The Story of BattleTech: What's wrong with it?

[Clutch9800]

A thread to discuss the various incarnations of BattleTech.

Strengths, weaknesses, future, and past.

It's all in play.

Clutch

[Rommie]

Everything story-wise up to the FedCom civil war = alright by me, with one exception (below). Some truth is stranger than fiction moments, but nothing out of deep left field.

Fedcom civil war - eh. Wacky sister with silver tongue convinces military to fight and die against supposed comrades, and the strongest ally they have. Stretches the rubber band close to the breaking point, but just barely holds on.

The Jihad snaps it. So many WTF?'s pop up that it's a blizzard. And it all starts (and is, sadly, good proof that it was pre-planned) with the Blake invasion of Earth years before, in the story and in the real-life writing timeline. Hey, Comstar, they're in ur base, killin' ur doodz! What, you are going to do NOTHING? That's the start of the story fail for me, now that the reason is clear.

I used to think Stackpole was somewhat of a hack back in the 90s - but he's gold compared to the replacements.

[magnuskn]

Hm, since you clearly want to remove BattleTech from the Catalyst situation thread, why not? Although repeating why I hate the whole Jihad thing isn't really something I'd look forward to. Suffice to say, Jihad sucks, Dark Age, too.

Meh, I guess I am still a bit pissed off about every second novel having been the same drivel about a Merc unit making it big against adversity. With the notable exceptions of the Camacho Caballeros novels, they all looked the same after a while.

Oh, and of course, killing Omi Kurita was a really stupid decision.

[Juton]

I really enjoyed the GDL novels by Keith, but yah, after a point merc unit makes it big gets tired. Battletech's novels have been primarily fixated on mech-combat on politics, which is what you expect from the setting but they really should have spent a novel or two telling the stories of people who weren't mechwarriors.

Killing Omi Kurita was stupid, if for no other reason than she was one of the few good (as in not evil) characters who had a personality other than 'generic mechwarrior template'.

Ok, here's the meat of the issue, the Jihad could have been handled well, and could have been really engrossing... if we didn't know who was behind it. If instead of just this maniacal Word of Blake we just had series of mysterious attacks, states tricked into fighting one another, entire fleets just disappearing in safe areas, that could have been interesting. Without thinking two hard you could have framed events to make it look like WoB OR Comstar was doing it, and maybe the FWL or some former FedCom schemer angry at the result of the war and a mysterious unknown faction. They could have still let the WoB end up being the big baddies but knowing how things where going to end just killed the suspense.

That's why I advocate jumping the timeline forward to 3133, which is about 50 years in the future of the current timeline. That's where the current MWDA timeline ends, we already know what happens up until then they need to get to a point where the story can be new again.

[Clutch9800]

Hey, Comstar, they're in ur base, killin' ur doodz! What, you are going to do NOTHING?

You say that the reason is clear to you why Comstar felt that they couldn't retaliate in kind against WoB.

What reason do you see?

Clutch

[Rommie]

Well, it's Terra - the focus of all the wars, to become the First Lord of a new Star League. Comstar and all the houses just ignoring a bunch of fanatical rebels invading it didn't make sense when it happened. The big reveal just enhances how Hand of the God-Writer it is.

The same crew that made the Smoke Jaguars look like cardboard cutouts in combat didn't feel like challenging the Word of Blake sitting on all the secrets of Comstar on Earth. <cue the stunned silence moment>

If any developer ever had the opportunity, and the brass ones, to pull a Xindi reset, that's the incident to go to and change.

[Clutch9800]

But,

Word of Blake already knew the secrets. Both Comstar and Word of Blake knew the secrets. Not your deckplate level Precentor of course, but the leadership was certainly in the loop. Focht knew.

It's everyone else that couldn't find out, especially the Clans, because if they did, there would be nothing to stop them, and all of them would come.

That would mean a Kerenskyesque Inner Sphere. The Word of Blake was wholly dedicated to the restoration of the Star League, and the destruction of the Clans. Comstar was willing to let them squat for the short term, because they had bigger fish to fry.

Clutch

[Fuchs]

What secrets?

[Clutch9800]

What secrets?

Secrets that have been hinted at since the Star League Sourcebook.

Clutch

P.S. I'm not going to throw any spoilers for those who haven't read the latest material. That could negatively effect sales.

[magnuskn]

What secrets?

Mostly holopics of Stefan Amaris prancing around in a pink tutu.

[Fuchs]

Does anyone have spoilers? I am not very likely to say the least to buy anything from CGL in the future anyway.

[magnuskn]

Does anyone have spoilers? I am not very likely to say the least to buy anything from CGL in the future anyway.

Tsk, it's a sad state when mention of Stefan Amarin in a pink tutu doesn't elicit interest.

But, sorry, I wouldn't know any detailed stuff, only what I hear from people who still buy the crap. I haven't bought a BT book since the 3065 readout. I guess I reached my BS capacity after that point.

[Fuchs]

My last TR was... hm... 3055? or 3058? I am not even sure.

[BeeRockxs]

But, sorry, I wouldn't know any detailed stuff, only what I hear from people who still buy the crap. I haven't bought a BT book since the 3065 readout. I guess I reached my BS capacity after that point.

67 you mean, right?
There was no 65 TRO.

[magnuskn]

But, sorry, I wouldn't know any detailed stuff, only what I hear from people who still buy the crap. I haven't bought a BT book since the 3065 readout. I guess I reached my BS capacity after that point.

67 you mean, right?
There was no 65 TRO.

Actually, 3062. The '67 one I already didn't have.

Man, it's really been a long time since I actually cared about BT...

[Clutch9800]

While I understand the logic of not spending your hard earned cash on something you don't care for, don't you think it's a tad unfair to characterize stuff that you have only heard about from other people as crap?

Since you don't care about BattleTech though, I guess it's moot.

Clutch

[Juton]

But, sorry, I wouldn't know any detailed stuff, only what I hear from people who still buy the crap. I haven't bought a BT book since the 3065 readout. I guess I reached my BS capacity after that point.

67 you mean, right?
There was no 65 TRO.

Actually, 3062. The '67 one I already didn't have.

Man, it's really been a long time since I actually cared about BT...

There is no 3062 TRO, there are TRO set in ..3057,3058,3060,3067 (among others), but not in 3062 or 3065. I've got to wonder why you're so vocal about CBT if you've never gotten into it.

[magnuskn]

67 you mean, right?
There was no 65 TRO.

Actually, 3062. The '67 one I already didn't have.

Man, it's really been a long time since I actually cared about BT...

There is no 3062 TRO, there are TRO set in ..3057,3058,3060,3067 (among others), but not in 3062 or 3065. I've got to wonder why you're so vocal about CBT if you've never gotten into it.

Actually I've been playing actively for eleven years and reading the stuff for 20. I've been a member of the MechForce Germany for 5 years and been the editor of the TerraPost ( the magazine for the MechForce Germany ) for a three years ( a post which I've given up a short time ago ). I've just gone pretty much totally apathetic about the whole storyline after the Grand Refusal, because it began to completely suck. And the game itself has been less and less exciting, because the overload of new game mechanics ( i.e. Mechs, weapons and systems ) seemed to be more about bloating the system instead of really necessary mechanical upgrades.

So, now that you got me energetic enough to get off my ass and check the readouts I have, you're right: It's the 3060 one.

And that I don't buy the books anymore doesn't mean that I don't keep informed about the storyline, Clutch. And it absolutely sucks.

[Clutch9800]

And that I don't buy the books anymore doesn't mean that I don't keep informed about the storyline, Clutch. And it absolutely sucks.

Well,

Your credentials speak for themselves.

What is it specifically that you find "sucks" about the storyline? I mean, aside from the odd hiccup here and there I think it's pretty elegant.

I, personally, HATED the Great Refusal, I thought that storyline sucked. That was a giant case of hiccups in my opinion. But then again, I like Clan Smoke Jaguar.

So long as you're energized, let us know what you really hate. Maybe I can tell you a few things you've missed.

Clutch

[Juton]

So, now that you got me energetic enough to get off my ass and check the readouts I have, you're right: It's the 3060 one.

And that I don't buy the books anymore doesn't mean that I don't keep informed about the storyline, Clutch. And it absolutely sucks.

Oh yeah, 3060 sucked, I know this because I can't remember 1 design or one write up from that book. 3067 also was pretty lame although I really liked the Project Phoenix write-up (mainly the art, most of the actual writing has been pretty lame). TRO 3075 is an interesting book, but still kind of flawed.

So I think I agree with you, a lot/most of the recent stuff (last 3-5 years) has either sucked or been mediocre. I really don't like the new core rule book Total Warfare, they filled it with a bunch of optional crap that I never touch (like integrating air power) and they cut out the mech construction rules and put them in a separate $40 book. To be honest I'm not blown away by the art either, but that could just be grognardism, and the organization isn't there because of the bloat of optional rules content.

So right now, a new Battletech player is going to end up shelling out around $120+ to get started (starter box, 2 core books) compared to around $65 5 years ago (different starter box + 1 core book).

I've always been a bit concerned about the future of the game because GW can force players to spend a lot of money every 5-8 years but I still know players that use the Battletech compendium from the early nineties and the plastic minis from the late eighties, so I don't know how they can make a profit.

And the game itself has been less and less exciting, because the overload of new game mechanics ( i.e. Mechs, weapons and systems ) seemed to be more about bloating the system instead of really necessary mechanical upgrades.

I agree with this to an extent. I think the influx of weapons into the core rules is about right, say for the last core book, that had a lot of weapons and most of them weren't previewed/vetted in an optional rules book first. I also think that after TRO 3055 half of each TRO (at least) has been bloat, except TRO Project Phoenix but that book is only half as long. There are a lot of designs that wont ever see play because they replicate something a cooler unit does, so they are absolutely a waste.

[Blasted]

I don't really have a big problem with the battletech storyline, in that it's always been quite hokey, so I've just learned to live with it. Otherwise I'd still be grumbling about the fedcom and the war of '39. The couple of posts above touched a nerve, however.

So right now, a new Battletech player is going to end up shelling out around $120+ to get started (starter box, 2 core books) compared to around $65 5 years ago (different starter box + 1 core book).

I've always been a bit concerned about the future of the game because GW can force players to spend a lot of money every 5-8 years but I still know players that use the Battletech compendium from the early nineties and the plastic minis from the late eighties, so I don't know how they can make a profit.

The CGL guys will argue that you only need the box set. Of course, you still need to buy TW, which is the 'real game', then you need to buy (at least one) TRO.
One of the things I really hate about the whole TRO setup is that you need the TRO and then if you want to use any of the variants, you also need to buy the record sheets. It's really annoying being lead on like that.
The tech manual can arguably just be replaced by SSO or Heavy Metal. You don't need to really know the rules to make a unit.

GW can change its army line up each time they print an army book (and sometimes in between.) Sometimes this can force new miniature purchases, but often I've found people buy extra minis because they look better or they just made a previously crap unit usable and everyone wants one.
CGL can't make money from requiring extra mini purchases, but they do like trying to get you to purchase more books. TROs sell the most, so when you're in financial trouble, sell more TROs.

And the game itself has been less and less exciting, because the overload of new game mechanics ( i.e. Mechs, weapons and systems ) seemed to be more about bloating the system instead of really necessary mechanical upgrades.

I agree with this to an extent. I think the influx of weapons into the core rules is about right, say for the last core book, that had a lot of weapons and most of them weren't previewed/vetted in an optional rules book first.

The refusal to modify the mechanics of battletech drives me nuts. It's like someone believes that the original rules set was perfect and can't be changed. Instead, rules get added and the whole game just bloats. I remember around 15~20 years ago there was a real move in the wargaming community for faster, more fluid systems. It seems to have left battletech behind.

I also think that after TRO 3055 half of each TRO (at least) has been bloat, except TRO Project Phoenix but that book is only half as long. There are a lot of designs that wont ever see play because they replicate something a cooler unit does, so they are absolutely a waste.

This touches on another of my battletech hates: useless units. WTF? Why must all of these books be filled with units no one would touch in their right minds?

[Juton]

A lot of people (on the CBT boards) will argue that all you need to get started is the core box. That's not true.

Up until recently if you where a new Battletech player you probably learned about it through the computer games, which is how I and most of the people I've gamed with where introduced to the setting. The poster mech for Battletech is the Madcat, it looks cool and it can fight. The boxset doesn't have any Madcats and you need TW to run one. If you want to modify one you need Tech Manual, and nearly every player I've played with loves customizing mechs, yes a design program can stream line this but it's a lot easier with some documentation. I just flipped through my BMR and the construction section is only a measly 15 pages, why do I have to pay another $40 bucks for 15 pages?

If CGL gets their act together they need to release a boxset with either a bunch of clan mechs or a collection of mechs popular from Mechwarrior 4 (Madcats, Daishis, Atlases etc). The need to include a simplification of the weapons and gear or maybe just simplified variants so people can play the mech battles from Mechwarrior 4 on the table top. They should also preposition themselves, assuming Mechwarrior 5 is going to be a reality they need a box set of those mechs, that will get a lot of people into the game.

[magnuskn]

What is it specifically that you find "sucks" about the storyline? I mean, aside from the odd hiccup here and there I think it's pretty elegant.

First off, Word of Blake pulling a huge fleet and enough manpower out of their ass to invade the whole Inner Sphere. Then all intelligence services in the IS utterly failing to notice that kind of troop build-up. Also them using nukes.

As we go further towards Dark Age, Devlin Stone being the ZOMGAWEZOMEOMGOMGOMG! most charismatic man in the universe, when we've never seen the guy being charismatic. "Show don't tell" is in full effect here.

Going after the Jihad, the whole "swords into plowshares" plot was terrible, too. Although, as I understand it, the great houses just pretended to destroy their mechs, so I may be underinformed on that point.

I, personally, HATED the Great Refusal, I thought that storyline sucked. That was a giant case of hiccups in my opinion. But then again, I like Clan Smoke Jaguar.

Oh, after they flattened Turtle Bay, I always thought that they had to go. So I am not upset at all about them.

Personally, I think the Grand Refusal shouldn't have happened, too. In my ideal universe, the Clans would have rallied after the Smoke Jaguars were kicked out of the Draconis Combine and rocked the IS forces back on their heels, bringing more home Clans into the IS and setting up more factionalized combat. After that, there should have been the FedCom Civil War, although without the incredibly stupid "Yvonne gets bad ratings and hands over the Federated Suns to Katrina" plot. After that Civil War, Katrina goes with Vlad to spawn devil children and we got a detenté between the IS and the Clans, with occasional raids.

AFTER that there are multiple ways to go forward. And involving WoB is natural, but not on the ridiculous scale which happened in the Jihad. WoB taking over the Free Worlds League would have been a good storyline. WoB taking over the whole IS and the mechwarrior messiah Devlin Stone appearing was not.

Oh yeah, 3060 sucked, I know this because I can't remember 1 design or one write up from that book. 3067 also was pretty lame although I really liked the Project Phoenix write-up (mainly the art, most of the actual writing has been pretty lame). TRO 3075 is an interesting book, but still kind of flawed.

It's just too many Mechs for this older getting man here. I know every Mech up to the 3055 Readout from memory and can probably tell you how much armor each of them has and which weapons ( don't ask about most Omni configurations, though ), but after that it all becomes a blur.

I agree with this to an extent. I think the influx of weapons into the core rules is about right, say for the last core book, that had a lot of weapons and most of them weren't previewed/vetted in an optional rules book first. I also think that after TRO 3055 half of each TRO (at least) has been bloat, except TRO Project Phoenix but that book is only half as long. There are a lot of designs that wont ever see play because they replicate something a cooler unit does, so they are absolutely a waste.

I am okay with the IS finally getting Ultra AC20's and the Clans advancing a bit with their Heavy Lasers and ATM's. But I think it was really unnecessary for Total Warfare to throw tons of new tech at us... what for? The game has enough components as it is.

BTW, I really don't think that the rules need to be revised to "faster play". The game itself is pretty fast as long as you get players who don't take forever to move their mechs and you don't love big LBX autocannons too much. Even if the rules should be reworked for faster play, you can't "rework" slow players. And the playerbase is much too small to kick anyone out.

[krainboltgreene]

I just started playing Armored Core 4 (PS3) recently (Today). It's fucking awesome. It's also incredibly detailed. I'd love to see it as a RPG.

BattleTech on the other hand is... Well, lets face it: BattleTech has no draw for any crowd beyond beyond the fans. The back story is half-lame and half-80's.

It's got that FASA dead smell.


Edit: Reading this thread, thinking about BT, and playing AC made me spit out in a spasm of 20 second writing: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2707131/coldsteel.html

[Juton]

BattleTech on the other hand is... Well, lets face it: BattleTech has no draw for any crowd beyond beyond the fans. The back story is half-lame and half-80's.

It's got that FASA dead smell.

I think everyone on this board has the opinion that the Jihad storyline of late has sucked. I'm not sure what you mean by 'has no draw for any crowd beyond the fans', if you weren't a fan of mech combat you'd probably never hear about Battletech.

As lame as Battletech has been of late who's done better?
Macross: Singing ALWAYS defeats the aliens
Gundam: There always seems to be one whinny emo kid that ruins things.
Heavy Gear: Rips off Mad Max, but so did Battletech, they're just late to the party