Nutrition

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Nutrition

Post by Username17 »

Dragon Child wrote:As someone who's working on a sci-fi setting with different races, this is really fascinating to me. Frank, do you think we could get an explanation on different types of biological nutrients, where they can come from (both in D&D-land and in modern/advanced worlds)? I've been researching this stuff lately, and all I can find are crude essays about dextro-proteins, which while usable, are kinda boring. Hell, I'd love any kind of essay focused on biology of fantasy and alien species that focuses on actual science and practicality rather than hand-wavy nonsense.
First of all, let's talk about why you need to eat. Life requires energy. It requires energy to grow, it requires energy to move, it requires energy to reproduce, and it even requires energy merely to persist. Entropy naturally causes your body to fall apart, so you need to constantly expend energy to combat that problem and maintain homeostasis. Also, your body is made of various chemicals, and some of them you can make internally (at the cost of building block materials and of course energy again), and other chemicals you need to get from an outside source. Most obviously, your body is never going to be able to do any nuclear alchemy, so any element you need (such as potassium or silicon) has to be present in some form in the materials you absorb.

Now, let's get into what protein enzymes do, because it is the core of why you need everything you need to eat. A protein is a tiny machine that does a very limited action and it is composed of only 20 different subunits. An enzyme can either facilitate an action that is entropically favored, in which case it will act spontaneously, or it can perform an action that is not favored, in which case it must be coupled to an action that is favored in order to move forward. This is what we mean when we talk about a reaction "needing energy" to work. We have a couple of standard reactions that are just aching to go forward (often Adenosine Triphosphate or "ATP" breaking done into a free Phosphate and and Adenosine Diphosphate or "ADP") and we make them contingent on another reaction going that is not favored, and then the overall reaction is favored and our enzyme can do its thing.

So when we get energy out of sugar, what we are doing is essentially burning the sugar in a series of baby steps and tying each step of the process to forming ATP (or other battery molecules like FADH). And thus we have little bits of distinct energy that we can use to power all the other activities that our cells need to do. Including basic ion house keeping, where we ship ions that are not supposed to be in the cell out of the cell and ions that are supposed to be in the cell in, and this costs energy because it's not the normal direction of entropy. And yes, I did say "burn." And that's totally literal. We start with sugar and oxygen and after a whole crap tonne of baby steps coupled to battery molecule resets, we end up with Carbon Dioxide and Water - precisely as if you'd just set a match to the sugar in open atmosphere.

Finally, let's talk about digestion and absorption. The materials you eat are not stacks of energy ready substrates to be dumped right into your cellular machinery, and even if they were it would not necessarily do you any good. Generally speaking, they are chemicals that were considered to be structural or functional in some other organism before you ate it. And that means that it is currently locked up in some sort of cell that has the overall function of keeping the outside out and the inside in. So you have to tear it to pieces before you can get anything out of it at all - that's where digestion fits in. But then there's the question of absorption, since the intestines are actually outside the body from a topological standpoint. That is to say that something that is in your stomach is no more part of you than something that is in your hand. Some things pass freely across the intestinal membrane, allowing them to enter your blood without any effort on your part, but these things go both ways, and so you can see why it might be better for some things to be actively transported (at an energy cost) on a one way trip into the body. But in any case, the point is that anything that can't make it across that membrane simply cannot be absorbed at all.

So let's say that you have a species. They need to get energy every day. If they are really comatose, they can get the energy they need from something like absorbing radiation. But in general, they are going to need to absorb some sort of energy releasing fuel that they take from more passive creatures that do simply exploit heat differences (or whatever). There is some arbitrary list of things that you can absorb that provide you with the energy you need. This list is very arbitrary. For example: animals get a lot of power from starch, which is a chain of glucose one after another; but no animal can digest cellulose, which is also a chain of glucose one after another, the only difference being that in Cellulose every other subunit is upside down and the resultant structure is more stable and requires a different enzyme to chop up - an enzyme that no animal has ever evolved in the entire history of the Earth.

Also, you'll need to absorb copies of every single chemical that your body needs to get from the outside. However, these required nutrients can often be stored much longer than mere energy, and thus don't necessarily have to be consumed every day. For example: you need Iron to make your hemoglobin go, but you don't need to eat iron on any particular day. Further, all Earth life is made out of the same set of 20 Amino Acids, and most creatures can synthesize some of those Amino Acids from others. There are in fact many more than 20 Amino Acids in the universe, and indeed 19 of the 20 that we use actually have an evil twin that is exactly the same except that the amine and the carboxillic acid parts of the amino acid are switched to opposite ends of the molecule. However, since all lif on Earth shares common decent, none of those extra Amino Acids are used for anything or coded for in any possible DNA code. But of course, on another world, there would be no special reason that our list of Amino Acids would be the ones in use. Similar inversions make other would-be nutrients into inert substances or even poison. Sorbitol, for example, is jut delicious sugar that has had one double bond Oxygen reduced to a Hydrogen and an Oxygen/Hydrogen pair on two separate bonds. O -> H + OH. And that's enough to make Sorbitol good for your teeth because the bacteria that cause tooth decay cannot eat it.

As it happens, we are evolved within the constraints of needing to survive eating the available organisms, so any DNA that required nutrients that don't exist here to survive did not survive. But yeah, life on another planet would have had different constraints and have a different list of nutrients. There is no reason to believe that you could survive for long on a diet exclusively made up of alien life forms. You might not need to supplement it with very much Earth Food (chances are good that other worlds may still use standard starch), but you would definitely need to supplement it with something.

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Post by Red Archon »

Going back to biochem lessons like this again reminded me about some of the very interesting modes of existing in D&D.

Undead. They do not really eat, they are powered by negative energy. But on a cellular level, how are they still capable of performing has humans or whatever else race they were earlier? Zombies, for example, are machines not at all unlike golems, and having seen a bunch of robots in my life, I don't find them conceptually difficult to understand. But on the other hand, robots are a series of circuits that respond to electricity passing through. With zombies, the circuits are, you know, dead cells (they really are non-functional biomass.) You have any thoughts on what kind of effects does a negative energy engine have on rotting flesh? Are the bodies revitalized, so they continue movement becoming something like a regularly operating (just dumb) organism, or does it really just follow a robotic pattern, as in following coded bursts of energy in their circuits?

Of course, the undead problem doesn't end there. Necropolitans and liches being an example; their bodily functions are all pretty much OK, except there's no real notion of how their internal operate. So, with negative energy, their machine-below-the-neck is again robotic but still under the jurisdiction of an intelligent brain. Does the brain not rot or is it simply a soul guiding the robot? Is the intelligent undead's body as entirely dead as the zombie's?

And there's still one more undead type; the ghoul/vampire, ie. "the dead that need to feast," type of solution. The vampire drinks the pint of blood required to sustain him, but does he simply urinate (or similar) it away, does the negative energy burn it as body fuel? So the question is; why would some undead need to eat and what happens to the assumably digested biomatter?
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Post by Prak »

For undead that feast, I kind of like what VtM does (as I understand it, anyway), the vampire's stomach is rewired into their circulatory system and the blood they drink is converted to a blood-like magic substance that runs their bodies. Same could work for D&D Undead that Feast.
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Post by Username17 »

Creatures powered by setting specific black boxes are of course difficult to conceptualize. And that is basically what Undead are. There's a corpus (sometimes), but they may or may not require any external energy at all.

I guess you could divvy them up into a few categories based on whether they need to or can gain energy or needed nutrients from consuming things. Something like this:
  • Vampires: Need and Can consume Energy, Need and can consume nutrients. In this model, the undead being needs to do something or other (usually feast on the living) in order to keep going, and they need to take in certain substances to keep going (such as the blood or livers of mortal victims). Basically it's just like being a normal living creature except that
  • Wraiths: Need and Can consume Energy, don't need Nutrients. In this model, the undead being pulls in energy from something (usually life force generically), but they don't actually need to worry about amino acids or anything. They do their deal and their body heals and so on.
  • Fading Ghosts: Need but can't consume Energy or nutrients. In this model, the Undead being is a temporary phenomenon. They appear or a limited amount of time and run down like a murderous wind up toy.
  • Rotting Zombies: Don't need Energy, need but can't consume nutrients. In this model, the undead creature is powered entirely by the black box, but they can't actually repair themselves from damage because their cells are dead and they can't get replacement proteins.
  • Degenerating Ghouls: Don't need Energy, Need and Can Consume Nutrients. In this model, the undead looks basically like a rotting zombie, but they can repair themselves by taking on nutrients (generally by feasting on the living).
  • Regenerating Zombies: Don't need Energy or Nutrients. In this model, the undead being is just an energizer bunny. It flows back together when injured and never needs to worry about anything.
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Post by Shatner »

In the spin-off thread you were talking about dwarven physiology and how a subterranean humanoid would probably have differences from default-human biology. What would some of these differences be? Furthermore, if you had a race of partial or complete lithovores (making minerals a portion or whole of their diet, respectively), what physiological distinctions would that necessitate?

I've hand waved a fair amount of stuff in my campaigns when it comes up but I'm curious what someone with an actual background in biology thinks.
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Post by Prak »

A purely subterranean race would be achromatic, and quite possibly blind, unless they come from caverns lit by phosphorescence of one manner or another. This means that if dwarves in your world are purely subterranean, any that live differently, such as adventurers and some merchants, would need to be completely covered when going topside, or would have to stick to nocturnal activity. Same goes for Drow, Mind Flayers, possibly aboleths and beholders.

However, with the usual assumed dwarf culture (drinking, forging, sturdiness) it should be assumed they have some manner of light down there. the light of a forge would wreak havok on aphotic creatures. So dwarves may well have developed around natural lava deposits. Meaning they're used to a certain amount of light coming from the lava, giving them colouration, however, they would need some source of vitamin d in their food (unless they produce it naturally) because the light given off by molten rock doesn't carry UV light.
Conceivably, there could phosphorescent crystals that do produce uv, but they'd be unlikely to sub for the sun for an entire race. However, UV irradiated mushrooms carry vitamin D, so maybe that's why dwarves eat mushrooms, because they can carry the vitamin D they need. If this is the case, a topside dwarf wouldn't need to continue eating such mushrooms unless he was unable to get Vitamin D from sunlight for some reason (such as he's an aphotic dwarf and the sun would hurt him).
Another source of Vitamin D is fatty fish, so perhaps the dwarves fish for specific species of fish that live in caves, such as, I don't know, Cave Eel.

On the other hand, an aphotic race could still be a craftsman race, but all their tools would be carved from rock or bone, maybe carved from metal by diamond tools, or beaten, cold-"forged" metal. They could also create weapons and tools from other creatures, such as hunting spiders for claws and chitin to make swords and armour. This, in my mind, is a lot more fitting for Drow, though, but then the drow won't be black-skinned, they'll be creepy transparent elves with no, or non-functional, eyes, possibly using echolocation for direction and such.
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Post by Manxome »

FrankTrollman wrote:Basically it's just like being a normal living creature except that
That sentence was probably not intended to stop there.
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Post by Username17 »

Prak wrote:A purely subterranean race would be achromatic, and quite possibly blind, unless they come from caverns lit by phosphorescence of one manner or another.
This sort of reductionism pushes the limits of factual accuracy. There are many creatures that live entirely in darkness and manage to have pigmentation anyway. While a pelagic species has no pressure to retain coloration, there's nothing magical that will come and take it away either. In most situations, albinism is very dangerous, and in total darkness it is not, so albinos are often more common in tunnel dwelling animals than in surface populations, if only because there is no selective pressure murdering all the albinos. Although even that is not necessarily the case.

But the key is that pigmentation serves as more than simply camouflage. What a pigment is is a chemical that has a color. Sometimes that color is important to its function, as is the case with retinal pigments, chlorophyll, and protective coloration. But other times it's a total side effect. Bile pigments don't do anything special for being green, they just happen to be green. Their actual purpose is to help in the digestion and absorption of fats as well as the discreet elimination of broken hemoglobin. The fact that they are green is as much a random contingency as the fact that our blood is blue or red depending upon its oxygen saturation. If things are behaving properly, neither bile pigments nor blood pigments should be visible to an external observer, but that doesn't make the colors go away.

There are lots of reasons why something might take on some color or another, especially in a darkened situation where no end coloration was favored or selected against because of its value as color. For example: as humans age, their lungs become black, a fact that you might not even know because you never see your lungs. It's not harmful or anything, your lungs just transport free carbon to the outer rim where it is is out of the way. Free carbon is of course coal dust, so that's black. In the absence of it making any fucking difference at all, a creature might excrete free carbon in their skin - which would make their skin black (at least in patches). Drow and derro and such being black of skin is actually totally plausible if you think of the coloration as being the result of something other than camouflage.
Shatner wrote:Furthermore, if you had a race of partial or complete lithovores (making minerals a portion or whole of their diet, respectively), what physiological distinctions would that necessitate?
Lithovorism is generally a bit hard to justify, because rocks are not actually a thing, and most ores are already at pretty low energy states. You extract energy only from pushing chemically unstable materials to their end states. So you can extract energy by rusting iron, but if you start with rust (or most iron ores) it takes energy inputs to convert it to iron.

That being said, you could very plausibly use actual metal as an energy storage system - smelting metal ore internally at the cost of lots of energy and then subsequently reoxidizing it to get some of the energy back when you needed it later. And of course there are plenty of rocks that actually are unstable that energy can be extracted from. Most obvious of course is coal, but there are a lot of such energy usable stones. Heck, the energy capacity of most crystals is fucking intense, you can get a lot of energy out of diamonds if you had some way to drain the energy out of them. The big problem with using any kind of stone as a power source is that they do not really grow back in any kind of reasonable time frame, which makes any such lithovoric race into a marauding locust swarm that has to constantly abandon old haunts and capture new territory to at new stones. Even if their stone consumption was very slow, the long run would still look like that. If society is supposed to be anything like sustainable, basic food kind of has to grow. You probably don't want societies worrying about "peak food" unless that's the story you're telling.

In the broader question of what adaptation to the underdark would look like, the answer is "it depends." Life above ground is all indirectly dependent upon the giant ball of fire in the sky. Plants sit there and absorb some of that energy and use it to convert Carbon Dioxide and Water in the air into semi-stable sugars and oxygen gas, and then animals come and eat those sugars and burn those sugars back to carbon dioxide and water and get some of the energy back out again. Further, animals can go ahead and use light from the sun as developmental cues and rely upon that. For example: humans don't just use light inputs as a template to grow retinal connections to the brain - we also generate calciferol in response to sunlight and that in turn allows us to absorb Calcium from our food. In the absence of light, we get osteoporosis. Obviously, an underground species could not afford to have pathways like that. But of course, they could very plausibly have similar weird limitations based on exposure to light. The sun puts out a lot of UV, and our bodies respond by doing constant DNA repair. A tunnel dwelling race might simply lack sunlight tolerance of any sort. Or they might respond really oddly to UV light - perhaps responding as to superficial burns and having a whole new layer of skin grow in. Really, the sky is the limit for weird biological responses to major events that do not happen at all in a creature's natural environment. For example: when humans spend long periods in low gravity environments, their bones stop producing blood altogether and their arteries run dry - turns out that basic hematopoiesis requires acceleration (normally provided every moment of very day simply by being within the gravity well of a planet) - who knew?

The big goal for developing an Underdark is to isolate some kind of renewable energy source that the underground creatures can eat year after year. That's non-trivial, but also not impossible. We have ecosystems in our own world that persist far below where any light ever shines. Volcanic vent worms are a real thing, and you could plausibly go farming and eating them if your body was adapted to doing that. Of course, there is absolutely no way in hell for a human (or anything whose digestion was especially "human like") to do that because the words "sulfide oxidation" do not mean good things when put together. Basically a lot of those critters get their energy by making sulfuric acid out of volcanic vent sulfide - and things that can eat that are going to be pretty different in their food choices from human beings.

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Post by Lokathor »

Prak_Anima wrote:However, with the usual assumed dwarf culture (drinking, forging, sturdiness) it should be assumed they have some manner of light down there. the light of a forge would wreak havok on aphotic creatures. So dwarves may well have developed around natural lava deposits.
And here's where we get into the sticky situation of Biology vs A Wizard Did It.

Dwarves didn't "develop" anywhere in the usual biological sense of the word with generations and generations of slow mutation and selection. A powerful dude sat down one day and said "Huh, I want some short and tough guys, then I'll teach them to drink lots and make axes, and it'll be great," and then he did it. Now maybe they're mutant humans, or mutant giants, or crafted from sand and stone stuffed with positive energy and turned biological, or they're not even "from" anything, they're just generated out of "raw power" itself (divine, arcane, primal, psionic, whatever the hell). Their basic structure could even be held in place by divine will or cosmic law or what have you.

So on top of everything that Frank said, even if you do want to have logical and plausible creatures in some places, you don't have to have it in all places, or even at all times within a single creature.
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Post by Username17 »

Lokathor wrote:Dwarves didn't "develop" anywhere in the usual biological sense of the word with generations and generations of slow mutation and selection.
That may or may not be the case. But it does not matter. An intelligent designer, while epistemologically interesting, is actually totally irrelevant to life as it exists today. Because Darwin's theory is actually a tautology. Even if a species was created in a week by a loving deity, they'd still be evolving now, and would still be subject to the same limitations as everything that evolved without intervention.

Every creature that is alive must be able to survive in its environment. And that is all that evolution offers or demands: that everything alive can survive in the environment it is in. If anything is born, whether it be the mutant offspring of a continuous lineage that runs to the first microbe that added A and T to the Genetic code or the custom designed handiwork of a skilled biomechanic, the result is precisely the same: if it can survive in its environment it may live to have offspring of its own, and if it cannot, then that is the end of the story.

Neither evolution nor design guaranty the simplest, most efficient, most effective, or "best" solution to any problem. But either way you are guaranteed to be something survivable or die trying. Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory in the real world because it has no consequence. Even in a fantasy world where you could actually go have a beer with the designer and totally ask it what the deal with frenulums was - it still would have no biological consequences.

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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

:facepalm:
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Post by Archmage »

Two nitpicks:

One: There totally are animals that can digest cellulose. Termites! They're totally in the kingdom Animalia. And while it's true that most termite species rely on gut flora to produce cellulases, there are a few that produce their own (although gut flora apparently still do most of the work). Seriously.

Two: Human blood isn't blue. Ever. It just looks that way due to light refraction through the skin. Ask a phlebotomist!

That said, nice mini-essay and commentary, especially the bits about evolutionary pressure. I'll have to throw out some more thoughts later.
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Post by A Man In Black »

FrankTrollman wrote:That may or may not be the case. But it does not matter. An intelligent designer, while epistemologically interesting, is actually totally irrelevant to life as it exists today. Because Darwin's theory is actually a tautology. Even if a species was created in a week by a loving deity, they'd still be evolving now, and would still be subject to the same limitations as everything that evolved without intervention.
That a wizard did it does not preclude a wizard from continuing to do it. There's no reason a race can't overcome biological limitations with a plot device, even an unnamed and diffuse plot device.
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Post by TavishArtair »

I think that is why Frank admitted Undead run off, essentially, a black box. Just, people don't usually think of dwarves and such as running off black boxes. Dragons, maybe.
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Post by A Man In Black »

TavishArtair wrote:I think that is why Frank admitted Undead run off, essentially, a black box. Just, people don't usually think of dwarves and such as running off black boxes. Dragons, maybe.
In more than one setting, [race] believes fervently that they are the chosen people of race, created by their deity to be perfectly suited to [chosen territory/terrain] and sustained by their faith. You can have races who believe that and and are indeed correct in doing so, and that's perfectly reconcilable with races who live on purely biological constraints.

You can also get plots out of this, especially when it's dwarves-who-only-live-underground-because-Moradin-lets-them versus races who are actually adapted to life underground.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

I really like these sorts of posts.

It makes it easier to insert this sort of game, into geography that the players already know.

Having material like this makes transplanting the players a lot easier. The less 'arbitrary' stuff you have in a setting, the easier it is to explain to people, without having to use "black box" type stuff.

Being able to explain that a Lich, is not a Regenerating Zombie, lets the players think of different ways to play their character, and several types of Undead are like this. Meaning that you can determine their sorts of personalities a lot easier.

Regenerating Zombie:
-Basically anything with any sort of innate healing, and no described need to feed.
-There are really, no undead like this in the MM.

Most Undead are basically skeletons or zombies, with more power.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lokathor »

FrankTrollman wrote:That may or may not be the case. But it does not matter. An intelligent designer, while epistemologically interesting, is actually totally irrelevant to life as it exists today. Because Darwin's theory is actually a tautology. Even if a species was created in a week by a loving deity, they'd still be evolving now, and would still be subject to the same limitations as everything that evolved without intervention.
A Man In Black covered my main point, but I'll expand on it a bit if people don't mind. In DnD-land, science went out the window when you start talking about planes of existence and gods. Raptorians could have bones made of steel and fly anyways because of the blessings of the air god. I think it was even you or K that said something to the effect of "Chimera and Pegasus don't fly because they have wings, they have wings because they can fly". Evolution is valid when you let real world style natural forces go to town, but when you've got superluminal transplanar energies flying around, not everything needs to be under any sort of rules. The consequences of a race being intelligently designed is that dwarves end up similar to how you described vampires. They shouldn't be able to persist on their own, but because of some sort of magical process they just do anyways. Maybe they don't have kidneys, and they just drink like mad without dying because the "sacrifice" of alcohol sends power to Moradin and he in turn send back the energy to complete any number of biological processes and keep them alive.

Particularly, a Dwarf or other creature that has a 300 year life cycle will go through fewer generations than shorter lived creatures, and a fantasy world like DnD doesn't even have to be any particular age in the first place. The "modern dwarf" could easily be part of only the 12th generation of dwarves ever, which isn't (usually) enough generations to usefully select for anything in particular.

Hell, you could have lithovores who eat rock just because they're supposed to, it magically converts into energy that they can use because of cosmic decree, and then they get more rock from elemental portals. Which also explains where the "empty" sections of the earth elemental plane come from (or go to). It's just weirder to come up with a society based around that kind of thing.
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Post by Cynic »

seriously, this thread has the feel of an entire section of the Cryptonomicon and about one of the first rivalries between the hero and one of the Villains.

Neal Stephenson goes into a decent amount of detail on biology and Frank's and following posts had me just itching to dig the novel out. Too bad, it's across the world from me right now...
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Post by Prak »

I was thinking of those transparent bugs and cave fish and stuff, and thought that things that lived in the complete absence of light were usually achromatic, but thanks for teaching me otherwise. I'm glad there's an actual possible explanation for drow being black.

That said, I'm really liking the idea of drow being so vulnerable to light and heat that they can't operate forges and have to find all kinds of other stuff to use for weaponry and armour, like gems (possibly grown into shape), cold-pounded metal, carved rock, and creature bits. This would change their game stats, however, by giving them an extra vulnerability.

Meanwhile, I'm also liking the idea of dwarves developing near lava vents and using geothermal energy for forging. Kind of like minor azers, I guess.

As for biology vrs. "A wizard did it"...
Which provides the more interesting and satisfying story? I personally think "AWDI" is cliche and actually explaining creature biology, especially how it's affected by the existence of ambient magic, is much more interesting.
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Post by Ice9 »

A Man In Black covered my main point, but I'll expand on it a bit if people don't mind. In DnD-land, science went out the window when you start talking about planes of existence and gods.
Well sure, but "A Wizard did it" isn't very interesting to talk about, because that sentence is pretty much the beginning and end of it. If you're going that route, then fine - but that doesn't mean there's no point talking about how things could work if a Wizard didn't do it.
Regenerating Zombie:
-Basically anything with any sort of innate healing, and no described need to feed.
-There are really, no undead like this in the MM.
How is a Lich not like this? While they have a negative energy touch, they don't need to do it to feed, and in fact can heal themselves with it. For that matter, I think they also heal at the normal rate (being intelligent Undead). Also the Ghost, which can even bring itself back when destroyed.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

There was a fairly good article in Pyramid Magazine Online about subterranean food sources. It led to the infamous 'Dwarven Yogurt Crisis' that one of my games was based around.

It's kind of long, so I'm going to put it behind spoiler tags:
What Do You Eat When You're Subterranean?

Underground races add spice to many fantasy worlds, but keeping them from starving requires a few more ingredients. All life forms need a source of energy to fuel their ongoing (and ultimately losing) battle with entropy. There are two basic strategies for obtaining energy on Earth. Some organisms, called autotrophs or "self-is-food," can capture energy from non-living sources in their environment. The others, called heterotrophs or "other-is- food," eat organic materials (such as autotrophs, heterotrophs, decaying bodies, or waste products) that contain energy originally captured by autotrophs. An underground race can eat autotrophs or heterotrophs or be autotrophs and capture their own energy.

On Earth, all energy-capture strategies (two autotrophic methods plus heterotrophism) were developed by various bacteria. Photosynthesis, the ultimate basis for nearly all life on the planet, captures the energy of sunlight. Chemosynthesis, the only known autotrophic exception to photosynthesis, captures the energy released when inorganic substances are oxidized. Heterotrophs are fueled by oxidizing organic compounds created by other living things. Rather than come up with something new, the ancestors of multi-celled life shanghaied one or more types of bacteria and converted them into little "engines" for their cells. Plants have chloroplasts (descended from photosynthesizing bacteria) and mitochondria (descended from heterotrophic bacteria). Fungi and animals have only mitochondria. It may seem odd that plants have mitochondria, but they need to live even when the sun is not shining. They store sunlight energy in organic compounds and use their mitochondria to tap it later.

Underground autotrophs have to use a means of energy capture other than photosynthesis, because sunlight is rare in deep caverns. The only known autotrophs that do not photosynthesize are chemosynthetic bacteria. They oxidize such inorganic substances as elemental sulfur, thiosulfate, hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, nitrite, ferrous ions, or hydrogen gas, depending on the species. Most require oxygen, though not necessarily in high concentrations. Some types live in aerated soil and play key roles in the planetary sulfur and nitrogen cycles. Some grow in hot springs, such as those in Yellowstone Park. Other types live on the ocean bottom near sources of hydrogen sulfide and methane. These include hydrothermal vents (underwater volcanoes), whale carcasses, and cold-seeps. In cold- seeps, sulfate and methane from groundwater or sediments are converted to hydrogen sulfide by specialized bacteria.

Humans eat bacteria in vinegar, yogurt, and cheese, but cultivating a foodstuff composed exclusively of microscopic organisms might be challenging. The bacteria humans eat are in an organic medium, such as milk, which is itself a nutritious source of digestible energy. Chemosynthetic bacteria, on the other hand, have mediums such as soil or sulfur water. Luckily, there is nothing to prevent the GM from stepping in and inventing a multi-celled autotroph with chemosynthetic "chloroplasts." This would be an entirely new kingdom, and the GM would have enormous latitude in creating its characteristics. It could easily be as different from plants as the two heterotrophic kingdoms, animals and fungi, are from each other. It could grow in underground hot springs like seaweed or prowl caverns in search of the right sediments. The new kingdom might have a single species or thousands, might be common or extremely rare. It could be a refugee from an ancient time, dependent on the race it sustained. A real-life example of a species carried over from an earlier age by human intervention is the ginkgo, a beautiful and once- common tree that probably began to die out when dinosaurs stopped spreading its seeds. It may owe its existence today to being cultivated for centuries in Chinese monasteries and palace gardens.

Of course, the GM need not be limited to the energy-capture mechanisms found on Earth. Other energy sources could theoretically support autotrophic life. The GM could invent bacteria that utilized these sources . . . or even go so far as inventing multi-celled organisms that, at the dawn of time, had press-ganged the fantasy bacteria into providing them energy-capture services.

Hot objects emit photons (mostly in the infrared), and these could be captured and utilized in a manner very similar to photosynthesis. For example, an organism could capture energy from the heat radiated by a magma pool. Of course, magma chambers are not known for being particularly safe or stable habitats. Underwater, life can only capture heat energy indirectly, because the radiated photons are quickly absorbed by the water. However, heat can add energy to chemical reactions and make them potential sources of chemosynthetic energy. For example, at hydrothermal vents, magma superheats seawater, which causes the water to react with dissolved sulfate. The heat energy is stored in the chemical bonds of hydrogen sulfide. Chemosynthetic bacteria break these bonds and capture the stored energy. The bacteria release sulfate as a waste product, and the sulfur cycle closes. This situation could also exist in caverns, in an underground stream bathing a magma pocket, for instance. This type of heat energy capture is not feasible on land because everything is roughly at equilibrium and lacks the necessary steep temperature gradients.

Radioactive elements are present underground, and a fantasy bacterium might harvest radioactive energy. Tending radiosynthetic species, happily growing on uranium deposits, could be a challenge for the farmers. The invented species would have to be less sensitive to radioactive damage than Earth species are. This is not as unreasonable as it seems. Oxygen is very reactive and was probably highly toxic to the original life on Earth (when oxygen was rare), but modern life is quite oxygen tolerant.

Many fantasy worlds have an additional source of energy: raw magic. A very clear idea of what mana is and how it behaves would be helpful when inventing a manasynthetic species. Is mana restricted to mages or does it exist in the environment? If only mages can produce mana, then a manasynthetic species would probably be created and sustained by them, like an animated skeleton. However, if mages have inhabited the world for a billion years, life forms could have evolved to capture energy from them. Also, being created by mages does not preclude a certain amount of autonomy if the spell is self- sustaining. For example, a mage may have created autotrophs with a self-propagating create-food spell. Modern mages would have to know the spells necessary to supply the autotrophs with energy, but would not necessarily know how to create more of them.

If mana is a natural energy, akin to radiation, free-living manasynthetic species could have evolved independently. Then the question is whether a mana source always radiates the same amount of energy. Plants, especially plants grown under low light, can be severely damaged when suddenly exposed to high photon flux densities. Therefore, sudden pulses of mana or large magical discharges could have disastrous consequences for underground manasynthetic farms.

If the members of the underground race do not eat autotrophs (and are not autotrophs themselves), they will have to live on heterotrophs. Heterotrophs require access to organic material, created ultimately by autotrophs. If those autotrophs are photosynthetic, the organic material will have to be transported underground after it is created. One way to move organic material is for the race to carry it. The gardening ants are a real-life example of an underground race that eats fungus raised on plant material that they bring down from the surface.

The underground race will probably have a source of water in their caverns. If the water flows from the surface, it could carry a load of organic materials: leaf detritus, insects, microorganisms, partially decayed animals. These could be consumed by heterotrophic bacteria, fungi, non-green plants, insects, or even fish. In a similar manner, most of the primary energy for many stream ecosystems is supplied by the land plants that grow along their banks. Fungi could theoretically bring organic material underground for themselves. A mushroom is the relatively small reproductive structure of a large fungus that snakes in nearly invisible threads throughout the soil. So if it is possible to reach the soil layer from the cavern, it is reasonable to imagine a fungus that "fruits" underground. Truffles actually do, but in the soil, not in caves.

Of course, a cave is not a good place for a mushroom. Above-ground, wind can spread its spores, and gravity will deposit them on the rich, top layer of soil. Young fungi can begin life in a smorgasbord of partially decayed organic matter. This would not be the case underground. Left to its own devices, this fungus mutant would probably die out quickly. However, a mutant that could not survive naturally will do fine with outside help. For example, the bananas in the grocery store are the seedless fruit of a sterile plant -- evolutionarily a dead end, but faithfully cultivated by banana-eating humans. If the underground race could find a single mutant with subterranean mushrooms, they could then help it to survive. They might have to gather the spores and stick them to the roof of a cavern to get them nearer the surface. Perhaps they would have to fertilize the newly sprouted spores (with the bodies of dead dwarves?) so the young fungi could survive until they reached the organic material in the upper soil layers. The race would want to control most of the caverns in the vicinity, since the fungus would probably send out mushrooms wherever it pleased.

One problem with fungi is digestibility. Fungi are a good source of some vitamins, minerals, and proteins, but they contain very little fat, sugar, or calories -- that is, digestible energy. That might be encouraging to dieters, but it makes them a poor choice for a race's primary energy source. Most of the carbohydrates in fungi are in the form of difficult-to-digest chitin cell walls. Plants have cell walls of equally indigestible cellulose. Most herbivores cultivate specialized, cellulose-digesting, heterotrophic bacteria in their stomachs to make it possible for them to eat plants. Tolkien probably did not envision ruminant dwarves, but it could be done.

On the other hand, the bacteria could be applied externally, the same way humans make yogurt. Since yogurt-making is beyond Stone Age technology, such a race would have been reasonably advanced before they stopped foraging on the surface and began to live exclusively underground. (Yogurt is made by heating the medium to destroy dangerous -- or just yucky -- bacteria from the environment, adding a little yogurt bacteria culture, stirring, and keeping it gently warm until the bacteria multiply and partially break down the medium.) Death or loss of the starter culture would be fatal for such a race. Analogously, queen gardening ants carry starter fungus on their nuptial flights, and if the starter is lost or dies, the new colony is doomed.

Gardening ants solved the problem of obtaining digestible energy from fungi by "selectively breeding" domestic fungi with traits that wild fungi do not have. Some domestic fungi secrete specialized enzymes onto the leaf-fragment beds the ants prepare for them. The enzymes break down the leaves and cause sugars to form on them. These sugars are then licked up by worker ants. The fungi also produce tiny, nutrient-rich "fruit." Fungus domestication is obviously possible. However, unless one is playing Ants and Burrows, it might be difficult to sustain an RPG race on the swollen tips of mold hairs and sugar licked off a fungus.

Decaying material in soil is not the only source of organic compounds found underground. Methane is often found in fossil fuel deposits, and bacteria that oxidize methane are an important energy source for communities such as those on cold-seeps. Certain heterotrophic bacteria are able to use petroleum as an energy source. However, fossil fuels are often loaded with heavy metals. The bacteria (and presumably invented species using the same energy source) are able to deal with this, but that does not necessarily make them edible. Many surface plants that are heavy metal tolerant take the metals up and concentrate them in their tissues. An underground race with such a food source would have to have a means of dealing with high levels of heavy metals, either externally (through food preparation technology) or internally (by being tolerant themselves).

Transport ceases to be a problem if the autotrophic source of organic materials is already underground. A GM could have the race farm heterotrophs that eat one of the chemosynthetic, radiosynthetic, or manasynthetic autotrophs already discussed.

An unusual source of organic material for a radically designed fantasy world is true spontaneous generation. It is believed that the first life on Earth was heterotrophic and lived on spontaneously generated organic material. Laboratory experiments have successfully replicated such spontaneous generation, but only under conditions that bear little similarity to modern-day Earth. Early Earth probably had warm, shallow oceans, active volcanoes, and radioactive rocks under an atmosphere of water vapor, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, nitrogen, methane, and ammonia. The atmosphere was alive with energy, rent by lightning and bombarded with ultraviolet radiation. Molecular oxygen was essentially absent, and an oxygen- rich atmosphere seems to make the spontaneous generation of organic material impossible. Since lightning and ultraviolet radiation are not too common underground, the GM will have to use an alternative energy source such as radioactivity, volcanism, or magical discharges. Such conditions might even be possible on an Earth-like world in completely sealed caverns. For a race from such caverns, the surface would have a hostile, poisonous atmosphere. Traveling there would be like visiting another planet. The race would probably require a life-support suit (or a protection-from-oxygen spell) and not be able to digest surface food. Another difficulty with spontaneously generated organic matter is that it does not accumulate quickly. It probably inspired the early evolution of all existing energy-capture methods by becoming scarce.

In some organisms that the underground race might eat, the line between heterotrophs and autotrophs blurs. This happens when a heterotroph and an autotroph form a partnership and live entwined with each other. The heterotroph usually provides defense and raw materials from the environment; the autotroph captures energy for them both. The heterotroph is usually much larger and accounts for the appearance of the combo-organism. On land, heterotrophic fungi and autotrophic bacteria or algae form partnerships known as lichens. In cold-seeps and hydrothermal vents, several types of animals, including shrimp, worms, mussels, and clams, have formed partnerships with chemosynthetic bacteria. A GM wishing to create one of these life forms should realize that the major difference between them and true autotrophs is that the partnership was formed much more recently than the dawn of life on Earth. Therefore, both partners have close relatives that are not married (not all fungi are lichens). Sometimes the partners can be separated, if only in a laboratory, and grow independently. The autotrophs usually live within their partners' bodies, not within their cells. Lichens look much different than free-living fungi, because the fungus grows compactly instead of branching out in search of food. The autotroph partners in lichens are photosynthetic, but fantasy lichen could have chemosynthetic, radiosynthetic, or manasynthetic bacteria. Several lichens have been traditionally eaten by humans, including the arctic reindeer moss and desert manna lichen. Since the energy source is the autotrophic partner, lichens may be a better source of digestible energy than are fungi.

Certain shrimp farm chemosynthetic bacteria on their exoskeletons and feed their farms by swimming to "fields" of dissolved sulfur compounds. The shrimp then graze bacteria off their own bodies. Tube worms supply their bacteria with inorganic carbon, oxygen, hydrogen sulfide, and nitrate that they absorb from the surrounding water. The substances are transported in the worm's blood to the internal organ where it keeps its bacteria. The worms then excrete the bacteria's waste products: sulfate and protons. The worms may live to be 250 years old in the stable environment of cold seeps. Adult tube worms have no mouths or digestive systems since, like plants, they have an internal energy source. It is believed that the larvae are born with mouths and eat their bacteria when they begin life.

One type of mussel contains two kinds of bacteria: some that oxidize methane and some that oxidize sulfur compounds. Presumably, this allows it to change gears if one source of energy is depleted. Clams partnering with chemosynthetic bacteria harbor these bacteria within the cells of their gills. The bacteria are passed on to the next clam generation in the eggs. The partnership is so tight that attempts to culture the bacteria independently in the laboratory have failed. These clams are probably the closest thing on Earth to a chemosynthetic plant.

An adventurous GM might want to have an underground race whose members are combo-organisms and have their own internal engines cranking out energy. This does not mean that the race can just sit back and forget about food, however. They will have to supply their internal autotrophs with all the minerals, fluids, and gases they require as raw materials.

Some GMs will prefer designing a single food-species for their underground race, since it involves less work (and fewer opportunities for over-zealous players to ask sticky questions). However, many of the problems discussed above cease to be an issue if the underground race is part of a diverse ecosystem. Mushrooms or lichens do not have to be perfectly digestible if, as is the case for humans, they make up only part of the diet. Having sufficient hot- spring surface area to cultivate paper-thin bacterial mats is not so critical when they are a delicacy and not the race's sole source of energy. There are a few real world examples of ecosystems based entirely upon chemosynthetic bacteria.

The most famous chemosynthesis-based ecosystems are at deep-sea hydrothermal vents. Chemosynthetic bacteria oxidizing sulfur compounds support a host of heterotrophs such as fish, shrimp, snails, crabs, clams, mussels, barnacles, sponges, and octopuses. Tube worms can grow to more than a meter long, easily large enough to sustain an underground RPG race. This type of ecosystem is not restricted to the deep, lightless regions of the ocean, but it is much more striking in places devoid of photosynthesis-based life.

An example of a chemosynthesis-based cavern ecosystem is in Movile Cave in Romania. It consists of limestone caves partially submerged in hot springs that are rich in hydrogen sulfide, ammonium ions, and methane. Prior to discovery, the caves were sealed off from the world above. They have a specific atmosphere enriched in methane with up to ten times more carbon dioxide and one third less oxygen than the outside air. Microbial mats made up of bacteria and fungi float on the water surface, adhere to cave walls and sit on submerged cavern floors. Bacterial species include some that oxidize methane and some that oxidize sulfur compounds. The deep waters of the cave have no oxygen, so the submerged mats may consist entirely of heterotrophs that feed on methane or material falling from above. The microbial mats feed terrestrial and aquatic animals such as snails, worms, pillbugs, millipedes, springtails, and bristletails. Carnivores include blind predatory leeches, water scorpions, pseudoscorpions, centipedes, and spiders. The chemical differences between photosynthesis and chemosynthesis likely mean that, in a closed system like Movile Cave, the development of an unusual atmosphere is inevitable. However, a chemosynthetic ecosystem can probably form even if the cavern's atmosphere is not isolated from the surface. (The Movile Cave system has apparently survived being exposed to the surface by the shaft its discoverers constructed.)

Designing an ecosystem requires extra effort, but it will make the underground race more sustainable and less susceptible to famine disasters. The first building block of an ecosystem is an energy source. The GM can use one or several of the energy sources discussed here. Each energy source needs at least one autotrophic species to capture it. Bacteria are the most likely autotrophs, but they can be supplemented by some multi-celled species. Heterotrophic microbes and insects could graze on the bacteria and provide food for larger predators. Decomposers (usually bacteria and fungi) must be present to prevent the ecosystem from collapsing with all its raw materials tied up in dead bodies and waste products. Each ecosystem component is a potential source of food. For instance, the underground race might sweeten their lichen tea with ants full of leaf-mold sugars, roast the moles that live on bacteria-grazing insects, spicing them with microbial mat (for that sulfur tang), and make salads of subterranean mushrooms and chemosynthetic seafood, sprinkled with manasynthetic lice the mage combs out of his beard.

Even lichen-like organisms might benefit from a varied diet. Hunting down outside sources of energy is probably not effective for something with an internal energy source, but the race might eat to gain nutrients. Carnivorous plants, for example, cannot obtain sufficient nitrogen from the soils they prefer, so they photosynthesize for their energy and eat insects as a nitrogen source. Feeding an underground race requires, first and foremost, a source of energy. The GM will have to decide what this energy source is and how the race acquires it. This includes deciding if they are using the energy source directly (autotrophic), eating something that can utilize the energy source (eating autotrophs), eating something that is getting its energy from other living organisms (eating heterotrophs), or cultivating an autotroph inside their bodies (acting like a lichen). Some energy sources can be present underground naturally (precursors to chemosynthesis, heat, radioactivity, mana). Others, like sunlight, have to be transported there. Organic compounds produced using sunlight can be transported by the race or by water, transported by the food source (hypothetical underground mushrooms), or buried (coal and oil). Although it is possible to design a race with a single food source, creating an ecosystem with a combination of energy sources and food types provides more variety and may ultimately make for a more interesting game.
For the Sake of Appearances

"Plants" based on chemosynthetic bacteria would probably not be green, since the green color comes from pigments used in photosynthesis. Some bacteria that oxidize hydrogen sulfide have particles of inorganic sulfur in their cells, for instance. Images from Movile Cave can be found in the documentary Ends of the Earth: The Secret Abyss of the Movile Cave. The following websites also have images of chemosynthetic life on Earth.

Bacteria That Oxidize Sulfur Compounds
* Thiothrix -- http://www.lpi.usra.edu/education/EPO/y ... bvspring1/
* Sulfolobus -- http://web.umr.edu/~microbio/BIO221_199 ... ricus.html
* Sulfolobus -- http://biology.kenyon.edu/Microbial_Bio ... lobus.html

Bacteria That Oxidize Nitrogen Compounds
* Nitrosomonas -- http://biology.kenyon.edu/Microbial_Bio ... monas.html
* Nitrosospira -- http://genome.jgi-psf.org/finished_micr ... .home.html

Bacteria That Oxidize Iron Compounds
* Thiobacillus ferrooxidans -- http://bugscope.beckman.uiuc.edu/member ... 40x480.jpg

Bacteria That Oxidize Hydrogen Gas
* Xanthobacter -- http://141.150.157.117:8080/prokPUB/cha ... MPLETE.htm

Animals with Chemosynthetic Bacterial Partners
* Tube worms, Riftia -- http://www.marinetech.org/nine_degrees/ ... e_worm.jpg
* Tube worms, Riftia -- http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/tube_worms.html
* Clams, Calyptogena -- http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/hydrocarbons/clams.html
* Mussels, Bathymodiolus -- http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorati ... ussel.html
* Shrimp, Rimicaris exoculata -- http://www.geocities.com/magnus_johnson ... h/rimi.htm

Cave Microbial Mats
* http://www.geo.utexas.edu/chemhydro/Low ... bitats.htm

Cold Seeps and Hydrothermal Vents
* http://www.mbari.org/news/homepage/2005 ... #aboutcbcs
* http://www.ifremer.fr/exocetd/gb/gallery/galleryeco.htm
* http://www.noc.soton.ac.uk/ventox/files ... /atos.html

Consulted materials:
* Campbell, Neil A. 1990 and 1993. Biology. Second and Third editions. The Benjamin/Cummings Publishing Company, Inc. Redwood City, California.
* Niklas, Karl J. 1997. The Evolutionary Biology of Plants. The University of Chicago Press. Chicago, Illinois.
* Raven, Peter H., Ray F. Evert, and Susan E. Eichhorn. 1992. Biology of Plants. Fifth edition. Worth Publishers. New York, New York.
* Taiz, Lincoln and Eduardo Zeiger. 1991. Plant Physiology. The Benjamin/Cummings Publishing Company, Inc. Redwood City, California.

--Sierra Dawn Stoneberg Holt
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virgil
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Post by virgil »

Even were you to just have a wizard do it, that brings into question the history behind the race's creation (which can have major ramifications), and how far into their biology the wizard went to provide the magic. Are the enchantments completely self-sustaining unto each generation? Do they require a ritualistic quid pro quo (rituals, prohibitions, etc)? These kind of questions and their answers, coupled with the magic system itself, can theoretically be as elaborate as any 'normal' nutrition contemplation.

And I for one love this kind of detail.
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Post by NoDot »

Cells preform magic rituals!

What?
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Post by Lokathor »

Prak_Anima wrote:As for biology vrs. "A wizard did it"...
Which provides the more interesting and satisfying story? I personally think "AWDI" is cliche and actually explaining creature biology, especially how it's affected by the existence of ambient magic, is much more interesting.
If people need food you can take away their food. If a wizard did it and continues to do it, there's still no reason you can't take away their food. If dwarves drink beer because they need it for moradin power you can take their beer. If elves are graced by Corellon's might to live long and eat leaves then you can lock them in a cursed box to torture and starve them. Wizards can undo what other Wizards did.

If you want a boring Wizard Did It explanation you can have that, but you can also have a boring diet for your creatures that are 100% biological, "elves eat whatever humans eat" is just as boring. If you want to have complex explanations that have all kinds of odd implications and ramifications.

My point is that things that couldn't possibly be used as food and goods can still be goods in a world with magical biology and nonsense botany. They don't even have to be core creatures, they can be farm creatures or plants that other creatures and plants end up feeding on. If you try to explain that plants "eat" the dirt and sunlight to a child they'll find it equally fantastical I'm sure.
Last edited by Lokathor on Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Twelve generations is indeed more than enough time to see selection in action. If you can make non-sterile offspring, you are fit. If you can't, you're out of the gene pool. You won't necessarily see competitive advantages with a small cycle of generations, but you will see the harsh binary finality of Darwinian allowances. Whether capabilities are granted by DNA or sorcery, it is still the same reality of selection that will determine if the species is fit or not. Remember that Darwin himself had no idea that DNA existed, and never even knew about genes and independent selection of traits - because he couldn't read German and could not make any sense out of Mendel's pea research.

Yes, it's entirely possible for a species to survive by symbiosis with a bacteria, another multicellular organism, or even a powerful wizard. But they still have to survive, because otherwise they will die. That's the Darwinistic tautology. If the combined total of their traits is not enough for them to make non-sterile offspring, then if you come back in three generations' time, they will all be dead.

Anyway, that Pyramid Article is really cool. Also, there totally are bacteria that live in radiation. Radiodurans, for example. So the whole idea of autotrophic plant-like organisms that grow on Uranium deposits is totally plausible.

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