The Gaming Den

What is the progression rate of Metamagic feats?

No established one.

Generally done based on spell levels, as much as that asses Sorcerers.

I try to go for 0/1/3/6/8 or 9?

Levels 1/1/5/11/15 or 17.

As opposed to 1/1/6/11/16 for Fighters and skills?

Kaelik wrote:No established one.

Generally done based on spell levels, as much as that asses Sorcerers.

I try to go for 0/1/3/6/8 or 9?

Levels 1/1/5/11/15 or 17.

As opposed to 1/1/6/11/16 for Fighters and skills?

Yeah, I like caster levels better.

Scaling to spell level is there for a reason - scalarity to caster level is up-and-out broken, for reasons ranging from Child Necromancer to Karma Beads. So honestly, stick to spell level.

Ideally, I would say 0/1/3/6/9 as a suitable metric.

God_of_Awesome wrote:

Kaelik wrote:No established one.

Generally done based on spell levels, as much as that asses Sorcerers.

I try to go for 0/1/3/6/8 or 9?

Levels 1/1/5/11/15 or 17.

As opposed to 1/1/6/11/16 for Fighters and skills?

Yeah, I like caster levels better.

Caster levels are easier to cheese, and therefore, you are retarded for wanting scale anything by them.

I scale metamagic feats off of the "magic-y" skills, which are basically modified versions of Spellcraft, Arcana, Religion, and the Planes.

This means that "metamagic feats" per se do not exist, but it allows sorcerers and medium casters like bards to not be screwed over too much.

This has the added benefit of making those skills useful for things other than monster trivia.

Blicero wrote:I scale metamagic feats off of the "magic-y" skills, which are basically modified versions of Spellcraft, Arcana, Religion, and the Planes.

This means that "metamagic feats" per se do not exist, but it allows sorcerers and medium casters like bards to not be screwed over too much.

This has the added benefit of making those skills useful for things other than monster trivia.

Seems reasonable to me.

maddd0g wrote:

Blicero wrote:I scale metamagic feats off of the "magic-y" skills, which are basically modified versions of Spellcraft, Arcana, Religion, and the Planes.

This means that "metamagic feats" per se do not exist, but it allows sorcerers and medium casters like bards to not be screwed over too much.

This has the added benefit of making those skills useful for things other than monster trivia.

Seems reasonable to me.

Except it makes abilities that say 'your x level spells get y' somewhat invalid.

Kaelik wrote:

God_of_Awesome wrote:

Kaelik wrote:No established one.

Generally done based on spell levels, as much as that asses Sorcerers.

I try to go for 0/1/3/6/8 or 9?

Levels 1/1/5/11/15 or 17.

As opposed to 1/1/6/11/16 for Fighters and skills?

Yeah, I like caster levels better.

Caster levels are easier to cheese, and therefore, you are retarded for wanting scale anything by them.

How? Are their items that boost caster level significantly because otherwise I can't think of a way for a Level 3 Cleric and Level 3 Wizard and Level 3 Mystic Theurge is a Level 9 Caster no matter how you look at it.

There is one *right in the DMG* that gives a +1 bonus to caster level.

Then the simplest way to fix that is: Progresses with your base caster level or Progresses with caster level as granted by your classes or Progresses with caster level minus items.

Seriously, not that hard to go 'Level granted caster levels only'

Spell level... or Class levels in casting classes; or Spellcraft/Concentration/Knowledge Ranks.

Things that are actually locked in, and not able to get broken.

You could seriously have
...............
Charge up Casting

"Give me some time to... POWER UP!"

You cast spells better, if you're focusing ahead of time.

You may extend the casting of a spell in order to place a Metamagic Feat you know on a spell you are casting. Every round that you make a successful Defensive casting check is one additional spell level that you don't have add to the spell before you cast it.

If used to cast spells with a duration larger than instantaneous, each spell effect takes up a single magic item slot, as per Book of Gear; to a maximum of 8 spells (and no magic items).
...............

sort of an on the spot deal; you spend a round, and get a minor metamagic feat; or a couple, and add a bigger metamagic feat.

There's no good reason to fix it to anything but Hit Dice (and skill ranks count, basically). Fixing to spell level kicks Sorcerers in the balls even harder than usual, and kicks people who cast off any slower progression harder than that.

Testicles will be coming out of characters' mouths, is what I'm saying.

Scaling to caster level is also bad. Even if you lawyer up and cut out the caster-level-boosting nonsense, you have still punished people for not compulsively keeping their caster level maxed... which is already its own sufficient punishment. There's no need to go the extra mile.

Base Attack Bonus for the Combat feats, notice how it bones the rogues and casters? Same principle for using spell level with the Metamagic feats.

There are lots of items. There are lots of class features. There are lots of feats. There are lots of things. That's why I just said "it is easier to cheese" because it is easier to cheese.

1) Rings, Ioun Stones, Beads of Karma.

2) Child Necromancer, Divine whatever that uses turning checks, various domain abilities and +1 feats.

3) Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest, Wild Mage, Chameleon PrC, Ultimate Magus, ect.

There are probably literal hundreds of ways to increase CL. You are dum, stop being dumb.

Further, I would add that you are dumb for wanting to use CL because:

1) CL varies over time.
2) CL has different values for the same character.
3) You would have to invent a different number, that is not CL but is sort of similar to it, in order to even have an actual number to base the feats on. And inventing a new number is fucking stupid, just scale it based on CL who fucking cares if you are that fucking stupid you can't remember what spells someone has.

And worst of all, your actual stupid example:

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 3 has a CL of fucking 6 and 6 (they are two separate numbers, what if he were a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Arcane PrC 1? Would his CL be 13 or 14?) not 9 anyway.

So triple fuck you.

Everytime you say something stupid, I assume you've hit bottom and can't go any lower, but then you polymorph into an Earth Elemental just so you can use Earthglide to prove me wrong.

virgileso wrote:Base Attack Bonus for the Combat feats, notice how it bones the rogues and casters? Same principle for using spell level with the Metamagic feats.

BAB was specifically being made more valuable because it is overcosted. The full casters don't need the help.

Okay, if a Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 3 has a CL of 6 and... 6 again.

Are you saying Mystic Theurge double itself and splits of from the rest like an ameoba?

Seriously, is there some obscure rule or an interpretation I'm getting wrong? In all honesty, Kaelik, I trust your judgement and would like this explained to me. Because if you can actually explain it to me instead of calling me names, perhaps I can make an informed decision and thus stop pissing you off.

Another thing, Sorcerers are screwed by 1 level. In all honesty, is that that big a problem?

God_of_Awesome wrote:Okay, if a Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 3 has a CL of 6 and... 6 again.

Are you saying Mystic Theurge double itself and splits of from the rest like an ameoba?

Seriously, is there some obscure rule or an interpretation I'm getting wrong? In all honesty, Kaelik, I trust your judgement and would like this explained to me. Because if you can actually explain it to me instead of calling me names, perhaps I can make an informed decision and thus stop pissing you off.

??? WHababmanadnada?

Now you Shapechange into a Zodar so you can wish yourself deeper into the earth. WTF.

Why would you even for one single second contemplate basing feat scaling off of caster level if you don't even FUCKING KNOW THE RULES FOR CASTER LEVEL!

NO! I'm not going to baby sit your stupid failures anymore. I'm done.

Could scaling to caster level be solved by adding: scales to CL, up to a maximum of your HD?

Alright, I talked this over with someone who is not an asshole and you are, as I expected and stated, right, Kaelik.

So, I revise my statement: Metamagic feats should scale to the number of levels you have in caster classes.

No goddamn feats, items or SHIT is gonna change that a Fighter 1 / Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 3 has 9 levels that are in caster classes, including prestige classes. If you a child necromancer or whatever that fucking feat says, you still have 9 levels that are caster classes even if your CASTER LEVEL is 10 or fucking something.

Caster levels should be the same thing, by logic, but WOTC screwed the pooch with that one as they did with everything having to do with mages in 3.5.

Akula wrote:Could scaling to caster level be solved by adding: scales to CL, up to a maximum of your HD?

If you do that, just make it equal your HD. It's easy as hell to get a caster level of your hit dice anyway.

I still have to ask why 'spell levels you can cast' is not a suitable metric.

Would it do any particular harm if a character's caster level was always equal to their hitdice? Regardless of what class configuration they happen to pick?

Does the fact that more levels are required for more spell slots keep things working properly even when a Sorc1/Pal8 can shoot a few 5d4+5 Magic Missile spells or whatever?

Lokathor wrote:Would it do any particular harm if a character's caster level was always equal to their hitdice? Regardless of what class configuration they happen to pick?

Does the fact that more levels are required for more spell slots keep things working properly even when a Sorc1/Pal8 can shoot a few 5d4+5 Magic Missile spells or whatever?

Frankly, no, except you should have said 'character level' where you said 'hit dice'.

Sinister: Well, Sorcerer does get kicked in the balls a little but I had a better reason that I frankly forgot because I take internet insult to heart so between crying from Kaelik's witty remarks and trying to tell my ass from a hole in the ground, I forgot it.

So I remark Spell Levels might be a good metric.