it cached I guess. I'll get on fixing that. As one can guess though, tis a pic of drizzt with two swords =-p

[Orca]

I see a picture. Also, for me right-click - Copy File Location gives this:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/drizzt_poster.jpg

[Kaelik]

Allow me to clarify - I wasn't referring to the "+D6 fire damage" Flaming ability when i said a weapon that just does fire damage was lame. I meant any power who's only effect is to increase damage is going to get boring after you've seen a few like it. I was including Tome "your on fire" and "all your damage is fire" in that, and the reason is that most combats don't go on longer than 2 or 3 rounds, so D6 fire damage a round is just 2-3D6 more damage over the fight. And thats not great. Similarly, dealing all fire damage might be flavourful, but overall its not going to matter in 9 out of 10 fights. I want the Fire Katana to bring more than that to the party, hence the "shoots fire and has other abilities".

It's a minor magic item. It's not supposed to give more than that. If your minor magic items that come cheap as free to everyone and that everyone has eight of bring more to the table than that, you have a problem.

The question is, how do we link these into WBL? For the idea of WBL to remain sound it must provide a rough estimate of power level by looking at the value of items. Therefore, we need to determine costs for Lesser, Medium and Major powers and determine how these are going to stack. Say for arguments sake Minor items start around 2,000gp, Lesser items are 4,000gp a pop, medium items are 12,000gp and Major start at 15,000gp but average around 20-25,000gp. How are we going to determine the cost of these multi power items? Simply add the cost of each of the powers? This would mean a Medium item with an additional Lesser power would be over the 15,000gp Major item limit, but I'm not sure it would provide the same level of power as a ring of Spell Turning or a Weapon of Ruin.

We don't link these to WBL, because WBL doesn't matter and isn't important and is directly contradictory to the entire premise of the item system being outlined here.

We don't value things base on WBL.

You have minor magic items, medium, and major.

At a given level, you are expected to have between 0-infinity of each of those. When you hit level 9 and you have infinity minor magic items, there is no possible valuation of minor magic items that is coexistent with any WBL.

[Judging__Eagle]

So, what's the deal with Golems and creature items?

The Book of Gears solution was that as long as the Golem is tasked with a single sentance task, it will perform that task, until you tell it otherwise, at which point it takes up one of your 8 items slots.

Is that a good idea, or are there problems with it, and if so where?

[Vnonymous]

Why do we even have this sort of scaling item anyway? Unless you can only get one sort of scaling item that makes you better at one specific thing, there's no point to having these items that isn't solved by just making those properties properties of the heroes themselves.

Shouldn't this sort of basic "item tax" be taken care of by the character being a hero anyway?

[Blicero]

Because 3.x is filled with a bunch of "you must be this tall to adventure here" signs, and characters need a +x item at level y in order to meet said requirements.

Races of War (I think) just gives the optional rule of letting characters cast greater magic weapon 1/day or something; similar rules could essentially alleviate the need for vertical booster items.

But the boosts themselves are still ultra-vital unless you do a radical rescaling of lotsa numbers.[/i]

[maddd0g]

Why do we even have this sort of scaling item anyway? Unless you can only get one sort of scaling item that makes you better at one specific thing, there's no point to having these items that isn't solved by just making those properties properties of the heroes themselves.

Shouldn't this sort of basic "item tax" be taken care of by the character being a hero anyway?

Interesting point, and 4e kinda does this with ability scores, and 1/2 your level modifies just about everything.

Would like to see a modified system for leveling ability scores and such for PC.

[Prak]

Ok, so I've tried to figure out how one's supposed to create treasure by encounter according to the DMG, but I'm seriously not trying all that hard, and it's bullshit anyway. There is not a single reference, that I can find, to the table 3-3:Treasure Values per Encounter, and when I try to use it, monsters of a given encounter frequently have more value than that in their equipment (an Anathema Yuan-ti has a 50,000g weapon in it's stat block, it is CR 18, and the proper treasure for that is 47,000g), and even the table you're supposed to roll on for treasure will give out way more than those values.

So how the hell am I supposed to do this?

edit: huh, that was supposed to be a new thread. whatever...

[Red_Rob]

Why do we even have this sort of scaling item anyway? Unless you can only get one sort of scaling item that makes you better at one specific thing, there's no point to having these items that isn't solved by just making those properties properties of the heroes themselves.

Shouldn't this sort of basic "item tax" be taken care of by the character being a hero anyway?

Well, with only 8 item slots and each item only providing one enhancement it provides the option for character customisation. Yes, most warriors might go for armor, weapon, AC and Strength boosters, but that still leaves 4 slots to play with.

Just increasing everyones abilities, or having the increases set by class, leaves everyone feeling kind of samey. Also, this method provides the opportunity to switch out items for a different bonus if you identify a weakness in your character or gain a new power.

(the fire katana is) a minor magic item. It's not supposed to give more than that. If your minor magic items that come cheap as free to everyone and that everyone has eight of bring more to the table than that, you have a problem.

Actually we were proposing that any item with more than one power would be at least a Medium item. The proposed progression was 2 lesser powers = 1 Medium power, 2 Medium powers = Major power.

So this means a Major item could have 4 Lesser powers or 2 Medium powers, or a Medium and 2 Lesser instead of a Major power. I think this system would be compatible with Book of Gears items, and still allow for classic Multi-Power items.

At a given level, you are expected to have between 0-infinity of each of those. When you hit level 9 and you have infinity minor magic items, there is no possible valuation of minor magic items that is coexistent with any WBL.

I disagree. You have WBL up to level 9 measured in "gold" and measures all items the characters have. Then at level 9 your WBL table switches to "Planar Currency" and it is assumed you have anything you need that can be bought with gold. WBL from that point measures Major magic items.

I'm not saying its necessarily the way to do it, but its definitely possible. I'm just not sure whether there would be any benefit to WBL in gold over WBL in items if we are proposing standardising the item costs for each of the 4 tiers.

[Username17]

Ok, so I've tried to figure out how one's supposed to create treasure by encounter according to the DMG, but I'm seriously not trying all that hard, and it's bullshit anyway. There is not a single reference, that I can find, to the table 3-3:Treasure Values per Encounter, and when I try to use it, monsters of a given encounter frequently have more value than that in their equipment (an Anathema Yuan-ti has a 50,000g weapon in it's stat block, it is CR 18, and the proper treasure for that is 47,000g), and even the table you're supposed to roll on for treasure will give out way more than those values.

So how the hell am I supposed to do this?

edit: huh, that was supposed to be a new thread. whatever...

Average treasure per encounter is an average. Every time you fight an NPC or a monster just like an NPC (Giant, Outsider, Dragon), you get more than the average, and every time you fight a monster that is just like a terrain feature (like an ooze or a basilisk) you get less. It's all supposed to kind of even out.

-Username17

[kjdavies]

Why do we even have this sort of scaling item anyway? Unless you can only get one sort of scaling item that makes you better at one specific thing, there's no point to having these items that isn't solved by just making those properties properties of the heroes themselves.

Shouldn't this sort of basic "item tax" be taken care of by the character being a hero anyway?

Interesting point, and 4e kinda does this with ability scores, and 1/2 your level modifies just about everything.

Would like to see a modified system for leveling ability scores and such for PC.

Echelon (my d20 variant) goes this way a little. Tiers are four levels each rather than five, it works out better that way.

*deep breath, big wandering post, supposed to be working now so not taking the time to make it concise, sorry*

At the top level of each tier, you get +1 to all ability scores. You get a level bonus equal to one-half your level (as 4e; it's actually not as dumb an idea as it first seemed). You also get a number of talent slots at each level (2, 2, 3, 3) that you can fill with whatever talent you want. Martial training improves your attack bonus, spell training gives you a better caster level and access to higher-level spells, and so on. Not very much stacks and prereqs are kept as simple as possible, and higher-tier talents replace their lower-tier forms. Champion Martial Training, for example, gives you +4 to your BAB and replaces Expert, Heroic, or Master Martial Training if you have it.

(not really a spoiler, more an aside...)

Incidentally, this makes it really easy to build characters from the top down. Building a "legendary swordsman" doesn't mean you have to work out the feat progression needed to get there. Give him legendary martial training (and improved legendary martial training to max out his BAB), Legendary Combat Style (there are multiple forms, give him the one that works best for how he wants to use his chosen weapons) and you're most of the way there. So far he's just really good with his weapons; give him Cutting Wind discipline (making this up as I go -- it lets him fight with 'wind-based techniques' such as you might see in anime, cutting things in half from a distance, 'rapid movement' (free movement as long as he is not impeded), 'become the wind' (incorporeal), etc.) so the Fighter Has Nice Stuff, and so on.

Each ability score has a related talent that gives you a bonus of +2 per tier -- Legendary Strength gives you +10 to your Strength score. You aren't required to bump all your scores, but between the +1 to all ability scores you get as you move up tiers, and the number of slots available, each character has the option of keeping up on his important stuff fairly easily.

(another digression)

Because I want talents to have an 'active component', and this is kind of boring so far, I'm thinking of pinching something from _Dawnforge_ -- a number of times equal to the tier you've taken the talent at, you get a bonus equal to n*tier (right now, +4 per tier) to a check made using that ability score... and if there are successive checks, you get to apply that bonus for a number of successive checks, possibly equal to your level (Dawnforge had it equal to your level, I may limit it to tier, I haven't decided).

So, 1/day a third-level character with Expert Strength could apply a +4 bonus to a Strength-based check (on top of the +1 for increased Strength), and if the action requires multiple checks (long swim, perhaps, or maybe if he has to make several big jumps in a row), he can do so for three checks before the +4 goes away.

OTOH, an 18th-level 'rogue' with Legendary Dexterity could apply a +20 bonus (plus +5 more for +10 Dex) to 5 Dex-based checks per day... each of which might be applied 18 times in a row if he needs to.

Magic items may well be implemented as providing 'additional talents', without really stacking. 'gauntlets of power' and 'belts of strength' can be useful if they give you something you don't have, but don't really do anything for you if you're Just That Badass -- heroic gauntlets of strength (+4 Str) don't do anything much for a character who already has Master Strength intrinsically. Similarly, the sword of the wind (talents of Cutting Wind Style and Cutting Wind Discipline -- mundane and mojo combat ability) doesn't really do anything more than a normal sword in the hands of the Grand Master of the Cutting Wind... but the axe of nemnos, deeply ingrained with the powers of death and dissolution, might.

More options, less directly-stackable power... you still do get more effectiveness from having more stuff, but it doesn't build up the same way... and if you make the power automatically scale you don't even see a lot of benefit to saving up a lot of little goodies to get a big one.

Actually, if the tier thing works as expected, you might not even get much out of it even if things don't scale -- an item with Master-tier talents in it might be enough better than Expert- or Heroic- tier stuff that very few would be willing to trade between them... unless they want to equip a large force, say.

Keith

[Prak]

Ok, so I've tried to figure out how one's supposed to create treasure by encounter according to the DMG, but I'm seriously not trying all that hard, and it's bullshit anyway. There is not a single reference, that I can find, to the table 3-3:Treasure Values per Encounter, and when I try to use it, monsters of a given encounter frequently have more value than that in their equipment (an Anathema Yuan-ti has a 50,000g weapon in it's stat block, it is CR 18, and the proper treasure for that is 47,000g), and even the table you're supposed to roll on for treasure will give out way more than those values.

So how the hell am I supposed to do this?

edit: huh, that was supposed to be a new thread. whatever...

Average treasure per encounter is an average. Every time you fight an NPC or a monster just like an NPC (Giant, Outsider, Dragon), you get more than the average, and every time you fight a monster that is just like a terrain feature (like an ooze or a basilisk) you get less. It's all supposed to kind of even out.

-Username17

Ah, ok, thanks, Frank.

[Lokathor]

Magic items may well be implemented as providing 'additional talents', without really stacking. 'gauntlets of power' and 'belts of strength' can be useful if they give you something you don't have, but don't really do anything for you if you're Just That Badass -- heroic gauntlets of strength (+4 Str) don't do anything much for a character who already has Master Strength intrinsically. Similarly, the sword of the wind (talents of Cutting Wind Style and Cutting Wind Discipline -- mundane and mojo combat ability) doesn't really do anything more than a normal sword in the hands of the Grand Master of the Cutting Wind... but the axe of nemnos, deeply ingrained with the powers of death and dissolution, might.

I like this design. A game could probably go really far with this.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm against that idea of item design because it encourages people to throw away magical items in the trash because they found duplicates.

3E and 4E already has enough problems with people throwing things in the trash because it's literally useless for them; there's no reason for that kind of thing to be in the game.

Of course, the alternative would be to insure that magical item powers didn't do anything that a class feature or a feat or whatever did. I'm okay with that.

[Crissa]

Just because Conan throws away the wand doesn't mean his buddies don't covet it either for its magic item mojo, the spell of strength it casts, or its raw jewel-encrusted market value.

-Crissa

[erik]

That'd be a good system if an item was desired by some party members. It's bad when nobody wants the magic wand.

[kjdavies]

Magic items may well be implemented as providing 'additional talents', without really stacking. 'gauntlets of power' and 'belts of strength' can be useful if they give you something you don't have, but don't really do anything for you if you're Just That Badass -- heroic gauntlets of strength (+4 Str) don't do anything much for a character who already has Master Strength intrinsically. Similarly, the sword of the wind (talents of Cutting Wind Style and Cutting Wind Discipline -- mundane and mojo combat ability) doesn't really do anything more than a normal sword in the hands of the Grand Master of the Cutting Wind... but the axe of nemnos, deeply ingrained with the powers of death and dissolution, might.

I like this design. A game could probably go really far with this.

Thanks. I was trying to make something that allows some Good Stuff, but minimize stacking. Things seem to work fairly well as long as the differences in ability don't get too far apart -- half a RNG is probably the limit of what works really well, up to a full RNG *if* there are other options and/or the normal falls in the middle.

That is, a difference of +10 in attack bonus is probably not too hard to manage. A difference of +20 in attack bonus can be okay if things are midway between them -- one guy is challenged, the other has it easy. It took me a while to come to the conclusion that 'most fights' don't have to be a challenge for the really skilled guy to hit, that chews up what little Nice Stuff he gets. Calibrate for middle BAB, so they can take part in the fight meaningfully, the weaker guy gets a chance, and the really skilled guy can break out what mojo he has. Power Attack is (even more) useless if you can't spare the BAB to fuel it.

So, right now the design calls for magic items to shore up areas that you aren't so badass in yourself. Yeah, it seems a little weak that a legendary swordsman can't find a weapon dedicated to his style of fighting that... does nothing for him, but I don't mind the handwave that using items like that may require you to set aside your own skill to use the weapon.

So, the Grand Master I mentioned above is Terribly Badass with Cutting Wind stuff, it's a part of him. The sword does nothing for him that he can't do himself, so gains nothing from it. The axe, depending on a different fighting style and mojo discipline gives him options he wouldn't otherwise have, *but* the skill is held by the weapon itself and he has to set aside his own personal abilities specific to Cutting Wind to use it to fullest effect.

Keith

[Username17]

So long as you have any limits on items at all (and you need some, otherwise you're going to have to start having the Drow equipment melt for no adequately explained reason to keep equipment from repeatedly doubling into crazy town), you will always have a point where a character does not want some item or another and no one else in the party does either.

Now personally, I find it to be really headache inducing that a strong character would not want gauntlets of strength - not because he had some other item he liked better - but because he cannot get any benefit from it at all. I was fine with the logic of handing the belt of frost giant strength to the halfling priest because he got the largest marginal benefit out of it - but I found it really weird that my orcish fighter literally got no benefit from gauntlets of ogre power or a belt of hill giant strength at all.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

Now personally, I find it to be really headache inducing that a strong character would not want gauntlets of strength - not because he had some other item he liked better - but because he cannot get any benefit from it at all. I was fine with the logic of handing the belt of frost giant strength to the halfling priest because he got the largest marginal benefit out of it - but I found it really weird that my orcish fighter literally got no benefit from gauntlets of ogre power or a belt of hill giant strength at all.

I don't really.

I don't see it exactly as having no effect, but rather no measurable effect that matters from the scale of the game. So it may help a little for Hercules to use a strength booster, but it's not significant enough of a bonus for it to actually matter on a d20 roll, especially if you're calling d20 increases to be a geometric or exponential progression over a linear one.

And there's plenty of modifiers that you may rule to be inconsequential. If a guy using the stealth skill is wearing dark clothes, black body paint, special quiet footwear, etc. There's a lot of crap people may think of to grant bonuses, and while you may accept that such a thing would make a job easier, the idea that it automatically grants a noticeable bonus on a d20 roll is another matter entirely.

When you're talking about high level heroes, I think that absolutely could translate to lesser magic items just not being strong enough to give a bonus. It may matter that the sword is "magic" for purposes of hitting something incorporeal, but it probably isn't going to influence the attack roll at all.

Ironman may get a great strength boost from wearing his powered armor, but the hulk... not so much.

[A Man In Black]

Now personally, I find it to be really headache inducing that a strong character would not want gauntlets of strength - not because he had some other item he liked better - but because he cannot get any benefit from it at all. I was fine with the logic of handing the belt of frost giant strength to the halfling priest because he got the largest marginal benefit out of it - but I found it really weird that my orcish fighter literally got no benefit from gauntlets of ogre power or a belt of hill giant strength at all.

Why not? If your orcish fighter is already as strong as an ogre, he's not going to get much out of gloves that imbue him with the strength of an ogre. If the elf rogue already walks on dry leaves without making a sound, boots that give him steps as light as a rabbit aren't too helpful. If this is a problem for you, add horizontal schticks to all of the catch-up vertical boosters, like extra carrying capacity or the ability to throw boulders (in the case of the ogre gloves).

You can always flavor things so that they work in-universe the way you want them to work in game terms.

[Judging__Eagle]

Fail, fail, fail. fail.

RC, Man in Black, those responses are fucking fail, and you should both know it.

Thor wears both Gauntlets of Strength and a Girdle of Strength, at the same time.

In a game where Thor is seriously a character, and wears such items, then the players should be able to realize those sort of benefits.

The corollary is this though.

In a game without Thor as any sort of Character (aka, not D&D; since remember, Thor seriously lives in Asgard, and it's a place that exists, but Tolkien's Middle Earth, or Shadowrun are places that don't have that at all, so not being able to stack items up together makes more sense.

Say, in an Middle Earth rpg, you can only get the benefits of one magic item at a time. So, players seriously only carry one magic item at a time.

[RandomCasualty2]

Thor wears both Gauntlets of Strength and a Girdle of Strength, at the same time.

Well yes but his items are presumably divine level magic items, not minor crap that a low level PC would have.

I'm not saying Thor shouldn't get benefit from any magical items. Just that he shouldn't benefit from some crap a low level character would be wearing.

Mjolnir absolutely will improve Thor's combat ability. Giving him a minor magical sword instead of a normal sword however isn't going to produce a noticeable difference.

[Judging__Eagle]

Ok, good point. How would those items work? Are they artifacts?

Also why can't a strong person see benefits from a strength boosting item?

[RandomCasualty2]

Ok, good point. How would those items work? Are they artifacts?

Basically I'd arrange it by tier. Say you give +4 for a magic sword of your tier, and a +2 for a magic item one tier lower. A magic item that's two tiers below you gives you no benefit.

So Thor using Mjolnir is a +4. If Thor used say Excalibur, which isnt' divine but is pretty fucking awesome, he'd get a +2. If he used some magic sword from Dave's discount enchantments, he wouldn't get any benefit at all.

Also why can't a strong person see benefits from a strength boosting item?

Well the idea isn't so much that he doesn't benefit. It's that he doesn't benefit enough to make it numerically relevant.

The reason you want to nullify those benefits is simply to try to avoid the growing importance of magic items. A +1 sword is something you can live without, but a +5 sword basically makes a huge difference when you're disarmed.

You want that bonus to be consistent. So Thor disarmed, is about the same as Conan disarmed. You can't do that if Thor loses a bigger portion of his bonuses because Mjolnir is "better" than Conan's sword.

[IGTN]

There are two competing ways to do items. These are more extremes of a spectrum than distinct types, though:
1) Catch-up items. A catch-up item lets you do something that you can't ordinarily do, but someone else can. These items usually don't stack, or don't stack very well, with having that as your main schtick, although there can be exceptions.

2) Mandatory items. A mandatory item lets you do what you already do, better. It's mandatory because stacking your bonuses as high as they can is the minimum standard for a competent specialist.

Consider, now, the Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind. They're a set of items that make you good at stealth. D&D does the Mandatory Items system, so you give them to the person who already sneaks to make them better at it. Under a catch-up items system, they would instead give you max ranks in Hide and Move Silently or whatever, so you give them to someone else and they can also sneak.

A catch-up items system means your items shore up your weaknesses. By definition, you can't have items that boost your strengths under this system unless you have higher-level items, where the item that boosts you in what you're good at is higher level than you and makes you good at it like that level. So, basically, Thor's belt and gloves get to be higher level than he is, they don't work under a catch-up items system, and anyone who puts them on gains Thor's strength.

Older editions Belt of * Giant Strength did something like this, too, where they set your strength to some number that was bigger than it was normally allowed to be. The item set your capability, rather than enhanced it, but it made it bigger than it could otherwise possibly be.

A hybrid system would allow them to have a maximum strength increase, but eventually you get diminishing returns or don't care. Prerequisites can also prevent a kid from running amok with Thor's Gloves under a catch-up system.

Now, an interesting idea occurs to me. D&D's wands technically fit in with the way I described the catch-up paradigm, especially if a rogue is using them, but also for a sorcerer who doesn't know the spell or a wizard who didn't prepare it. So, although this takes complete game design for this, a system could be made where everything is a special ability that gets written up like a spell or a feat, instead of having stats you care about. Thor's strength items then, become like D&D staves containing strength spells, which would be things like Lift Mountain, Hurl Weapon Really Hard, etc. He might even know some of the "spells" and only rely on the items for extra ability to use it.

Someone without Thor's strength who puts them on gets the benefit as long as they meet the prerequisites (have the "spells" on their "spell list," or whatever) and can play at being Thor for a bit, but it only supplements his own powers.

The Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind let you cast Sneak on yourself. Being a Rogue does the same thing, and being a Rogue with the Cloak and Boots lets you cast it more often, just like being a wizard (who knows Invisibility) with a Wand of Invisibility does for the Invisibility spell. There should also be more than one Sneak spell, so a rogue might even get some new abilities out of the Cloak.

The Cutting Wind Sword uses the same mechanic. A cutting wind master can summon the Razor Gale on some power schedule, and the wielder of the Cutting Wind Sword can do the same (possibly with a different schedule), and the master with the sword can summon the Razor Gale more often.