3.0 -> 3.5 changes

[Sarandosil]

Yeah, I know, old stuff. Blast from the past. I stopped gaming shortly before 3.5 came out and picked it up again near a year ago, and I'm puzzled by some of the changes. Hopefully this doesn't dredge up old arguments.

Cover is weaker. I guess people will spend less time worrying about it now than they used it.

Auto success/fail on saving throws. Mostly inconsequential, but I don't like the auto fail bit. Stomping things that used to give you trouble once you've out leveled them is a nice way of letting players feel powerful, and letting the fighter be immune to basilisk's gaze or whatever after a certain point doesn't seem like such a big deal.

Skeletons and mindless undead are now evil rather than neutral. Some spells like Animate Dead got the evil descriptor, looks to me like they were trying to change the "undead/negative energy aren't inherently evil" bits of the game into the "negative energy is inherently evil" interpretation.

Alchemy requiring spellcaster levels. Wtf. Thankfully Pathfinder does away with this again (not like it's of any consequence though).

Keen/improved crit don't stack. I'm guessing this was because supplements let you increase your threat range further and critting on every attack was deemed too awesome.

Probably a lot of spell changes, but one I noticed was horrid wilting getting nerfed. Was that it that awesome at d8s instead of d6s or something? Buff spells got changed to minutes duration rather than hours. I'm guessing this was because high level characters could cast it and have it last into the next "day" worth of spells, but at minutes per level it seems too short to worthwhile in the games I run, where combat is both infrequent and unpredictable. I don't see any of my players memorizing these anymore.

[Username17]

Cover is weaker. I guess people will spend less time worrying about it now than they used it.

The cover change was made to facilitate the board game aspect. While they mysteriously kept the role playing based diagram in the book, the actual rule is now that if there's an intervening object of any kind you get 50% cover and nothing else has any rules. Would be faster, but it doesn't give a good explanation, so it's actually slower. Plus, stuff like arrow slits still exist and no longer have coherent rules. It was ultimately a bad change.

They did the same thing to Concealment, where there is just Concealment and Full Concealment. But there it works, because no one knew how to adjudicate "mostly concealed" anyway. So Concealment got faster and better even as Cover got clumsier.

Auto success/fail on saving throws.

Yes. That was a minor negative change. Created a few problems like the poison spray and solved nothing at all. But Andy Collins has been lobbying for that shit for years. I suspect he didn't even realize it was one of his shitty house rules when he wrote it into the new book.

Skeletons and mindless undead are now evil rather than neutral. Some spells like Animate Dead got the evil descriptor, looks to me like they were trying to change the "undead/negative energy aren't inherently evil" bits of the game into the "negative energy is inherently evil" interpretation.

Yeah, every time anyone writes anything on Necromancy, they try to write in their favorite of the Playing With Fire/ Crawling Darkness interpretation of Negative Energy. Andy Collins clearly prefers the EVIL interpretation, but he was too lazy to actually write it into the whole game. Inflict Light Wounds is still neutral.

Alchemy requiring spellcaster levels. Wtf.

That was just Andy Collins pissing on you.

Keen/improved crit don't stack. I'm guessing this was because supplements let you increase your threat range further and critting on every attack was deemed too awesome.

This was simply because Andy Collins hated people who didn't fight with Greatswords. He straight up said so. He said that it was "wrong" for people to do more damage with two short swords (hence the Power Attack change) or a falchion (hence the crit change).

Probably a lot of spell changes, but one I noticed was horrid wilting getting nerfed. Was that it that awesome at d8s instead of d6s or something? Buff spells got changed to minutes duration rather than hours. I'm guessing this was because high level characters could cast it and have it last into the next "day" worth of spells, but at minutes per level it seems too short to worthwhile in the games I run, where combat is both infrequent and unpredictable. I don't see any of my players memorizing these anymore.

Lots of spells got changed. As I recall, Command Plants and Control Plants were switched. The big one is that buffs were shortened in an attempt to reduce the effectiveness of buffs. But this actually makes buffs exactly as strong, but makes the adventuring day shorter. So that change was a big failure.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

i don't know if anyone else mentioned this, but enlarge became enlarge person. The first worked on just about anything, so it suffered from the 'what is an object' issue. However, it was also much more versatile and interesting. Seems like a precursor to the 4e transition.

[K]

Haste, Harm, Holds of various kinds, and Disintegrate were made stupid, and Wish was made abusable.

Weapon sizing was made dumb.

[Kaelik]

Haste, Harm, Holds of various kinds, and Disintegrate were made stupid, and Wish was made abusable.

Weapon sizing was made dumb.

I don't really have anything against 3.5 Harm, and 3.0 harm was fucked up, but what was 3.0 disintegrate that was less retarded?

[K]

Haste, Harm, Holds of various kinds, and Disintegrate were made stupid, and Wish was made abusable.

Weapon sizing was made dumb.

I don't really have anything against 3.5 Harm, and 3.0 harm was fucked up, but what was 3.0 disintegrate that was less retarded?

3.0 was a save or die. Then they made it into "that damaging ray spell you don't use" that does 2d6 per level ranged touch attack.

[Kaelik]

Haste, Harm, Holds of various kinds, and Disintegrate were made stupid, and Wish was made abusable.

Weapon sizing was made dumb.

I don't really have anything against 3.5 Harm, and 3.0 harm was fucked up, but what was 3.0 disintegrate that was less retarded?

3.0 was a save or die. Then they made it into "that damaging ray spell you don't use" that does 2d6 per level ranged touch attack.

Okay, so basically 2e, but with the 3e save system, so actually useful. What did it do to equipment?

[Username17]

Chapter by Chapter:

Races:
Dwarves were made more effective. They got free weapon proficiencies, trip resistance, and the ability to tumble in armor.

Classes:

Barbarian: Slight change in Uncanny Dodge progression and shit. The class is still two levels long, so no one cares.

Bard: Got 6 Skill points a level (yay!), but their Performances got nerfed (boo!). Net penalty for Bards, although they subsequently printed some bard feats and PrCs that make them net stronger than they were in 3e.

Clerics: Essentially no change.

Druids: More favorable weapon/armor restrictions. Gained ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally, more favorable Wildshape progression, Animal Companions replaced with one super Animal Companion, Dinosaurs and other "beasts" reclassified as Animals. Significant improvement across the board.

Fighter: No change. Still sucks.

Monk: Removed the "UBAB" nonsense. Gave out some options on bonus feats. Changed Ki Strike to fail to keep up with the 3.5 DR as opposed to failing to keep up with 3.0 DR. Still sucks.

Paladin: Major abilities delayed slightly to make the class less good as a dip class. Class is now less good.

Ranger: Hit die decreased to d8, skill points increased to 6/level, Good Reflex Save added. Favored Enemy bonuses increased, bonus feats delayed but more of them added. The Animal Companion was updated to be a worthless version of the 3.5 Druid's rather than a worthless version of the 3e Druid's. TWF now worthless, but gives you the option of Rapid Shot instead. Slightly worse as a Rogue Dip, better for other people.

Rogue: Slight increase in Uncanny Dodge progression. Got Saps removed from their weapon proficiencies. A couple of years later they realized that was a mistake and errataed it back.

Sorcerer: No Change

Wizard: No Change

Feats:

Endurance lets you sleep in armor and is much improved.
Improved Critical nerfed to uselessness.
Natural Spell added. Druids can cast in wildshape.
Power Attack: does significant extra damage for characters using two handed weapons. Does not provide damage bonuses for light weapon users.
Quicken Spell barred to Sorcerers for no reason.
Skill Focus improved. No one cares
Numerous +2/+2 Skill feats added. No one cares.
All "Combat Maneuver" feats give a substantial bonus to their maneuver.

Skills:

Alchemy now a "Casters Only" Craft specialization. Merged into Craft, but still plays by its own rules for no reason.
Innuendo removed. Merged into Sense Motive.
Intuit Direction removed.
Wilderness Lore renamed Survival.

Equipment:

Weapon Sizes became very dumb.

Combat:

Overrun effectively removed.
Characters disallowed from charging through ally occupied squares.
Charge given numerous other restrictions, ending up eliminating ride by attack on accident.
Characters provoke an AoO by standing up from prone, making Trip a lot more powerful.
Minor alterations to the way Sunder works.
Cover and Concealment turned binary. This was good for concealment, bad for cover.
Areas are defined in terms of squares and corner to corner lines. This is supposed to make things more grid friendly, but in reality it just makes things more confusing for lines and cones.

Spells:

Too many to list.

-Username17

[Wyzzard]

Okay, so basically 2e, but with the 3e save system, so actually useful. What did it do to equipment?

Nothing.

3.0 Disintegrate
Transmutation
Level: Destruction 7, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
A thin, green ray springs from the character's pointing finger, causing the creature or object it strikes to glow and vanish, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. The character must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter is affected, so the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even magical matter or energy of a magical nature but not a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field. A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is only partially affected. It takes 5d6 points of damage instead of disintegrating. Only the first creature or object struck can be affected (that is, the ray affects only one target per casting).

Oh, I think they changed the Words too, BTW..

[Ice9]

They made a lot of spells less versatile. For instance, the Emotion spell was broken into separate spells for each emotion, and as mentioned, Enlarge became Enlarge Person. Freezing Sphere and Polar Ray used to be one spell I think, as did Flame Arrow and Scorching Ray.

[A Man In Black]

Fighter: No change. Still sucks.

Wasn't GWF and GWS made core?

Also, IIRC, Animal Empathy was removed as a skill and added to the relevant classes.

[NineInchNall]

Sorcerer: No Change

Wizard: No Change

Sorcerer: Allowed to change out one known spell for another every two levels, but the spell has to be two levels lower than your max, so you don't care. It's an improvement, but a generally irrelevant one.

Wizard: School specialization changed slightly. Can no longer take Divination as a prohibited school.

[Sarandosil]

The cover change was made to facilitate the board game aspect...

I'm not seeing how, it's still up to the GM to decide whether or not something gives cover. Unless the only cover we care about is corners, I guess.

Chapter by Chapter...

This list makes the 3.5 update look less like god's sweet boon to humanity than everyone I know keeps telling me.

They made a lot of spells less versatile. For instance, the Emotion spell was broken into separate spells for each emotion, and as mentioned, Enlarge became Enlarge Person. Freezing Sphere and Polar Ray used to be one spell I think....

Yeah, looks like someone didn't like multipurpose spells when they were doing the revision, though why they made Polar Ray (formerly cold ray) two levels higher than it used to be is beyond me.

Weapon sizing was made dumb.

Explain this please, the new rules look more complicated to me but I'm not seeing what this changes, other than letting small characters use a d10 weapon.

[hogarth]

Weapon sizing was made dumb.

Explain this please, the new rules look more complicated to me but I'm not seeing what this changes, other than letting small characters use a d10 weapon.

It's arguably dumb to penalize a Small character for using a Medium shortsword.

It's also arguably dumb that a Small whip and a Medium whip have the same 15' reach.

YMMV.

[Crissa]

The strange thing was that I found the biggest changes were the writing, which I didn't care for. Things were written in very unclear terms, so I never bought 3.5 and just stuck to using SRD for changes.

-Crissa

[A Man In Black]

It's arguably dumb to penalize a Small character for using a Medium shortsword.

It's also arguably dumb that a Small whip and a Medium whip have the same 15' reach.

YMMV.

It's also arguably dumb that gnomes are incapable of inventing gnome-sized halberds, or that halflings need both hands to use a whip. 3.5's weapon sizing rules are dumb, but they're merely dumb in different ways from 3e's equally-dumb weapons-sizing rules.

Frank's list also missed the removal of the class-specific restriction on skills. Most notably, this gives UMD to sorcerers and some clerics and paladins.

[Username17]

The 3.5 overhaul to weapon sizes is rather complex, and pretty damn stupid. Here's how it works:

Instead of having a size for the weapon, the weapon has a usage category: Light, One Handed, Two Handed, or Ranged. And it has a character size category, which is the size of character it was "made for." If you use a weapon that was "made for" a character that is bigger or smaller than you are, you suffer to-hit penalties, and then if it's a melee weapon you also shift it up or down the list of weapon size categories:
Light <-> One Handed <-> Two Handed.
And if it would get pushed off that list in either direction, you can't use it at all.

So other than being more complicated than the 3e weapon size categories and providing less information (since object size cannot be gleaned from that), what is actually wrong with it? Well, several things:

• Some weapons are classified not because of their size, but by how they are used. A Pincer Staff is two handed because it has two fucking handles. And yet, in the hands of an Ogre it becomes a one handed weapon. Somehow.
• Everything smaller than a longsword is a light weapon. So there's no longer a distinction made between tiny and small weaponry. The game is now telling you that daggers and short swords are the same size - which is clearly false.
• Taking penalties because pommels are the wrong size is pretty weird in a game that lacks the granularity to track pommels at all, but the entire idea of weapons being "made for" one size character or another seriously falls apart when we're talking about weapons that aren't essentially sword shaped. At the extreme end, the Orcish Shotput is literally a featureless sphere. No matter who it was nominally "made for" it is exactly the same in every physically measurable fashion. And yet, different identical iron spheres will give penalties to hit to different characters for having the wrong "handle."
• Remember how the automatic cutoffs for weapon size and possible use only kick in for melee weapons because those are the only ones that shift categories when they are used by characters of different sizes? Yeah, under 3. weapon size rules, a halfling can use a Storm Giant's Great Bow. The to-hit penalty is very large, but he can seriously just fire that thing with a normal attack action. The bow is larger than his extended family, and he can use Rapid Shot to fire it twice in six seconds.
• Small versions of reach weapons have the same reach. So when we talk about spears, we have two pointy sticks that are the same length. But one of them does less damage and causes a to-hit penalty to humans who use it, but it is a one-handed weapon instead of a two-handed weapon. It's just a pointy stick! It has identical dimensions! Aaargh!

Yes. All of those problems were added to the weapon size rules. No problems were fixed. No loopholes were addressed. Nothing improved. It's even more text to write up the same weapons and conveys less information.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

[*] Small versions of reach weapons have the same reach. So when we talk about spears, we have two pointy sticks that are the same length. But one of them does less damage and causes a to-hit penalty to humans who use it, but it is a one-handed weapon instead of a two-handed weapon. It's just a pointy stick! It has identical dimensions! Aaargh!

It's a pointy stick that is light enough that a human can use it with reach in one hand (at a penalty). Because it's smaller and lighter, it's also usable as a pike by someone half your size. Unlike, say, a longspear.

[souran]

There are two views on weapon sizes that people think are reasonable.

Basically there is the "small people use daggers instead of shortswords" model. You might also call it LOTR model because thats part of where it originates.

Halflings use elven daggers because an elf's dagger is proprotionally a shortsword.

This is 3.0. All weapons are absolute. This would also imply that giants and titans who want a two handed sword would need great-great swords and great-great-great-swords respectively.

The problem with this is that it has an element that doesn't make any sense. A halfling uses a rapier in two hands. Thats just won't work, a rapier would lose the agility that makes it powerful used two handed.

The other method is the "small creatures make small versions of every weapon." This is the 3.5 method. Basically it solves the "what weapons do pixies and titans fight with" by letting them make Titan Longswords.

The problem is that eventually you will have a player that wants to use that titan's longsword. Then you have a problem because to date there are no titan sized pc races.

So there are rules for using weapons not made for your size and basically you get screwed for not using weapons your own size. Except with enough +to hit bonus the penalty stops mattering.

So it ALSO creates situations that make no sense (the halfling firing the titans longbow).

Now the thing is, BOTH rulesets are actually really reasonable, but lots of people like either one ruleset or the other. Also many people CAN NOT STAND the ruleset they don't like.

Take Frank:

Small versions of reach weapons have the same reach. So when we talk about spears, we have two pointy sticks that are the same length. But one of them does less damage and causes a to-hit penalty to humans who use it, but it is a one-handed weapon instead of a two-handed weapon. It's just a pointy stick! It has identical dimensions! Aaargh!

A "small" longspear in 3.5 by defintion is not this similar. A small persons spear would have a smaller diameter halft so that it was easy for a small hand to grip, it is balanced for use in two hands, not one hand. And there is nothing at all that says they are about the same length. Infact the small persons spear is probably longer as they would need a greater length to qualify for the reach property. But I will admit that the reach property creates problems in this system.

Again the essesence of the 3.5 system is that weapons are defined by there function and so every race/size would build versions of every weapon.

Both systems are viable and both have their flaws. I actually don't have a preference as long as the rule doesn't float and change while playing.
I would say whichever system seems more logical to you is the one you should use because otherwise the system will grate on you.

[K]

I don't really have anything against 3.5 Harm, and 3.0 harm was fucked up, but what was 3.0 disintegrate that was less retarded?

3.0 was a save or die. Then they made it into "that damaging ray spell you don't use" that does 2d6 per level ranged touch attack.

Okay, so basically 2e, but with the 3e save system, so actually useful. What did it do to equipment?

3.0 had equipment being destroyed, and 3.5 had the loot-riffic version where loots didn't get destroyed. My Greyhawking instincts like this, despite my design instincts thinking it's kinda lame.

Also, the spell Scorching Ray was added to Core in 3.5, one of the few actual improvements in my mind.

[Crissa]

Didn't magical weapons/armor 'just fit' in 3.0?

-Crissa

PS, there weren't small versions of every weapon. The rapier, for instance, just vanished as a small weapon.

[Blicero]

PS, there weren't small versions of every weapon. The rapier, for instance, just vanished as a small weapon.

There was the kukri, though, which served the same basic 18-20/x2 critical function. (Although I seem to remember the kukri being an Exotic weapon in 3.0 for some reason, maybe...?)

[Sarandosil]

Didn't magical weapons/armor 'just fit' in 3.0?

-Crissa

PS, there weren't small versions of every weapon. The rapier, for instance, just vanished as a small weapon.

They don't in 3.5? 3.0 armor does resize, don't remember any mention for weapons.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Didn't magical weapons/armor 'just fit' in 3.0?

-Crissa

PS, there weren't small versions of every weapon. The rapier, for instance, just vanished as a small weapon.

They don't in 3.5? 3.0 armor does resize, don't remember any mention for weapons.

Yeah, that's basically it. Weapons don't resize and armor does. That's why when I go to make magical adamantine full plate, I always make it for a pixie. Saves big on material costs, and once it's enchanted it'll expand like magic animal capsules.

[Judging__Eagle]

I've always maintained that equipment reforms to fit creatures of the size and shape it was made for.

Stealing a Beholder's Adamantine carapace is cool, but it's not going to suddenly shrink, and fit around you. Unless you are also a Beholder (or Beholder Kin of a similar shape), and about the same size category.

A Dwarf stealing an Elf's mithral shirt, and having that resize is fine. they're both medium sized humanoids, and a PHB PC race character could conceivably wear a Minotaur's Armour (given liberal uses of Enlarge Person). So long as they're not a Halfling or Gnome.

Of course, having a ball of armour suddenly transmogriphy to fit a human is awesome.

Using a "stock" cost for special material armours is probably the best bet. Adamantine armour just costs the same, for everyone. Cloud Giant, or Pixie. When not worn, it will eventually revert to a size and shape of the items creator.



Also Souran.... on 2-handed Rapiers. You're an idiot, not because of what you said, but because you're parroting one of the WoTC designers when you say that nonsense; and repeating a wrong won't ever make it right.

Humans have 2 handed Rapiers. You might know them as Katanas. Two hands gives better leverage, strength and speed than one hand does.