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Post by Username17 »

OK, as promised, first impressions of the Bestiař, with pictures. So here it is:
Image
Image
As you can see, it's a three ring binder with pages stuck into it. I guess you could add more monsters to it, or take monsters out while you were using them and then lose them or get them out of order or something. I'm not sure that would make much difference, because the monsters are only in loose alphabetical order and even that only within categories, and the categories don't make any sense. Anděl (Angel) is listed under Nemrtvými (Undead), but Dabel (Devil) is not (it is a Magické bynosti).

The basic monster entries look pretty familiar. You have a stat block next to a picture and below that is a text block that tells you what they look like, what they do, and how they fight. If you quint and don't try to read the actual words, it looks exactly like any RPG Monster Book published since 1977:
Image
But we should probably take a look in at the stat line itself, and for reasons of tradition, I will use the Giant Fucking Crab:
Image
So monsters have pretty much the same stats that player characters do, which is almost disappointing in its lack of insanity. Some of the numbers seem a bit... off, but that is only to be expected. Truly surprising is that in general the game is pretty reasonable about keeping Agility and Dexteriy inflation down. Indeed, if you walk in with a Bojovnik of really any level you are probably much much more coordinated than pretty much anything you are expected to fight. Strength scores get pretty damn large, as you might expect, and oddly Charisma values are fucking through the roof for just about everything. It's not just that your beautiful lady Hobbit Cleric has met her match in like the Common Ghoul (Charisma +8), or that Drago-Wank is in full swing and that the eight different types of Dragons in the book have Charismas that range from +13 to +20 (on, recall, a 2d6 scale); I mean seriously Charisma inflation is off the charts all over the place. The Giant Fucking Crab has a Charisma of five. The lowest I've seen in this whole book is the deer, whose Charisma is 2. Player Character charisma values start at zero and some people get race or sex penalties.

But the rest of the stats are much less inflated. Possibly too much so. Our Giant Crab comes in with a Willpower and Intelligence of negative ten. As in, it seriously pushes itself off the RNG the other way against starting commoners with no points spent at all. A Dexterity of negative 10 as well, which seems to mean that it can't use bows. But as far as I can tell, that also means it can't throw things or climb, which is pretty damn weird.

The next thing we see is some of DrD+'s arcane combat figured characteristics. Recall that for PCs, your combat value is figured from your Agility and some relevant stat to your class. For every monster and animal, there is a completely arbitrary set of stats that determine their combat values. For the Crow, it's their Intelligence and Willpower. Seriously, there is no rhyme or reason to any of this. The numbers might as well be totally arbitrary, since the formula already is for each entry. But below that is a list of the monster's five senses. Yes, all five. Giant Crabs have a -5 penalty to detect things by taste. Hejkals (some sort of Jackal man thingy) have a +7 to taste tests. I'm not even sure what all the other numbers mean yet, more on that later.

Now, there was some question as to whether the list f monsters would have crazy Czech stuff or if it would all just be D&D rip monsters. The monster list, I can safely say, has some weird shit in it:
Image

They get points for having seven flavors of Lýkantropů without bothering to cover Werewolves. But you can turn into a Crow, a Boar, a Rat, a Swan, a Tiger, a Snake, or a Bear. Changing form because of a near fatal swan bite is pretty epic. That picture of the vole with the glowing tentacles sticking out of its back while it flies around is apparently a Scintila, and it is a half meter long magical beast whose main power is an aura and uses magic somehow (I sill don't know how magic actually works, so it's hard for me to evaluate). There is also a giant frog made of stone whose main power seems to be that it can explode. It is called a Detonátor.

Other people speculated that there would be weird RNG breaking and DNS effects here and there. Oh, hell yes. I haven't read it all or anything, but in addition to the fact that monsters who have Charismas that are more than yours by the entire die is extremely common, there is a general lack of concern for the fact that the RNG is 2d6. The DC to notice giant mosquitoes draining your spinal fluid is 13. As in, if you don't have a relevant bonus you are seriously down for rolling a 12 and then trying to get a positive result on the unlocked open ended coin flip.

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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Very interesting Frank, why do you think that seven types of Lýkantropů are described, while werewolves are not?

Also, the cover art of the book reminds me of my first Tome character, a barbarian. His injury level every fight was about that high, and dropping near (and rarely below) 1 HP happened somewhat often.
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Post by Koumei »

FrankTrollman wrote: They get points for having seven flavors of Lýkantropů without bothering to cover Werewolves. But you can turn into a Crow, a Boar, a Rat, a Swan, a Tiger, a Snake, or a Bear. Changing form because of a near fatal swan bite is pretty epic.
Okay, it has Mister Cavern, it has llama mounts, it has WERESWANS, how is this not the official Gaming Den game of choice?

D&D sorely lacks wereswans.
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Post by Sashi »

It still gets props for the cover obviously being a wrestling match between Cleavenstein and Ursa Murder (who is wearing his championship belt)
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Post by Koumei »

Holy shit, I did not notice the Hardcore Championship belt. AWESOME

Also, someone really needs to make the wereswan template for 3E.
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Post by A Man In Black »

Koumei wrote:Also, someone really needs to make the wereswan template for 3E.
All you need are stats for a small- or medium-sized swan, and you can do it the hard way.

Also? That is a pretty rad cover.
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Post by Username17 »

So I think it is time to talk about damage resistance, because I am only now getting my head around it. Fortunately, most monsters do not have any. Some of the nastiest monsters have a damage resistance line that reads - in its entirety:
ψ
I... have no idea what that means. The description of damage resistance at the beginning of the book did not mention this as a possibility. It shows up on a lot of supernatural badass monsters like devils and cerberuses. So, maybe it's that you need a magic weapon to hurt them? I seriously have no clue. It's a fucking letter psi, it's not actually on the list of things that can happen. Or in the already expanded Czech alphabet for that matter.

But for a more "normal" damage resistance line, let's look at a few:
Drak mokřadní - Hydra wrote:½+Vo, ½+Z (–Vo 2, –Z 2)
Můra noční wrote:B, S, D, ±O, ±Vo, ±Vz, ±Z
OK, now that that's settled, let's go over what the book tells us is going on. Because the Hydra fits that description (stupid though it is), and the Evil Dream does not. The idea is that there are damage types that are abbreviated with one or two letter codes. Things have vulnerabilities and resistances on the same line, and it tells you what is a vulnerability or resistance and then tells you what the damage multiplier actually is. Thereby putting two instances of the same letters with multipliers of opposite signs for clarity.

Meanwhile this Evil Dream guy doesn't actually have those things, because he only has one copy of all the damage types. And even then half of them are led to by "±" which is again not on the damn list of things that can happen. And I have no idea what it is supposed to mean.

And no, I haven't found a comprehensive list of all the damage types, though I am willing to allow as how this might just be me being retarded (or it could be that the comprehensive list is in the Mr. Cavern Book). But they also aren't all at the same level of concept. "O" is fire, and "Vz" is breath weapons, and "B" is piercing. So I don't really know what happens when a sword or breath weapon is on fire. Which being a fantasy RPG, I would expect to happen with some regularity.

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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Koumei wrote:Also, someone really needs to make the wereswan template for 3E.
Wereswan
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Elves and humans are most commonly infected with swan lycanthropy. They tend to become hopeless romantics consumed by conflicting desires of violence and love.
[*]Lycanthropy: A wereswan's bite carries lycanthropy.
Lycanthropy
Infection: injury. DC: 10 + 1/2 level + Con. Incubation: 1 day. Damage: 1d8 wisdom. Special: this is a supernatural disease; a creature reduced to 0 wisdom becomes a lycanthrope and is cured of the disease.
Only small and medium humanoids can be afflicted with wereswan lycanthropy, which turns afflicted creatures into wereswans.
[*]DR 4 + 1/3 level / Silver
[*]Scent
[*]Low-light vision
[*]Swan song: Wereswans can communicate with avians as though they share a language.
[*]Attribute bonuses: +2 to dexterity and constitution while in animal or hybrid form.
[*]Skill bonuses: A wererat gains a competence bonus to Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Perform (dance) when in animal or hybrid form.
[*]Alternate Forms: In both animal and hybrid form, wereswans can fly (60', average) and swim (20'). In animal form, a wereswans's size becomes small and he gains speed 20' and a bite attack. His animal form is that of a swan, which may limit his ability to use equipment. Unlike other lycanthropes, the wereswan's hybrid form does not grant bite or claw attacks, although a strong bite will still transmit lycanthropy.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

D&D sorely lacks wereswans.
That's flat out not true.

Swanmays have been around since at least early 2e (1993 per wikipedia) although given that there was an important one in Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions I have a strong hunch that there AD&D or early stats for them tucked in some module.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Swanmays were in the 1990's 2E AD&D Monster Compendium as well. I forgot about that until now.
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Post by Koumei »

Oh come on, I just mean the important edition of D&D. I don't really care what 2E had.
FrankTrollman wrote:And even then half of them are led to by "±" which is again not on the damn list of things that can happen. And I have no idea what it is supposed to mean.
That's the symbol for "plus or minus", which I'm sure you know, so... could it make any sense at all if it seriously means "Add or subtract ___, based on the situation and how much you've been drinking"?
So I don't really know what happens when a sword or breath weapon is on fire. Which being a fantasy RPG, I would expect to happen with some regularity.
I'm expecting there to be something that breathes fiery swords. Then again, I don't know what to do in 2E if you use a wand to cast a spell that creates a poisonous breath weapon.
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Post by Agent_0042 »

Josh_Kablack wrote:
D&D sorely lacks wereswans.
That's flat out not true.

Swanmays have been around since at least early 2e (1993 per wikipedia) although given that there was an important one in Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions I have a strong hunch that there AD&D or early stats for them tucked in some module.
There was a writeup for them in First Edition's MM2, I believe. '83 or '84.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

I know for sure that they were in the book of humanoids.
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Post by Draco_Argentum »

That cover art is pretty sweet. Better than MM4.
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Post by Sashi »

This is something that Wizards designers seem to not understand: a dynamic scene is worth way more than even the best rendered "Oh Hai, I can Demogorgon?"

Then again, seriously, championship belt. That is clearly a wrasslin match. We're just five minutes late for Ursa Murder's manager talking smack.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Sashi wrote: This is something that Wizards designers seem to not understand: a dynamic scene is worth way more than even the best rendered "Oh Hai, I can Demogorgon?"
IAW my design for a new monster manual, I also propose that the art director insists on making pictures of monsters as dynamic as possible.


That's a bit too much of a glittering generality I realize, so let me make it more concrete.

For example, in the bad old days we generally do monster manual pictures like this: Monsters are arranged in alphabetical order. You get a shot of one monster, maybe doing something vaguely action-y like waving their club menacingly.

Nuh uh. Fuck that. Here's how this should go:

First of all, I agree with pixels in that Monster Manuals should be arranged by CR, not alphabetically. However, I also agree that that Monster Manuals should be arranged by THEME as well. What do I mean? Okay, you got a team of level 5 PCs and you're coming up with a good encounter for them. You flip to the CR 6 chapter. Here's what you see:
  • The 'Upper Tier' of Young Adult Chromatic Dragons. Red Dragons, Black Dragons, and Brown Dragons. Their dynamic shot would be a group of six of them, two of each type, carrying wagon/carriageloads of gold out of the rich sector of the city and burninating the terrified guards who are trying to flee.
  • Hill Giants. The picture of the Hill Giant, one of each sex, should be of a couple of them of them ripping open a guard shack to get at some terrified elves. One of their pets, a ginormous slavering dire wolf, tears its head through a door. A piece of an elf corpse is in the mouths of one of the Giants as they raise his or her club. There will be stats for a Hill Giant, a Hill Giant Shaman, and a Hill Giant Tribal chief. There are also stats for Dire Wolves and Dire Jaguars.
  • Ogre Mage, Ogre Berserker, and Ogre Sentinel versus two Stone Golems. For some ungodly reason they're grappling in deadly combat on a stone bridge overlooking the valley. The Ogre Mage is hanging on for dear life while he charges a spell in his free hand. The Stone Golem are carved to look like ginormous Venus de Milo statues, back when the statue still had its arms.
  • Vampires. You have stats for a Vargouile (sp?), some freshly created Vampire Spawn, some revenants, a Vampire Wizard, and a Vampire Warlord.
    The group shot is of them enjoying a meal atop of a pile of corpses while a hamlet burns in the background. The Vampire Wizard calmly sucks on the neck of a beautiful maiden while he gazes upon his less refined followers taking down some horses and oxen.
  • Throwdown of a group of Werebears versus Werewolves in some swamp. Even though the werewolves outnumber the werebears, the match looks relatively even. There are plenty of stakes with werebear heads mounted on them. Moonlight shines through the canopy of the forest.
Something like that. I dunno. I'm not a good imagination guy, but I hope that you get the idea.
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Post by CCarter »

Some of the nastiest monsters have a damage resistance line that reads - in its entirety:ψ
Apparently (just according to wikipedia) ψ is the symbol for the polygamma function?...maybe just using gamma and beta functions wasn't confusing enough? (Or alternatively it may be considered in Greek to be a value of 700).
Or if these monsters are badass I wonder if its "your weapons do nothing"???


Unrelatedly, I have an old version of Runequest that had some awesomely WTF? monster scenes. It arranged monsters in alphabetically order then had scene diagrams that had 3 or so nearby monsters on it and then a caption trying to explain what they were doing near each other, fairly unsuccessfully. Unfortunately packed away.
EDIT: not saying something like that can't work, though. It mostly didn't work because of the alphabetical order.
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Post by Starmaker »

psi = wave function

Lolrandum guess about monster stats in DrD+:
(note: the purpose of a lolrandum guess is not to defend giant frog design decisions but to speculate about the probable source of the crazy).

cha v1: Perhaps there are some bullshit diplomancy rules tucked into a rulebook somewhere and high monster charisma is meant to prevent diplomancing through everything.
cha v2: Maybe monster stats work differently and it's not charisma per se but the DC of a charisma/diplomancy check.

dex: The giant crab's negative dex is meant to prevent it from taking up lockpicking, knitting and basketweaving.
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Post by Username17 »

Speaking of Giant Frogs who explode for no reason...

I was translating the Detanátor, and it turns out that they seriously explode for no reason. The actual sentences in question translates to:
DrD+ wrote:You might think this is some sort of defense mechanism, but you would be wrong. The truth is that the Detanátor does not care if it lives or dies, and explodes for no reason.
Emphasis mine.

It lives in the Astral Plane, and it is full of explosive fluid that sometimes just goes off for no reason. I don't even know what to say.

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Post by TheWorid »

FrankTrollman wrote:Speaking of Giant Frogs who explode for no reason...

I was translating the Detanátor, and it turns out that they seriously explode for no reason. The actual sentences in question translates to:
DrD+ wrote:You might think this is some sort of defense mechanism, but you would be wrong. The truth is that the Detanátor does not care if it lives or dies, and explodes for no reason.
Emphasis mine.

It lives in the Astral Plane, and it is full of explosive fluid that sometimes just goes off for no reason. I don't even know what to say.

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I don't know if that is incredibly stupid or incredibly awesome.
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Post by norms29 »

Koumei wrote:
I'm expecting there to be something that breathes fiery swords. Then again, I don't know what to do in 2E if you use a wand to cast a spell that creates a poisonous breath weapon.
you'd roll your save on the poison column.
actually 2nd edition had a simpe linear hierarchy of priority for that. there were only 5 save types and they were listed in order in the book and on the official character sheets.
After all, when you climb Mt. Kon Foo Sing to fight Grand Master Hung Lo and prove that your "Squirrel Chases the Jam-Coated Tiger" style is better than his "Dead Cockroach Flails Legs" style, you unleash a bunch of your SCtJCT moves, not wait for him to launch DCFL attacks and then just sit there and parry all day. And you certainly don't, having been kicked about, then say "Well you served me shitty tea before our battle" and go home.
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Post by Prak »

FrankTrollman wrote:Speaking of Giant Frogs who explode for no reason...

I was translating the Detanátor, and it turns out that they seriously explode for no reason. The actual sentences in question translates to:
DrD+ wrote:You might think this is some sort of defense mechanism, but you would be wrong. The truth is that the Detanátor does not care if it lives or dies, and explodes for no reason.
Emphasis mine.

It lives in the Astral Plane, and it is full of explosive fluid that sometimes just goes off for no reason. I don't even know what to say.

-Username17
Reminds me of discworld swamp dragons, whose "flame" is actually fueled by their highly unstable alchemical stills of a digestive tract. This is why they eat random crap (it just needed a bit of lamp oil in it's diet, seriously.) and why swamp dragons just kind of... explode at times, mostly in the wild, but sometimes in captivity too

...of course sometimes swamp dragons in captivity reverse their flame generating organs on the fly and wind up with jet propulsion...
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Post by Orca »

Agent_0042 wrote:
Josh_Kablack wrote:
D&D sorely lacks wereswans.
That's flat out not true.

Swanmays have been around since at least early 2e (1993 per wikipedia) although given that there was an important one in Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions I have a strong hunch that there AD&D or early stats for them tucked in some module.
There was a writeup for them in First Edition's MM2, I believe. '83 or '84.
'83. One of the dorkiest pictures of a monster I've ever seen.
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Post by Darth Rabbitt »

IIRC there was a Swanmay prestige class in BoEF.

Don't remember if it was any good though; but judging the book it came from I'd guess not.
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Post by Koumei »

TheWorid wrote: I don't know if that is incredibly stupid or incredibly awesome.
Definitely both.
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