Core Principle: Your Fantasy Economy is Bullshit

[virgil]

Why is this wizard spending 34 days to make a staff for a specific construction project when he can just spend 6 days on location to cast the spell personally for overwhelmingly less gold?

ADDENDUM: How much stone does a medieval quarry produce, and how many people usually work in it?

[Username17]

You're not even meeting me at the points I clearly set down. We were talking about MINING and now you're talking about BUILDING. And even with the subject switch the wizard STILLLLLLLLL trumps 500 hundred skill craftsman over a month in BUILDING SHIT!

No. He didn't. In 34 days with 17 grand, he was able to build a stick that created 50 walls. A craftsman can lay about 1200 bricks in a day. That's 50 cubic feet of wall per day. One third more than casting a wall of stone. Those 50 walls in 34 days were 38 craftsmen working for 1 day. Or more likely 2 craftsmen working for 19 days.

So yes, the Wizard can make walls appear, and it's all awesome and shit. But there is no economic importance for this, because he's still better off hiring schlubs to do it for him.

If Michael Jordan could magically create Nikes a dozen times faster - or even a hundred times faster - than some random Vietnamese kid... it would have no impact at all on how shoes were made. Because Michael Jordan has shit to do. And even if he is super good at making shoes, it doesn't matter because it's still not economical to hire him to do that.

All you've shown is that a powerful wizard who can fight dragons and scry on distant lands and shit could waste his life being a doubly effective mason. But he's not going to do that, because double a mason's salary is still not enough to make a wizard that powerful bend over to pick it up off the ground.

-Username17

[MGuy]

Again I mentioned that you were intentionally shooting past my point and making shit up that isn't a part of the argument at hand. Now I don't know why you are doing this but I'm not gonna accept this as an actual argument until you stop being intentionally dishonest.

1 - I mentioned during the last post that at that point a wizard doesn't need a staff cause he can conjure it himself. This was mentioned please make note of it. And he can do it 3 times a day, and that's if we don't need to add extra shit on. A mason can build his 50 cubic feet per day a wizard can do more, doesn't need to GET materials, tools, or even most of the day and if he wanted to he can take an 8 hour power nap during the day and get more done. But that's not even the half of it, he "COULD" go to a different plane with slower time schedules and do so much more than that in a given day when he comes back. Also he can make this stone work take any fucking shape he wants with no margin of error.

2 - I need to re-highlight the fact that he doesn't need tools or materials. Which means the shit the masons need to create the wall, IE the bricks, that extra time spent getting whatever stone they can, working it into bricks, or getting clay and drying it into bricks. TOTALLY SKIPPED. Wizard doesn't need it. And his shit can be WHATEVER MATERIAL HE WANTS. These are ALL important facts you MUST RECOGNIZE.

3 - A point you've HAVE NOT spoken on. He doesn't HAVE to do shit by himself. He can use ANY NUMBER of his spells to multiply the production of others or he can have help from OTHER wizards!

4 - Again we WERE talking about mining. Don't know HOW we got to building other than the fact that I pointed out mr. wizard CAN DO BOTH AT ONCE.

5 - The bit about motivation you tacked on to the end was a nice point that was not being discussed. We WERE talking about production, then construction, now you're bringing in motivation and that one I will not even get into because different things motivate different people.

6 - This is a discussion about MAGIC in a setting affecting the economy, not the works of a SINGLE wizard affecting the economy. Please stop using the fact that I'm using only one person in my arguments and equating that to wholesale magic to mean that I believe one person is going to change the entire fucking world. I'm showing that 1 person can trump the work of more with magic. So here's a little equation to make sure you don't misunderstand what I'm saying.
Person with Magic > multiple people without.
So multiple people with magic > more people without.

So there it is. Please address my point and stop deliberately trying to break my argument by ignoring most of it.

Just in case you missed some of my major points.

A - Magic = Technology Better Technology = Economic Change. So current thought on economic models should be adjusted to consider the wide spread use of available technology/magic. The inclusion of said technology/magic significantly changes the economic model of a given setting if stable rules regarding use this magic apply.

B - Different settings implement different rules, power levels, blah blah of magic. Therefore the effect on the setting and any economic models OF a given setting vary depending on the parameters of the magic you're using. Example, we couldn't HAVE a global market without the communications technology we have now.

[MGuy]

Again I mentioned that you were intentionally shooting past my point and making shit up that isn't a part of the argument at hand. Now I don't know why you are doing this but I'm not gonna accept this as an actual argument until you stop being intentionally dishonest.

1 - I mentioned during the last post that at that point a wizard doesn't need a staff cause he can conjure it himself. This was mentioned please make note of it. And he can do it 3 times a day, and that's if we don't need to add extra shit on. A mason can build his 50 cubic feet per day a wizard can do more, doesn't need to GET materials, tools, or even most of the day and if he wanted to he can take an 8 hour power nap during the day and get more done. But that's not even the half of it, he "COULD" go to a different plane with slower time schedules and do so much more than that in a given day when he comes back. Also he can make this stone work take any fucking shape he wants with no margin of error.

2 - I need to re-highlight the fact that he doesn't need tools or materials. Which means the shit the masons need to create the wall, IE the bricks, that extra time spent getting whatever stone they can, working it into bricks, or getting clay and drying it into bricks. TOTALLY SKIPPED. Wizard doesn't need it. And his shit can be WHATEVER MATERIAL HE WANTS. These are ALL important facts you MUST RECOGNIZE.

3 - A point you've HAVE NOT spoken on. He doesn't HAVE to do shit by himself. He can use ANY NUMBER of his spells to multiply the production of others or he can have help from OTHER wizards!

4 - Again we WERE talking about mining. Don't know HOW we got to building other than the fact that I pointed out mr. wizard CAN DO BOTH AT ONCE.

5 - The bit about motivation you tacked on to the end was a nice point that was not being discussed. We WERE talking about production, then construction, now you're bringing in motivation and that one I will not even get into because different things motivate different people.

6 - This is a discussion about MAGIC in a setting affecting the economy, not the works of a SINGLE wizard affecting the economy. Please stop using the fact that I'm using only one person in my arguments and equating that to wholesale magic to mean that I believe one person is going to change the entire fucking world. I'm showing that 1 person can trump the work of more with magic. So here's a little equation to make sure you don't misunderstand what I'm saying.
Person with Magic > multiple people without.
So multiple people with magic > more people without.

So there it is. Please address my point and stop deliberately trying to break my argument by ignoring most of it.

Just in case you missed some of my major points.

A - Magic = Technology Better Technology = Economic Change. So current thought on economic models should be adjusted to consider the wide spread use of available technology/magic. The inclusion of said technology/magic significantly changes the economic model of a given setting if stable rules regarding use this magic apply.

B - Different settings implement different rules, power levels, blah blah of magic. Therefore the effect on the setting and any economic models OF a given setting vary depending on the parameters of the magic you're using. Example, we couldn't HAVE a global market without the communications technology we have now.

[Username17]

No. God damnit MGuy, stop being fucking retarded. You're the person who brought out the idea of wizards making magic items in order to revolutionize and industrialize masonry. And I shot that down, because it simply does not add up. Stop hand waving, stop making bullshit arguments. This is economics, there are numbers. Come to me with some fucking numbers or shut the fuck up.

1 - I mentioned during the last post that at that point a wizard doesn't need a staff cause he can conjure it himself.

So fucking what? The Wizard is more valuable than a fucking mason. His time is worth a lot. He's a powerful wizard, he could make 500 gold today just by scribing some fucking scrolls or contracting a Teleport. So anything he does economically has to be justified against doing that and using the precious metal to hire other people to do other shit.

Basically: Comparative Advantage. Look it up.

Anything the Wizard can do better than someone else can do it makes no fucking difference so long as it is still an even better deal for him to do something else that is even more profitable and then taking some of the profits to get other tasks taken care of for him. Spending 9 hours to prepare 3 walls of stone is simply less efficient than just hiring 3 masons to lay brick for 8 hours. While they are doing that, the Wizard can spend his time figuring out any of a hundred ways to make that much gold, and then he'll have more wall, more gold, and more free time.

2 - I need to re-highlight the fact that he doesn't need tools or materials.

So what? The materials have a cost. The wizard could hire quarriers, porters, masons, and caterers aplenty for far less than it costs him to take time away from making wealth through wizardly pursuits to go dabble in stone conjuration.

Again. Comparative Advantage. Look It Up.

3 - A point you've HAVE NOT spoken on. He doesn't HAVE to do shit by himself. He can use ANY NUMBER of his spells to multiply the production of others or he can have help from OTHER wizards!

This point doesn't even make any sense. Any task that he would be better off delegating to mundane filth wallowing peasants rather than sully his time with would perforce be a task that would be likewise a waste of the talents of every other wizard for the same reason.

4 - Again we WERE talking about mining.

Sure. Also transport. And lots of other parts of the economy. But again: ask yourself what the Wizard's time is worth. Any task that would require more time from the wizard than it would cost to contract to peons does not matter economically as far as something that Wizards would do.

5 - The bit about motivation you tacked on to the end was a nice point that was not being discussed

I thought the motivation we were assuming was:

• Make sure the walls are built.
• Spend as much time and gold as possible on snorting cocaine of the ass of a beautiful temptress demon.

If you want to claim that a massively intelligent and powerful Wizard has other motivations when making economic decisions, you're going to have to fucking explain yourself.

6 - This is a discussion about MAGIC in a setting affecting the economy, not the works of a SINGLE wizard affecting the economy.

Again and still: Comparative Advantage: Look It Up. As long as powerful magic users are rarer than peasants, and peasants are available in numbers, then every magic solution to any problem is going to be competing against bribing or threatening peons to take care of it. Further, if a task is better delegated to peons by one magic user, then it's better delegated by all magic users. And then the effect of MAGIC on that economic activity is: "fuck all."

Consider: imagine for the moment that doctors were somehow better at making french fries than ordinary mortals - and they could therefore make more money working at McDonald's than any normal assistant manager. What possible difference would that make? The number of doctors working in fast food service would still be zero. So the fact that a powerful D&D wizard can spend his day doing the work of 2.25 brick layers? Yeah, that doesn't mean shit either.

-Username17

[Endovior]

Consider: imagine for the moment that doctors were somehow better at making french fries than ordinary mortals - and they could therefore make more money working at McDonald's than any normal assistant manager. What possible difference would that make? The number of doctors working in fast food service would still be zero. So the fact that a powerful D&D wizard can spend his day doing the work of 2.25 brick layers? Yeah, that doesn't mean shit either.

Sadly no; there are totally doctors who work at McDonalds, despite being no better at making fries then ordinary mortals. That has to do more with stupid things like local laws and such being retarded and not recognizing doctors from foreign countries or whatever. (Case in point would involve a friend of a friend of mine who's actually a cab driver, despite having graduated from Harvard Medical, because of some total bullshit with the local government refusing to recognize his credentials.)

That said, in D&D land, you will still occasionally get Wizards conjuring up walls of stone for various construction-related purposes. Mainly, this won't have anything to do with laws, and more to do with logistics. If a wizard wants to build his wizard tower in the middle of a desert, or on top of a volcano, or on the negative energy plane, or anywhere else that's horribly inconvenient to haul peasant masons out to, then he'll actually have to use magic to get it built, simply because in the months it'd take to properly arrange transportation and supply lines from villages and quarries and whatever, the wizard could've magicked his tower up from the ground a dozen times already. Note, of course, that I said his tower. Wizards are unlikely to hire their services out as masons in this sense, because like you said, they've got better things to do. I suppose if some bard or king or something that's also playing in the same high-cash arena as the wizard is and wants some structure built in an awkward place right now, they might also bribe a wizard with an obscene amount of gold to get it done. But such things are the exception, not the rule. The only thing the wizard has going for him over the peasants is that using a wizard is somewhat faster and more convenient; the massive opportunity costs associated with using wizardly labor ensures that you won't find wizards doing this kind of thing often.

[Koumei]

I thought the motivation we were assuming was:

• Make sure the walls are built.
• Spend as much time and gold as possible on snorting cocaine of the ass of a beautiful temptress demon.

These are certainly the standard motivations when I play.

[RandomCasualty2]

I thought the motivation we were assuming was:

• Make sure the walls are built.
• Spend as much time and gold as possible on snorting cocaine of the ass of a beautiful temptress demon.

These are certainly the standard motivations when I play.

I generally find it's easier just to steal someone else's walls. It leaves more time for the other things.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Endovior, that post almost is logical. ALLLMOST.

It is true that due to whatever reasons, there are people not working at their capacity. But let me ask you this: If the restrictions on your friend being a doctor were removed and he could enter practice, would he stay at McDonalds?

There might be some factors that might make a wizard cast Wall of Stone rather than hire masons to do it. However I would contend that if he could go back to snorting coke off the asses of temptress demons while other, less important people do it, he would in a second. "Ugg, the Great and Might Merlin, reduced to the work of a common mason, it is almost more than I can bear!"

Let me try to explain what Frank is getting at in less abrasive language.

Take two people: A painter, and a lawyer. The Painter makes $10 an hour, the lawyer makes about $200 an hour. Assume 8 hour days/ 7 day weeks for both professionals (since wizards are wizards every day and don't have two days a week where they are not wizards).

The lawyer's house needs painting. He can take the day off work and paint it himself, but he would lose out on $1600 that he would have made that day. Paying a painter for 8 hours work would only cost the lawyer $80. Or he could pay 2 painters the same amount and get the work done in 4 hours instead of 8.

So basically, every time a wizard uses his resources (in this case, spell slots) on Wall of Stone, that's a resource that wasn't used on something else. Which means that it's just cheaper to hire masons to do it for him than do it himself.

There could be reasons why the wizard does it, but they are specific reasons and the opportunity cost makes it unlikely the wizard will take a job doing that.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Even the people going 'the clerics and wizards will go around during charity work' such as myself assume that there's nothing better for the spellcasters to be doing right then, like sealing the 7 portals of oblivion. Even if the spellcasters have no profit motive whatsoever and just want to help people, the chance of them having enough time (especially if they're high level) to go around building masonry is tiny. I mean, just researching a new spell or crafting the latest magical doodad can take several months and eats up all of your damn time--even if you were willing to take up a job as a freelance mason, where are you going to get the time? Therein lies the biggest problem with the whole analysis.

The only way 'it's magic!' really works for an economy is if the resources get filtered down to the lower masses like in Full Metal Alchemist and Avatar: The Last Airbender. Unfortunately, those settings are very much Not Feudal to begin with and have fewer time sinks for superpowered people to begin with. But then once you get to the point where a peasant can construct an abode home after an hour's worth of earthbending you have a setting that's extremely not like D&D to begin with.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Even the people going 'the clerics and wizards will go around during charity work' such as myself assume that there's nothing better for the spellcasters to be doing right then, like sealing the 7 portals of oblivion.

Of course. I use dollars and wealth because that's a more common denominator. "Cost" can be defined as anything; it could mean time spent away from things you'd rather be doing as well as things that don't have a dollar amount attached to them. (Having the world overrun with demons is not really good for most people.)

[violence in the media]

Well basically the main issue is that you'd be giving people all they could ever want at low levels and it removes the whole treasure gathering aspect of D&D.

I mean at that point, why have treasure at all?

Treasure adventuring after that would be for Giant Pennies and Other Bizarre McGuffins. Do you really adventure for solely for treasure after mid-levels? IME, adventures after that point are motivated by personal character desires, and "become filthy rich" usually isn't one of them, because you already are.

Also, I've toyed with the idea of +X weapons and armor as just being more awesome mundane work in the past. I think each "plus" was like 500 gold or so, and there was a separate "magical" enhancement for, I think, 5000 gold. The actual difference from the "expected" bonus value at a given level seemed pretty small.

[virgil]

One interesting tidbit in regards to a wizard's influence on the economy. Europe, as a whole, produced 60 thousand tons of iron per year in 1500. A single level 12 wizard produces about 18.4 short tons of iron with a single cast of wall of iron.

Going about his day in research and item construction, followed by a night of pleasure from his harem of women polymorphed into nymphs, he can still cast this spell once a day and personally increase the yearly production of iron over 10% in Europe.

[RandomCasualty2]

Treasure adventuring after that would be for Giant Pennies and Other Bizarre McGuffins. Do you really adventure for solely for treasure after mid-levels? IME, adventures after that point are motivated by personal character desires, and "become filthy rich" usually isn't one of them, because you already are.

Well no, but people generally want cool new adventuring toys.

Getting rich actually doesn't really matter so much as being able to find interesting stuff to use in dungeons.

[Username17]

One interesting tidbit in regards to a wizard's influence on the economy. Europe, as a whole, produced 60 thousand tons of iron per year in 1500. A single level 12 wizard produces about 18.4 short tons of iron with a single cast of wall of iron.

25 square feet / level. 1 inch thick per 4 levels. 75 cubic feet. Specific Gravity of Iron is 450 pounds per cubic foot. So 33,750 pounds. 16.875 short tons. Have I mentioned that I hate imperial units recently?

Anyway, your point is well taken about Wall of Iron. It's a large producer of raw materials. Now the demographics generator in the DMG is completely insane, so we take it with a grain of salt. But it tells us that we only have 12th level or higher Wizards in regions with large cities or metropolises, and that metropolises have a fuck tonne of them (a metropolis with more than 25,000 people in it averages 14 Wizards of 12th level or higher). That's obviously batshit, but even with more reasonable demographics it is likely that in D&D land iron ore is essentially worthless because everyone knows that iron comes from cities, where it is of course - created by magic to the limits that anyone can smith or sell. The Wizards of one major city could apparently fill the iron demands of all nations in the region, and more likely a smattering of wizards in various places produce iron as needed whenever reserves run low.

That would be an example where the magic option is worth doing from the standpoint of a Wizard acting in the economy, and which would therefore change the game. Since it's essentially a couple hours of work to get 16+ tons of iron into the economy, the amount of iron that is produced will be limited by downstream choke points. The Wizard won't bother making more iron than the blacksmiths forge. And the blacksmiths won't forge any more than the peasants and soldiers will purchase.

The big problem with the powerful wizard model of economics is that it doesn't trickle down. The Wizard can produce vast swathes of some things, but his amazing productivity does not change the productivity of anyone else. They are still a bunch of muddy peasants. There are some industries he can personally replace (iron mining), and some industries that he can't (masonry). But all he does to the industries that he isn't replacing is increasing their potential labor pool (there are more potential brick layers, because all the mundane iron miners are unemployed).

And since the Wizard does work at an amazing, even modern rate, his works are demand limited. There's no reason for a Wizard to continue working past the point he has made enough goods that everyone who can/wants to purchase one can do so. So lack of demand really does leave the wizard idle much of the time. A fact most of them are probably fine with, since it means that they spend a lot of time with their faces firmly between demon boobs.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

The Fabricate spell further throws things off balance.

The Fabricate spell doesn't charge upwards for quality. You also get a really, really good deal when you're working with metals, 10 cubic feet per level (or to put it in perspective, to start out with you can shape raw material the equivalent of 5 convience store refrigerators' worth of materials when you first get it).

So while people would not wipe their ass with using a fabricate spell to work brick or wood, it's an astonishingly good deal if you want to make something that takes a long time to craft (like books) or if you want to instantly equip your rag-tag guard force in conjunction with your wall of iron spell after a month's worth of work.

The combination of Fabricate + Wall of Iron would make city centers ridiculously powerful, all out of proportion with how the balance of power was located in medieval times. It'd make sieges complete suicide for an attacker because in the span of a few weeks a team of wizards working around the clock could arm the militia with ridiculous bling and siege weapons made out of metal on the fly. Of course the invading army would still have to make their siege weapons out of wood and shit and have to do things the long way because there's no fucking way they're hauling a steel catapult several miles. Hell, if a wizard really felt like it the local wizard's guild would take a few months off and reinforce the walls with steel. As in actually having 1" steel plating over all of the castle walls.

Of course this still wouldn't create any real wealth. Fabricate + Wall of Iron won't do a thing to increase housing or help farm crops.

I imagine the completely ridiculous situation of the city guard being blinged out in stainless steel plate armor and being able to give masterwork longswords to new recruits and the libraries in an average 25,000 person metropolis being the envy of even people like The Beast. But the peasants still live in thatched huts and throw their dung in the streets. The mage's guild would of course hold all of the damn power in the city.

[kzt]

Except for the clerics who get advice from omniscient beings. Really, if you have an omniscient being who is actually interested in talking to mortals you should listen to the guy who is getting advice. At the very least I'd certainly suggest against playing poker with him.

[RandomCasualty2]

The combination of Fabricate + Wall of Iron would make city centers ridiculously powerful, all out of proportion with how the balance of power was located in medieval times. It'd make sieges complete suicide for an attacker because in the span of a few weeks a team of wizards working around the clock could arm the militia with ridiculous bling and siege weapons made out of metal on the fly. Of course the invading army would still have to make their siege weapons out of wood and shit and have to do things the long way because there's no fucking way they're hauling a steel catapult several miles. Hell, if a wizard really felt like it the local wizard's guild would take a few months off and reinforce the walls with steel. As in actually having 1" steel plating over all of the castle walls.

Well I don't really think that sieges were ever really a factor in D&D, given that sieges are about armies, and we know armies suck. There is literally no reason to bring catapults to knock down a wall when you can just have your heroes fly over it, sneak in invisible or just plain hack through the fucker. Walls are nice to discourage casual bandits from just doing hit and run, but any serious attack force is going to have means of bypassing it.

The fact that the wizard can go around arming a bunch of nobodies for cheap isn't even something I remotely care about, given that they are a bunch of nobodies. While a group of massed archers can be relatively deadly if they can focus on one target, this is rarely going to ever happen, because it would only work well against siege-style threats, but we know sieges don't happen in D&D land.

[Endovior]

@ Arioch: Perhaps you misunderstand me.

First case, yeah; that's obviously true. Barring actually being prevented from doing so, doctors won't work at minimum wage. Wizards are, of course, the same way.

I generally agree with Frank's position, I'm just pointing out that the factors you're pointing out don't completely negate the usage of walls of stone in construction. Wizards only do the work of masons in the specific cases of "places where masons can't get to" (ie: the negative energy plane) and "for people who can't wait on masons" (ie: rich king wants a fort built like, now on account of an imminent invasion). In the first case, peasant masons actually can't do the job (or at least, not without an altogether impractical amount of extra clerics buffing... making a wizard cheaper in any event), and in the second, the opportunity cost is accounted for "You really want to hire me for that? Eh sure, kingy; it's your money, after all..."

Notably, neither case involves wizards taking away work from masons; this is actually wizards doing something that masons can't. This is wizards doing wizard work at wizard rates; and it doesn't meaningfully change the demand for ordinary masonry... it just makes available the possibility of instant masonry in improbable places, a niche market that only wizards can fill. And when that need comes up, wizards will fill it... because they're pretty much the only ones who can fill it.

It's entirely possible that wall of stone might be used a bit more then that, but not more significantly then "Eh, why not? I don't have anything else planned for my 5th-level spell slots today, may as well beef up the fortifications a little." That does take away a bit of work from masons, but it won't be done on more then an incidental basis. Quite seriously, it doesn't take more then a minute or two out of a wizard's schedule to cast wall of stone as many times as he can, so if he doesn't have other pressing plans for his 5th-level spells, it's something worth doing on the side. It's unlikely to be done more seriously then that, for all the reasons mentioned, except for the rare cases where wall of stone is seriously the only tool for the job... and in those cases, the wizard will be charging an appropriately high fee.

[Username17]

The Fabricate spell further throws things off balance.

The Fabricate spell doesn't charge upwards for quality. You also get a really, really good deal when you're working with metals, 10 cubic feet per level (or to put it in perspective, to start out with you can shape raw material the equivalent of 5 convience store refrigerators' worth of materials when you first get it).

Fabricate is only 1 cubic foot per level when you are working with minerals. Still, fabricate is a big deal in conjunction with Wall of Iron. Every casting by our 12th level maker produces 5,400 pounds of finished metal goods. If he is a skilled blacksmith (most wizards are not, but he could be), then it all comes out masterwork high quality steel. Magically creating textiles is pretty cool too. That actually is 10 cubic feet of material - and 120 cubic feet of fine spun died wool cloth is a big deal.

But yeah, it's pretty much meaningless when used on wood or stone. Similarly, the creation of food and water is pretty damn hokey. A subsistence farmer grows 44 cubic feet of food per year just to survive. A genie is more productive than that when making food, but not enough to feed a city or anything.

The bottom line is that when you've established what your magic can do, you've established what parts of the economy are rationally going to b displaced by sorcerers or modified by magical techniques.

-Username17

[virgil]

Odd, I calculated it in cubic inches (60x60x12x3), converted into cubic centimeters (1ci = 16.39cc), and used iron's density of 7.87g/cc; still getting 18.4 short tons. I can totally relate with the dislike of Imperial units, especially when I moved from physics to engineering where they apparently love the stuff.

Now I don't think the iron miners are wholly out of a job, as they could easily enough get into mining tin/gold/gems. I imagine there'd be a fairly decent industry in gathering the resources wizards use in their magic (gold is a material component for wall of iron).

It also got me thinking about other industries. In medieval Europe, you wanted your quarry to be as close to the construction site as possible. Transporting the stone cost more than the stone itself once it moved more than 12 miles.

What's interesting is transmute mud to rock. As building material production goes, it's downright astounding. The only flaw is that it's vulnerable to dispels.

Amusingly, shrink item by the same 12th level wizard requires his iron wall to be cut into thirds (though turning 6 tons into 3 pounds is still a good deal). As for his influence in the the mass transport industry, that's a really hard one to gauge; though I do like the image of the phantom pony express, with their padded iron tube holding enough packages to fill a wagon.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I completely forgot about fabricate to produce textiles. The cloths that are especially time-intensive are the best ones to make, especially since you could point at a beech tree & a bucket of berries and suddenly have a pile of suits and dresses with polished wood buttons. It does bring to question whether going for very base materials counts as low quality for purposes of the spell.

[Username17]

What's interesting is transmute mud to rock. As building material production goes, it's downright astounding. The only flaw is that it's vulnerable to dispels.

I think for that reason you'd be better off transmuting rock to mud and then dispelling it after you've had people form it into whatever shape you want. Two thousand cubic feet per level is pretty damn interesting.

-Username17

[kzt]

I think for that reason you'd be better off transmuting rock to mud and then dispelling it after you've had people form it into whatever shape you want. Two thousand cubic feet per level is pretty damn interesting.

Particularly when combined with the raw materials in the wall of iron. Steel reinforced Granite?

[MGuy]

1 - No Frank YOU stop being intentionally dishonest. I said that they could make a WAND. Wands cost less and are EASIER to make. I fucked up, accepted my mistake, saw that he'd need to be 12th level to make it and said he doesn't need to make the fucking staff. SO NOTE IT AND DEAL! Secondly, you yourself, in this thread and in the TOMES have accepted that the actual transfer of gold DOESN'T MATTER and that the actual thing that matters is fucking production. So quit quoting gold costs cause even WITH them I have shown that they could FUCKING bypass gold costs ANYWAY even though gold costs don't matter.

2 - Once again you're bringing in shit doesn't matter. He COULD make more gold THAT HE DOESN'T NEED, but as I JUST said I'm not getting into motivation. Bring up what he COULD be doing all you want but as I said I'm not getting into personal motivation especially if its over gold that the wizard doesn't care about. Yes the wizard COULD do something else with his time but it HARDLY takes time for him to cast the same spell 3 times in a row. It doesn't even take him a day, it takes him a few seconds to cast it three times then he leaves to do WHATEVER HE WANTS! He spends 8 hours of rest, that he's GOING TO DO ANYWAY and one hour of preparation, THAT HE'S GOING TO DO ANYWAY, and just assigns 3 of the MANY spell slots he's probably NOT gonna use on a regular day to cast it. THAT IS NOT A HUGE COST TO HIM AND WILL NEVER BE. The only time it would hinder him, is if he actually had to do something important that day which on the VAST majority of days he probably WILL NOT HAVE IMPORTANT SHIT TO DO. What's I have addressed the cost of hiring a wizard to do it. its 60gold A casting BY THE RULES. And by these rules if you fucking pay for it there is NO REASON it can't happen. So if the wizard wants to go through the trouble of hiring masons or throwing 60 gold he doesn't care about or need on ANOTHER WIZARD to do it I go with option "wizard do it".

Comparative Advantage? He has the LOWEST possible cost in just casting a spell. It doesn't COST him anything but a few seconds and some slots that on a regular day of down time he's not using ANYWAY.

3 - Again the best defense you can come up with is motivation. If he didn't CARE about peasants he wouldn't be the example now would he? What is and isn't a waste of time doesn't matter when we are talking about people. The point is he CAN do it and YOU can't come up with a reason that it isn't exponentially better when done with magic.

4 - What his TIME is worth is 60 gold per casting. Its in the PHB, hirelings Look it up.

5 - How could you quote me and then immediately dive into something I said I in the quote that I wasn't going to dive into. No I don't have to explain the motivations of others. I don't because super intelligence doesn't prevent Benevolence, kindness, artistic fervor. It just doesn't so I don't NEED to explain ANYONE's motivations because there are different people who will do different things with there time.

6 - I've exemplified Comparative Advantage in each part of my argument several times and you are actively choosing to ignore it. Technology simply replaces workers. When this happens workers need to become more specialized. Again magic IS technology, a technology changes the economy, fundamentally and thoroughly. Magic is not something you even have to be born with. You just have to learn it. The cost of living an all around better life is just time. Having a power drill that can burrow into a mountain, save lives, divine the location of ore, MAKE EVERYTHING EASIER DOES HAVE AN IMPACT. There are billions of people in the ancient world right? Even if 1 in every 100 was a caster and only 1 in every 100 of THOSE get to a level of 10+ then you have a full regiment of godly power tools that can do whatever they fucking want. ALL of them don't have to stick around you only need 1 benevolent enough to lend its power to a kingdom, hell, even make their OWN advanced civilization, train more casters to do whatever.

- Lastly your example is not comparable to the discussion at hand but lets play along. So lets make the comparison a little more fair. These doctors should be able to out produce a worker's entire day's worth of food making, in seconds, be able to not only create fries but ANY food they want to, in any way they want to without help or materials. But that's not all cure any disease, protect people, find people who need their help, the whole work out by themselves, whenever they want to, however they want to, and without any significant cost to themselves. Or if they REALLY want to hell they can multiply the production speeds of others.

So while they probably won't revolutionize the food making industry, even though they COULD. The many doctors who spend their time in foreign nations, amongst the downtrodden and ill can instantly fix their problems. They provide protection, medicine, food, and the ability to, just because they can and want to, teach these people who now have no major issues and loads of time, to do the same. I'd imagine that at some point there be a lot of tribal "doctors" around dragging their countries or at least their tribes out of the shit hole. Now because of a single benevolent doctor a tribe doesn't have to worry much about food, war, banditry, or disease, and can now focus on education because the more people who can do all this shit themselves there are the easier it is for the one doctor. However as we ALL can acknowledge there are multiple powerful AND benevolent (or bored) people out there who can and WILL do things just for the sake of others ESPECIALLY seeing as though there are gods of GOOD that guarantee a cushy afterlife for the people that follow them and help the sick and innocent. If the current churches are any evidence people will get together who are able to help as many people as they can, EVEN if the religion is bullshit.

[Alansmithee]

Well, it's interesting that this thread has not only shown that Habitat for Humanity can't exist (since even being charitable people would just work themselves and hire others to do the cheap labor/fix "greater" problems than just making 1 family a home) and also that the industrial revolution can't happen (since despite there being great advances in raw material production and production capability nothing happens since the world's still filled with stupid farmers). Also that the theoretical time of a wizard is both unmeasurable and nil (since they would rather wait 34 days + whatever time it takes to actually find the 500 skilled craftsmen [who don't exist anyways since everyone's just a stupid peasant] to build the castle along with finding and transporting the materials for these non-existent skilled craftsmen than take 2 days to do it themselves, being their time is so valuable).