This is why we need regulations...

[Crissa]

So I'm pricing products to replace the roof of our new house. It hasn't been done in a few years. There's a few layers of asphalt composition shingles on the roof.

Now, here's some background in roofing, if you haven't done it before. 'Shingles' refers to the outer layering of small, easy to assemble and repair pieces that go on the roof. There's basically three layers in a modern sloped roof: A deck, usually of 1/4" plywood; a layer of weatherizing material, usually tar paper but often now many other things; and the outer layer which is harder and protects from the physical damage of the elements, usually composed of asphalt shingles.

You can get shingles or roofing in various materials: Tiles, made of terra cotta, ceramic, concrete, or stone; plates or shingles of steel or copper; shakes, hand split from cedar or made from laminate; laminate shingles made from fiberglass or stone and plastic composites made to look like the prior; and shingles made from coating thick tarred felt with ground stone or rubber particles - asphalt shingles.

Now, to confuse the matter, if you search for any of the above products, you'll find no company actually refers to their own product as asphalt anymore - they'll use the name of one of the other products. So one company calls theirs 'laminate' but they mean asphalt with fiberglass felt and ceramic granules baked on.

To make it worse, there are fire ratings, which asphalt can exceed, but never does as well as any of the other kinds of roofing, even treated wood shakes! And no one actually tells you the price, except for untreated shake or baseline asphalt at the market rate. So finding what a roofing product is made of is needlessly confusing as I have to actually often go and look at a sample to find out what it is made of.

So basically, unless the government steps in and says 'stop using the word of the day' whoever makes the bottom line product will do just that - select a word that sounds like (or is!) the same as a higher or top of the line product, and slap it on theirs.

Because for every confused user, you'd have to lose a user in disgust, and that's far more rare. This is why every base line product in a grocery is called 'premium' - even when it's the worst product on the shelf (and usually is).

-Crissa

[mean_liar]

Asphalt shingles are usually chosen because they exceed strict fire ratings that other types of roofing material don't. I don't know why you think they're inferior: they don't need maintenance and last 20-30 years.

I suggest calling local suppliers rather than Googling them. They'll actually tell you what you want to know. If only there was a link.

http://www.gaf.com/Roofing/Residential- ... 8-5073.pdf

[Crissa]

Asphalt shingles suck. They're gritty, messy, toxic, and don't take well to any sort of abrasive interaction with the environment.

They're cheap, can be made to beat the basic fire requirements - but will eventually burn very hot - and since they're toxic, they can resist mildew or fungus, but once it starts on them, you can't clean it off.

So if I can choose a roofing product that can be cleaned, you bet your sweet bippies I will. I live where there are trees, not those stubby bushes on sticks you city-folk call trees.

But there sure is something that any of the companies selling to consumers instead of developers want to hide their 'asphalt' behind 'fiberglass' or 'laminated' because they can. It's not like home owners are experts in these sort of things or that developers care if their roofing stock is toxic.

-Crissa

PS, why would you link to a product line that is nearly all asphalt, mostly not fungus resistant, doesn't has an average 7 years under warrantee, and isn't impact rated? Their product is like the worst. I nixed them right out of the box.

Notice how their link basically avoids saying that it's asphalt roofing, the link says timberline and their brand name for 'prestige' three times and 'lifetime' - but they're just gravel and asphalt shingles, and not even a very long warrantee? That's like my example in a nutshell.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I live where there are trees, not those stubby bushes on sticks you city-folk call trees.

Bless your heart, Crissa!

[Crissa]

Frank would say I live where there are bears. And while there may be the gay kind - I've only seen a coyote so far as our peak animal in the neighborhood.

-Crissa

[Psychic Robot]

So I'm pricing products to replace the roof of our new house. It hasn't been done in a few years. There's a few layers of asphalt composition shingles on the roof.

Now, here's some background in roofing, if you haven't done it before. 'Shingles' refers to the outer layering of small, easy to assemble and repair pieces that go on the roof. There's basically three layers in a modern sloped roof: A deck, usually of 1/4" plywood; a layer of weatherizing material, usually tar paper but often now many other things; and the outer layer which is harder and protects from the physical damage of the elements, usually composed of asphalt shingles.

You can get shingles or roofing in various materials: Tiles, made of terra cotta, ceramic, concrete, or stone; plates or shingles of steel or copper; shakes, hand split from cedar or made from laminate; laminate shingles made from fiberglass or stone and plastic composites made to look like the prior; and shingles made from coating thick tarred felt with ground stone or rubber particles - asphalt shingles.

Now, to confuse the matter, if you search for any of the above products, you'll find no company actually refers to their own product as asphalt anymore - they'll use the name of one of the other products. So one company calls theirs 'laminate' but they mean asphalt with fiberglass felt and ceramic granules baked on.

To make it worse, there are fire ratings, which asphalt can exceed, but never does as well as any of the other kinds of roofing, even treated wood shakes! And no one actually tells you the price, except for untreated shake or baseline asphalt at the market rate. So finding what a roofing product is made of is needlessly confusing as I have to actually often go and look at a sample to find out what it is made of.

So basically, unless the government steps in and says 'stop using the word of the day' whoever makes the bottom line product will do just that - select a word that sounds like (or is!) the same as a higher or top of the line product, and slap it on theirs.

Because for every confused user, you'd have to lose a user in disgust, and that's far more rare. This is why every base line product in a grocery is called 'premium' - even when it's the worst product on the shelf (and usually is).

-Crissa

You reasoning for needing regulations is because you don't know how to buy shingles.

Here, let me give a real reason why government regulation is necessary:

[Crissa]

That's the Ixtoc I failure in 1979, in Mexico, PR.

It's not like they've managed to oil up as many miles of their shoreline as we have since.

-Crissa

[Psychic Robot]

You've quite managed to miss the point.

[Grek]

HEUG IMAGE IS HEUG.

[Psychic Robot]

Fine, I'll change it. The bird makes me sad, though.

[Josh_Kablack]

Maybe if the bird stopped being an idiot and started voting it's own best interests....

[erik]

Regulation?! We don't need no steenking regulation!

The free market will take care of all those concerns.

[mean_liar]

PS, why would you link to a product line that is nearly all asphalt, mostly not fungus resistant, doesn't has an average 7 years under warrantee, and isn't impact rated? Their product is like the worst. I nixed them right out of the box.

Notice how their link basically avoids saying that it's asphalt roofing, the link says timberline and their brand name for 'prestige' three times and 'lifetime' - but they're just gravel and asphalt shingles, and not even a very long warrantee? That's like my example in a nutshell.

Average warranty across multiple products? Seriously? That's your measure? You're beyond help. It's a brochure. You read it and pick out the product that matches your need. "Ford sucks because they make sedans and I need a TRUCK" is not a valid complaint.

Timberline® ArmorShield II™ Shingles have a lifetime warranty and meet the UL 2218 impact test, and are certified up to 130mph. They (and every other product) are labeled "Fiberglass Asphalt Shingles". Yes, they are not algae-resistant (10yr warranty).

Just start going to manufacturer sites and downloading their product data sheets, and then actually read them. You're complaining because it's hard? You're nuts. Each manufacturer pimps out their data sheets to give you all this information and it's on their websites. If you want to get into the weeds of what a product can do, you need to accept that you might actually have to look for the information. What you're asking for is very high-end as far as roofing material is concerned - your sense of entitlement that you can't be assed to Google and read is a pretty lousy attitude.

[Clutch9800]

Just don't go with Shakes. If there's a wildfire the firefighters will drive right by your house because it's a lost cause.

I'm partial to Terra Cotta, but that's more a SoCal thing isn't it?

Clutch

[Crissa]

It's a brochure, and the products are only called asphalt at the very end. Many don't even do that (see owens corning's site, or GAF's site - asphalt won't be mentioned until you get to the very technical details of the product, appearing on no other pages.)

Actually, while many shakes are Class C, you can get them in class A. And unlike asphalt shingles, they can be soaked with water or hit with retardant and increase their resistance. But any shake or asphalt shingle roof is going to fail against convected heat because of the way they're build.

Personally, I do want a tile roof. But I have an old house that may not be able to stand the weight of standard concrete tiles. So I'm looking at composite tiles or laminated tiles which also don't have a flash-over point unlike asphalt shingles (and aren't toxic to the environment, can be recycled, and don't need toxic coatings to resist moss.)

California is still working on making the classifications go higher - because there's more ways for a house to burn in an environmental fire. You have radiant heat and convected heat which is more common ways for the house to actually catch fire. Glazed windows are required on all new buildings because historically, while a class A roof wouldn't case fire from falling brands - the inside of the house would burst into flames because of burning brush next to it. So it turns out windows are far more common entry points for fire.

Alas, I don't have tempered or glazed windows. Instead, very few of my windows face neighboring houses or directly into a grove. At least the prior owner got that right...

-Crissa

[PoliteNewb]

It's a brochure, and the products are only called asphalt at the very end. Many don't even do that (see owens corning's site, or GAF's site - asphalt won't be mentioned until you get to the very technical details of the product, appearing on no other pages.)

Um...I saw asphalt mentioned on p. 3, 4, 8, and very prominently on 25, as well as 31-33.

I checked Owen Corning, as well...all I had to do was click "how our shingles are made", and bam, it tells you about the high-grade asphalt they put in them.

What exactly do you want? It's not like it's really hard to find out that "hey, these shingles are asphalt". Have you tried something as easy as searching "NON-asphalt shingles"?

Do you think that people who care about asphalt in their shingles can't find out pretty quickly and easily whether or not their shingles have asphalt? Because I'm not seeing it.

EDIT: Since one of your earlier complaints was that they call their shingles "laminate" rather than asphalt...what exactly do you think laminated shingles ARE? Because one of the first hits on google when you search for "laminated shingles" is an explanation of "what are laminated shingles", describing how they are made of layers of asphalt. All "laminate" means is multiple sheets of material bonded together.

[Crissa]

Because laminated also includes the new tiles that are made from resin and fiberglass. They didn't call asphalt shingles 'laminated' until those came on the market. That's my point.

Sure, it says asphalt off the page where they're selling them. That's my point. If all you had was the glossy pages, you'd never know they contained tar.

And while I can google 'asphalt shingles' and find them - they also show up with any other word I can choose aside from asphalt to search for roofing shingles aside from registered ones.

-Crissa

[mean_liar]

If you want a specific product, the technical details are what you NEED.

Read them. They have all the info you want. They want you to be happy - they want you to buy their product. They actually do. Just read their product data sheets.

Websites are ads. You know what you want. You don't want ads. You want data. They helpfully give you that. Go look.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I'm going to side with Mean Liar. You don't make any purchase without checking the technical details.

[Crissa]

No, I don't. But it makes it so that for every product I look up, most of them - and I mean like three out of four - were just plain asphalt shingles I could get at Home Depot. That's alot of wasted time and clicking.

-Crissa

[K]

You know, there are 44,000 regulations involved in making a hamburger?

And not one that stop fvckers from destroying a four billion-dollar a year fishing industry.

I hate government.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

You know, there are 44,000 regulations involved in making a hamburger?

And not one that stop fvckers from destroying a four billion-dollar a year fishing industry.

I hate government.

It's pretty simple. People who make burgers are little. People who drill for oil underwater are big. the purpose of society if to keep the little people little and keep the big people big. That's not news.

[Judging__Eagle]

Honourable combat Count, it's all about 'honourable combat'.

But, yeah, like K said.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Honourable combat Count, it's all about 'honourable combat'.

But, yeah, like K said.

I also thought it amusing in Macroeconomics when the teacher said that the Government subsidizes tobacco farming, but not medical expenses related to tobacco smoking. I never seen so many people of disparate opinions agree so readily that it doesn't make any sense to do that.

EDIT: And if society was still based around honorable combat, I'd be the freaking king of Virginia right now. Unfortunately, it is not.

[Crissa]

And if you read Upton Sinclair, you'd know that there are good reasons to have many regulations involved in making of a hamburger.

But it still doesn't stop this or that which kill people every year, either.

We still have to try.

-Crissa