Open-ended powers: illusions, cantrips, etc.

[K]

Ok, someone PMed my with some requests for what someone can do with open-ended powers like 3e' Cantrip and Silent Image.

So first, I have to tell people that 90% of the abilities are based on circumstances, so it wouldn't do any good to tell you what I did because you'll never be in exactly the same situation. That being said, here are some general and easy uses:

Silent Image:
-Hunter's Blind. Planning an ambush? How about a perfect cover of an illusion? Simply make it as big as the party, hide inside, keep concentrating, and drop when you attack.

-make illusions of yourself like a poor man's Mirror Image, wasting enemy attacks.

-make illusions of you on your enemies so that their allies attack them.

-make illusions of common spells. Not many people are really going to test if that Wall of Fire is real or illusion. Perfect for barriers, cages, and general control. Illusions of fog are actually better than real fog or spells that create fog since you and your friends can see right through them. Make illusions of summons like shadows or ghosts or other quiet things, fake gates to other worlds, and give the illusion of life to statues or other inanimate objects.

-stationary disguise. Sure, this is no Disguise Self, but if you don't need to exit the area you can wear an illusion like an oversized suit.

-the bridge that isn't. Near a cliff, river, etc? Make an illusion of land or floor that isn't there, and lure enemies there. Heck, a little work with any number of spells and making tiger pits is super easy.

-the guy that isn't. Make an illusion of someone the target trusts, and have the illusion wave them over, flip them off, whatever. Perfect for leading people into traps.

-distractions. All the fun of burning barns without none of that nasty fire. Fights, dancing girls, enemy armies coming through the trees, etc.

Cantrip, also known as Prestidigitation:
- the 3e version allows you to transform one small object into another, but the new form was a brittle as chalk. This meant locks and the like were basically never a problem, since you just changed them in something chalky and then broke them. Changed in 3.5 to not do this.

-Make an object. OK, so it makes extremely fragile 1 .lb objects that can't be used as tools, weapons or, spell components(and we assume they can't duplicate spell effects, whatever that means in this context)..... but that's huge. Your DM will have to make the call if any of these things duplicate spell effects like: make a pound of poison, make a pound of gold or gems so you can spend it, make helium or hydrogen balloons to ferry messages up cliffs, make a cap to jam a lock, make fake messages that are perfect forgeries, make a .lb of something that reacts explosively with water like sodium and set up a candle fuse (as a distraction, or a timed firebomb), make obviously magical objects that you bluff people with.... the sky is the limit.

-Flavor things: make a poisonous thing taste like candy, or make candy taste like poison. Feed to monsters and let hijinks ensue.

-Color things: got any coins from another country, world, or plane? Make them gold-colored and spend! Not like anyone knows what Krynn steel coins are in Greyhawk (weights will differ, which can be explained by differing qualities of gold). Make disguises by changing the color of your clothes, make make-up by coloring ash from the fireplace, make your clothes perfectly black or camoed for that circumstance bonus to Hide....

- Move a 1 lb object. From across the room, lift latches, poison drinks, put incriminating objects into people's pockets, set off traps, drop poison needles onto people from a safe distance, etc.

-Chill and warm. Keep ice frozen for those It's Cold Outside spells, make old dead bodies get that new dead body warmth or the opposite, make undead have warm gloved handshakes, pretend to be undead with your cold gloved handshake... go crazy!



OK, so there is a short list to spur ideas in your own game. I could keep going, but as I said a lot will depend on you being creative in your own game and taking advantage of the situation.

For bonus points, imagine what you can do with Shadow Conjuration, Limited Wish, or the other open-ended spells.

[RobbyPants]

-make illusions of you on your enemies so that their allies attack them.

...

-stationary disguise. Sure, this is no Disguise Self, but if you don't need to exit the area you can wear an illusion like an oversized suit.

I'm not sure how these interact with what the SRD says on figments:

Figment

A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Does making something appear over something else count as making it look like something else?

[Surgo]

I played with K in a game where he used Silent Image to do a lot of similar shit to what's listed here, and while I knew in theory it was a really useful spell I had no idea how useful until he whipped it out.

K, I don't know how you think so fast sometimes.

[Lokathor]

-Color things: got any coins from another country, world, or plane? Make them gold-colored and spend! Not like anyone knows what Krynn steel coins are in Greyhawk (weights will differ, which can be explained by differing qualities of gold).

Actually, the size will differ. Coins are always 50 to a pound, so based on density the coins will be larger or smaller.

[The Man Who Killed Death]

Does making something appear over something else count as making it look like something else?

No, as long as you are making that figment actually over (or around) the other object/whatever. You can make a "suit" around yourself, as long as those dimensions can be placed around you because you aren't changing yourself, simply making a figment around something that already exists.

[K]

-make illusions of you on your enemies so that their allies attack them.

...

-stationary disguise. Sure, this is no Disguise Self, but if you don't need to exit the area you can wear an illusion like an oversized suit.

I'm not sure how these interact with what the SRD says on figments:

Figment

A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Does making something appear over something else count as making it look like something else?

You aren't making one thing look like another. You are simply inside the illusion.

So it couldn't make a human look like a halfling since a human can't fit inside the illusion, but a halfling could stand within a human-sized illusion (maybe stand on a rock so that he talks out of the face area of the illusion).

[K]

-Color things: got any coins from another country, world, or plane? Make them gold-colored and spend! Not like anyone knows what Krynn steel coins are in Greyhawk (weights will differ, which can be explained by differing qualities of gold).

Actually, the size will differ. Coins are always 50 to a pound, so based on density the coins will be larger or smaller.

Lol. I'm sure if you try to spend large or small gold coins people will not let you because everywhere in the multiverse coins are 50 to a pound. Everyone knows that.

[Psychic Robot]

This is all broken! You're doing things outside of the spells' intended effects! Economy of options! Caster and non-caster imbalance! Broken, I say, broken!

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

In many ways I think the game would be proved if spells and abilities were written more like Cantrip and Silent Image in that 1 spell has many broad applications. I'd like to see a generic fire spell that can heat or be thrown for damage or something.

[Orca]

One I used once - little puffs of dust, as of the footprints of someone invisible running away. 'Flaws' in your illusions can be useful ...

[Orca]

In many ways I think the game would be proved if spells and abilities were written more like Cantrip and Silent Image in that 1 spell has many broad applications. I'd like to see a generic fire spell that can heat or be thrown for damage or something.

Yeah, it's a shame that the games which have tried to do something like this (that I'm familiar with, anyway) are fairly broken - Mage, Ars Magica.

[virgil]

Fun idea. We all know that silent image can be used as a poor man's mirror image, and is particularly effective against spellcasters since their single target SoD now has a 50% miss chance compounded.

However, a good con doesn't give the player a chance to win. So when you make the duplicate of yourself, make it a smidgen larger and overlap it over yourself, similar to the suit idea mentioned earlier. While this won't help against melee/ranged attacks, it will still be of use against targeted spells, and the image will even give off sound and other senses just the like the original. It's unlikely even knowing you just cast silent image would reveal what just happened, as nobody will second-guess the wizard who didn't move from his spot.

[Meikle641]

Also worth mentioning, regarding Prestidigitation: distillation. You can say, make brandy by removing a quantity of water from the bottle. Makes all sorts of things possible.

[RandomCasualty2]

Yeah, as Robby said, you can't use a figment to disguise another creature, at most you can create something to block line of sight to it with something big, like a wall, but you can't interpose an illusion (at least not a figment) on top of it to make it look like something else.

I mean at that point you have no need of disguise self.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I mean at that point you have no need of disguise self.

Disguise self does not require concentration.

[shau]

I would generally use silent image to drop a fake stinking cloud or cloud kill on top of my own party. They would know it was fake a soon as they tired to breathe and get to see through it. Then everyone starts shooting outwards until someone figures it out. Combine with real cloud spells for best results.

[Crissa]

You can't make something invisible with silent image, but you can cover it up. So a round rock now looks like a round meatball; a guy looks like a girl or vice versa. It won't cover up the teifling's tail, but it can make them look like a dragonborn.

The image totally can cover something else up. It just can't not cover it up - a little more limited than a mundane disguise.

-Crissa

[Ice9]

It might be a bit tricky to cover a rapidly moving thing like a person in combat though. Probably doable when the illusion is significantly larger, like halfling -> rust monster, but covering an elf with a human disguise might show some "graphic artifacts" when the elf started dodging and weaving.

In many ways I think the game would be proved if spells and abilities were written more like Cantrip and Silent Image in that 1 spell has many broad applications. I'd like to see a generic fire spell that can heat or be thrown for damage or something.

Definitely agreed. Polymorph is broken as hell, but it's still a lot more interesting than the "single form" spells they came out with later. Earlier editions do have more of this versatility, although it's inconsistent - Fireball has always only done one thing, even when Phantasmal Force was around.

[RandomCasualty2]

It might be a bit tricky to cover a rapidly moving thing like a person in combat though. Probably doable when the illusion is significantly larger, like halfling -> rust monster, but covering an elf with a human disguise might show some "graphic artifacts" when the elf started dodging and weaving.

Yeah, I wouldn't ever allow a figment to get anchored to a creature and follow him perfectly. That's just begging for abuse and making it way more powerful than it should be.

[Crissa]

Well, the caster has to concentrate on moving any features other than location. It's not a big abuse.

...I might note that if figments can't be attached to a single object, then you can't have figments in railroad cars or whatnot. Normally it's attached to 'the earth' but I see no reason it can't be attached to 'a rock' or 'that being'.

But the caster still has to totally puppet it if they want it to be active and not repetitive.

-Crissa

[For Valor]

well, seeing as how the earth is spinning ridiculously quickly and hurtling around the sun and our solar system is spinning ridiculously quickly in part of the pattern that makes up the milky way...

figments need to be attached to objects. And attaching them to a person is totally cool, since the caster needs to concentrate on the figment at all times.

[RandomCasualty2]

Well, the caster has to concentrate on moving any features other than location. It's not a big abuse.

Actually yeah it is. It opens a totally big can of worms you dont' want to open.

It can basically become no save blindness. Imagine "I create a helmet over the guys head that constantly changes shape to prevent him from ever truly touching it, yet still warps around to block his sight completely."

You've just created an illusion that the guy can't interact with and disbelieve.

Or the illusory fighter that's completely unhittable.

Really, I'm not prepared to give illusions superhuman response times anymore than I'm willing to let contingency act as a universal detect anything spell doing crap like, "If I point towards the guy who murdered the king, cast light on my hand"

I mean, yeah there's nothing in the rules forbidding people from doing that shit, but come on. That's some really sleazy rules lawyering. The intent is for figments to not be able to disguise stuff. If your DM rules otherwise, then honestly he's letting them do more than they're supposed to.

Given that figments are already really powerful, I don't see any good reason to do that.

[Murtak]

I mean, yeah there's nothing in the rules forbidding people from doing that shit, but come on. That's some really sleazy rules lawyering. The intent is for figments to not be able to disguise stuff. If your DM rules otherwise, then honestly he's letting them do more than they're supposed to.

Given that figments are already really powerful, I don't see any good reason to do that.

Reaction time aside, figments need to be able to disguise stuff if they are to do anything at all. Otherwise you would not be able to make it seem like a door is on fire (disguising parts of the door), like a corridor is blocked (disguising the corridor) or like a pit trap exists in front of the door (disguising the floor).

You might make it work with a wording like "figments may partially obscure stuff, but never completely mask it" or "figments only ever add stuff to a scene, never remove it" I guess. But as written, figments either do nothing at all, or work like previously stated in this thread. I would actually prefer a better mechanic for interaction and disbelief myself. As is, those are more then a little clunky.

[RandomCasualty2]

Reaction time aside, figments need to be able to disguise stuff if they are to do anything at all. Otherwise you would not be able to make it seem like a door is on fire (disguising parts of the door), like a corridor is blocked (disguising the corridor) or like a pit trap exists in front of the door (disguising the floor).

Well no, I mean a figment shouldn't be able to create a pit. That's phantasmal terrain. It can however create what appears to be green slime on the floor, which is perhaps just as deadly.

It can create illusionary walls because those are putting objects in empty space. And it's possible to block someone's vision with a figment, but not actually alter an objects appearance. I could create an illusionary curtain to block something, but I couldn't use a figment to make my sword look like an axe.

Basically just go with the following guidelines and you'll be pretty much fine:
-figments can't be cast such that they contain an object or creature within them, though creatures can move inside them afterwards.
-figments can't be cast such that the effect follows a creature or object.

Even with that, there's still tons of awesome stuff you can do. You can totally create illusionary walls that your group can see and shoot through, or create shit like green slime or fire to scare your enemies.

[Murtak]

Well no, I mean a figment shouldn't be able to create a pit. That's phantasmal terrain. It can however create what appears to be green slime on the floor, which is perhaps just as deadly.

And now you can't see part of the floor. Either you can block the floor, or you can not. The pit as such does not exist, and the illusion does not extend into the ground.

It can create illusionary walls because those are putting objects in empty space. And it's possible to block someone's vision with a figment, but not actually alter an objects appearance. I could create an illusionary curtain to block something, but I couldn't use a figment to make my sword look like an axe.

Ok, so you can put a curtain in front of your sword. Can you put a curtain that looks exactly like an axe in front of it? Isn't this the exact line of reasoning that was already discussed?

Basically just go with the following guidelines and you'll be pretty much fine:
-figments can't be cast such that they contain an object or creature within them, though creatures can move inside them afterwards.
-figments can't be cast such that the effect follows a creature or object.

And strictly speaking that means you can not cast figments at all. Silent Image comes in 10ft cubes. Good look finding any such cube in a dungeon without an object in it. And of course your second guideline is utter bullshit. Presumably you can still modify the illusion. Allowing this, but not allowing it to follow anything simply does not work, if only because it is impossible to adjucate an argument. But even more so because allowing you to move your illusory blob to the left in an empty room, but not if someone else already moved to the left completely breaks immersion.

Even with that, there's still tons of awesome stuff you can do. You can totally create illusionary walls that your group can see and shoot through, or create shit like green slime or fire to scare your enemies.

Except of course if anything at all happens to exist where that wall is supposed to go. Tapestry? No can do. Chair? Nope. Kittens? Nope, no illusion for you. Fire? Sort of. Certainly no burning table. No modifying a corpse to look charred.



Seriously, your rules do not work the way you think they do. Let me give it a go, perhaps I can figure out a way to sort of make things work out the way you want them to. How about this:
Figments may be moved freely within the area of effect, but the caster makes all decisions during his action, he can not react to others' actions.
This still allows pit traps (although they will only look convincing from a specific angle), but the other things you do not like should be gone. You can not really keep someone from interaction with your illusion, except if you guess correctly during your turn what exactly they will do. You can not slip an image of an orc over an elf, or rather it will become obvious as soon as they move. You can still create walls, or pretty much anything that is independent from other creatures, but fucking with creatures is much harder (except for blocking line of sight). And you can totally set a room on illusory fire, complete with charred corpses.