High Level Characters

[Red_Rob]

It is a given in D&D that characters can and will eventually reach high levels, and with this comes Earth shattering powers. It is also a given that when they do there will be something to fight, therefore (except in Ebberon) there must already be high level characters in the game world. In addition, in some settings there are Gods or God-Avatars wandering around the world as effectively high level characters.

So, how do you incorporate these into your setting? What effects would there be on society if it included individuals with the powers of an 18th level Wizard? Would the world devolve into a Dominions-style factionalised war between these superpowered characters and their pawn nations? Is there any way to rationalise the standard D&D setting with people and Gods who can destroy cities on a whim?

[Roy]

Is there any way to rationalise the standard D&D setting with people and Gods who can destroy cities on a whim?

Nope. But the standard D&D setting was never thought out to begin with. Hint: If you take a generic medieval fantasy world, and add Fantastic Cosmic Power (itty bitty living space) the result will not be a bunch of people living in rampant denial of their own reality by acting in a generic medieval fantasy way. It will mean the whole fucking world changes. Drastically.

[angelfromanotherpin]

In the setting I'm using, the Prime is a no-direct-action zone among the greater powers, but when anyone on the Prime reaches a certain level (10) they get recruited to join 'the next stage of the conflict' on the planes beyond.

So, yes, I mostly just chop off the top half of the game.

[Red_Rob]

I've been taking a look at other treatments of the subject and found 4 previous suggestions for how it could work:

War!
This style is exemplified by the strategy game Dominions. It posits that the various high level characters will ultimately shoot for Godhood, leading to a massive struggle as they coerce the various forces of the world to fight for them and eliminate the competition. Once one of them achieves victory they will jealously guard their position by smiting any up and coming challengers, leading to a period of relative peace and security, until they are overthrown / die when the whole thing kicks off again. Could be an interesting setting in either period, really.

Planar Travel
The Epic Level Handbook basically suggests that players should leave the world and travel to other dimensions to continue playing after level 20. This has the benefit that you don't have to bother thinking about how high level characters will affect the setting, because they essentially don't. Instead they affect an entirely separate setting only tenuously linked to your original setting. This can make everything they've achieved until now seem rather pointless and to me seems like a massive cop out, but this is from the book suggesting you run epic adventures by making the dungeon have adamantium locks on the doors, so i guess we can't expect any better.

Zero Sum Game
This setup is basically the one used by SuperHero comics since forever. There are super powerful evil forces trying to conquer the known world, and there are super powerful good forces trying to stop them, but they are both fighting each other too hard to really affect anything else. The effect on the general populace is fairly negligible, apart from the odd threat of annihilation or fallout from the battles. It has its own trope on TV tropes and falls apart because its unrealistic to assume that none of Team Bad ever realised they usually have enough resources to get what they want without having to fight people to get it. This setup really stretches versimilitude, as the idea that there is never any period of peace during which massive changes can be made seems pretty implausible.

What High Level Characters?
Eberron goes for the view that there are no high level characters, as they recently all died in a fire. Whilst this works in a specific sense, it is really just dodging the issue and can't be used for too many campaign worlds or people start asking really awkward questions.

Angel, you've said you went for option B. Was that because you didn't want to have to deal with the issues high level characters cause? Did you do any thinking on the subject?

I'm asking this because our current campaign is planned to go to around level 15 and I want the world to make sense when it does, rather than just having the players suddenly run into Epic level shit all of a sudden. If something comes along that can defeat everything the players have seen in the campaign world so far their natural reaction will be "So how come this thing doesn't rule the world?". I'd like to have an answer other than "Shut up and roll for initiative"

[angelfromanotherpin]

Angel, you've said you went for option B. Was that because you didn't want to have to deal with the issues high level characters cause? Did you do any thinking on the subject?

A large percentage of issues with the game start after anyone, PC or NPC, reaches ~11th level, whether it's warrior-types seriously needing their Artifact gimmes or casters getting access to effects that end any hope of a comfortably familiar setting. So to answer your first question, yes.

No, I didn't think too hard about it. It's not that kind of a game. The top of the setting is just a smaller number, and that seems to work fine.

[Lokathor]

In the vein of the Mortal World being a kind of "neutral ground", things in the Prime Material Plane just don't operate above level 10. If they're above level 10, they become literally weaker on the prime. That's my most common solution to it, but then you get into questions like "then why do powerful demons want to get there at all?", Bha I say!

[Aharon]

I actually like Zero Sum Game, because it is a bit similar to our own world. Yes, we don't have super powerful Evil forces, but at the height of the cold war, two nations had the capability to bomb the whole world back into the 17th century. And yet, what we got were only proxy wars. I know I'm oversimplifying the situation, but that was basically what it was like. So why shouldn't one include that in the game?

It breaks down if one assumes the existence of actual nihilistic pricks with that power, who don't want to rule, but to destroy. I just try to keep those out of my games, or make it clear to the players that those people don't have allies and are hunted by everybody.

[hogarth]

I go with "What High Level Characters?" with a little bit of "(Non-)Planar Travel". High level threats are generally far away (either on other planes or in other places so dangerous that people don't tend to settle there). The PCs are exceptional individuals; after level 6 they're living legends like Hercules, etc.

[Josh_Kablack]

As a blend of "What high level characters?" and "Planar Travel" You could have The Dial only goes to 10 around these parts. Explicit in TORG, the Life of Riley Webcomic and the occasional GURPs supplement - implicit in much of Zealzny's - physical and magical properties work differently on different planes/worlds/shadows/etc. There is a limit to how much magic / high tech / phlebotinum that Earth/ The Prime can handle.

Sure planeswalkers, demigods and demonlords are some absurd level like 15th, or 21st or 9999th or something, but when they come to the prime they can only manifest as 10th level characters - only spells of 5th level and lower work, weapons and armor only augment up to +3, HP are capped at 400, etc etc.

This set up results in a world where high level characters can be high level, but do not personally pursue their objective on the Prime - why take the risk and loss of power? - Instead they send and recruit proxies to handle their objectives on the Prime for them.

[RandomCasualty2]

This set up results in a world where high level characters can be high level, but do not personally pursue their objective on the Prime - why take the risk and loss of power? - Instead they send and recruit proxies to handle their objectives on the Prime for them.

The main problem I see with this set up is that it leads to "Why risk the outer planes?"

Because seriously if you're at max level, and are basically the biggest fish in your small pond that people can only hope to equal but not exceed, then seriously, why go out to the planes where you're going back to being a small fry again?

I mean sure the planes are great when you're a level 100 god. But just being a level 10 character first setting out amongst everyone awesome, you need a good reason to effectively going back to being a first level newbie again. And at that point you're no longer really protecting the people you know and care about, because you're actually better suited to handling a threat on your home turf as opposed to the planes, because your planar enemies are basically going to be bigger than you on the planes, but equal to you on the Prime. So seriously? Why ever leave?

[Red_Rob]

seriously if you're at max level, and are basically the biggest fish in your small pond that people can only hope to equal but not exceed, then seriously, why go out to the planes where you're going back to being a small fry again?

I mean sure the planes are great when you're a level 100 god. But just being a level 10 character first setting out amongst everyone awesome, you need a good reason to effectively going back to being a first level newbie again. And at that point you're no longer really protecting the people you know and care about, because you're actually better suited to handling a threat on your home turf as opposed to the planes, because your planar enemies are basically going to be bigger than you on the planes, but equal to you on the Prime. So seriously? Why ever leave?

This touches on one of my major gripes with Planar adventure. Why bother going to the planes at all? Particularly with the Blood War, a constant and unwinnable conflict, why even get involved? Presumably the characters have been fighting for something on their own plane for the last 10 levels, so I find it hard to see why they suddenly want to leave all that behind.

[mean_liar]

So, how do you incorporate these into your setting? What effects would there be on society if it included individuals with the powers of an 18th level Wizard? Would the world devolve into a Dominions-style factionalised war between these superpowered characters and their pawn nations? Is there any way to rationalise the standard D&D setting with people and Gods who can destroy cities on a whim?

1. The Prime is a no-go above a certain CR, with certain negotiated exceptions. It's been blown up too many times to not have imposed and/or enforced restrictions.

2. Most nations with 18th+ level casters available are playing in their own sandboxes, currently trying to rebuild following the eradication of Epic spellcasting and it's effects in the Prime. The world doesn't explode for the same reason that there's not a major nuclear exchange going on in the current world.

[K]

I think most settings in DnD assume that there are lots of powerful neutral forces in the world who may be personally good or evil, but they aren't really pursuing any active goal. Then, at some point, someone tries to push his local slider on the Good/Evil scale and suddenly people start taking sides and the war is on.

That, and that there are some places where Team Good or Team Evil has just won, and no one powerful really cares enough do anything about it.

So Elminster, the most hated NPC of all time, really does spend his days reading old books and taunting the locals with his crotchety old man impression and just leaves the Zhents alone because he knows Team Evil has won that city and he really doesn't care enough to spend the next few years trying to change it. Mostly because he doesn't see the point and really likes reading books and dislikes spell-duels with random-ass liches and stuff.

But, should villain pop up with a decent plan to take over a nation or two he rallies together some other people currently picking their noses and takes care of it, since stopping a plan takes a lot less time than conquering a region or pushing a war. Then he goes back to his books. Heck, sometimes he just subcontracts out the quest so he gets more quality time with his books.

Although adventurers run on a "constant war" model where they must constantly chase more XP and magic items through constant conflict with level-appropriate enemies, I see no reason why NPCs would do the same. I mean, the heroes of Good really do like to see their kids once in a while and villains of evil really do want quality time in their harem, so constantly being in conflict with others in pursuit of personal power and domination does not make a lot of sense. I mean, its the guys without harems who are trying to take over the world..... the guys with harems don't know or care that they are 5K XP from their next level because they have what they want out of life: an awesome harem.

[Koumei]

I mean, its the guys without harems who are trying to take over the world..... the guys with harems don't know or care that they are 5K XP from their next level because they have what they want out of life: an awesome harem.

This makes sense to me. If I had "immunity to negative levels" and more succubi than I could reasonably interact with at a time, gaining levels and killing the next biggest thing would not be high on my list of priorities.

[Agrinja]

It makes a great deal of sense, really. The big evil guy has a goal. More often times than not it's a goal that doesn't involve world domination, or eradication of everything but the undead, or something far reaching. In at least -some- places they've got to have achieved what they want, and saw no good reason to go further. Especially sensible ones who go "Why rule the plane? That's too much work. I'm going to sit here, run a tight ship with my small country and enjoy the hell out of all the decadence I can manage to fit in a day."

[Dominicius]

Ok, what is this about Eberron not having high level characters? If you have ever read Dragons of Eberron (and I won't blame you if you haven't, that book is so full of dragon wank and lame excuses that it really just feel like you are reading 40k Eldar material at times) you will know that Argonnessen is billed as the high-level/epic level adventure continent.

There is a whole frikken city there where even the commoners have 8+ levels, while the actual characters that rule the city are in the 14+, including people over level 20.

Khornvair is kinda expected to be the place you conquer once you go over level 12.

[squee_nabob]

I've always wanted to run a game where when the players hit 10th level, a group of several high level casters teleport in, and tell them to gtfo the material plane, because high level casters rule the material plane from their magnificent mansions and don't want anyone challanging them.

The goal of the campaign would be of course to kill them and take their stuff.

[Roy]

The easiest explanation I've found that works for me is 'too small'.

Consider all those Kings and whatever, level low teens to mid teens. It's not that there isn't a single level 15 character who could kill him and take his stuff (kingdom) or multiple lower level guys who can work together to do the same. It's that the stakes (one kingdom) just aren't worth their time. So why is the King a King and not a World Emperor at the minimum? He's an NPC, he has to take what he can get.

People for the PCs to kill and rob come about when NPCs don't follow this status quo and try to do things like 'take over the world' or 'blow up everything' or whatever.

[FatR]

There is a sharply limited number of really awesome people in my setting. While 90% of them work to change the world to their liking or simply to grab power, because that's what people with enough drive and willpower to go above level 5 do when they get really awesome (other 10% channel their energy into research), the areas they can directly influence are territorially limited, simply because there are still only 24 hours in their day and most of them like to rest and enjoy life from time to time too. So the world has areas vastly different in prosperity (not unlike our world), with shining magical empires towering over the pseudo-medieval states. Magical shit hitting the fan from time to time, because some of said empires decide to nuke each other or tear themselves apart in struggles of superhuman pretenders for the throne, or because someone got a bright idea to summon/create some world-eating thing, forcing gods to go into the apocalypse prevention mode and smite a continent or two; as well as simple stagnation in the number of high-level characters due to lack of meanigful adversity; serve to ensure, that the world isn't yet covered with magical empires entirely.

[Red_Rob]

shining magical empires towering over the pseudo-medieval states. Magical shit hitting the fan from time, because some of said empires decide to nuke each other or tear themselves apart in struggles of superhuman pretenders for the throne, or because someone got a bright idea to summon/create some world-eating thing, forcing gods to go into the apocalypse prevention mode and smite a continent or two

This is more the kind of setting I think should be the D&D default. The Forgotten Realms / Tolkien pastiche fails to account for so much of the actual game content that its like a computer game that gives you epic summons one minute and has you searching for a key to get through a locked door the next. Total Rules/Fluff disconnect.

Elminster, the most hated NPC of all time, really does spend his days reading old books and taunting the locals with his crotchety old man impression and just leaves the Zhents alone because he knows Team Evil has won that city and he really doesn't care enough to spend the next few years trying to change it. Mostly because he doesn't see the point and really likes reading books and dislikes spell-duels with random-ass liches and stuff.

I'm not sure about this view. If you much prefer to cosy up by the fire with "Tobin's Spirit Guide" than battle the forces of darkness, how do you even get to high levels? I always assumed that book learning would only take you so far in D&D. A Mage might make lvl 5 or 6 through years of studying the mysteries of the cosmos, but to get to high levels you have to apply your knowledge in a practical sense, or seek out new forms of magical knowledge in forsaken places (i.e. Adventuring!). It takes a lot of dangerous encounters, risking death or worse, and usually a whole lot of bloodshed to even get to level 10. I always imagined that anyone going to all this effort to expand their magical knowledge to world shattering heights would actually have some idea of what they wanted to do with this power when they got it. Its often said that people who lust for power are the ones who should never be given it, and these people lust for power more than anyone else on the planet. Now they have it they just want to chill and keep the peace? Seems unlikely to me.

Although, if the only people with the power to make things better can't be bothered, and would rather spend their time hanging out on the Elemental Plane of Cocaine with a bunch of Succubi, it does explain why the D&D world is so oppressive and backwards!

[Judging__Eagle]

One does not spend their time in the plane of Cocaine.

As it does not exist.

However, with just a tiny amount of the stuff; you can create massive quantities; that can last for hours.

So, the wizard is a person who has massive parties, when consuming anything from 'plants'.

[K]

I'm not sure about this view. If you much prefer to cosy up by the fire with "Tobin's Spirit Guide" than battle the forces of darkness, how do you even get to high levels?

Well, "leveling" would just be a phase people go through. They start with a goal like "kill the Wytch King" or "avenge my sister" and they end up at some high level when that goal is accomplished. Then they go back to their lives.

People get burned out and change careers all time. They have no obligation to use the skills they have, especially when the reason they had for risking their lives and/or souls has been accomplished. Even champions of good could decide that they've done their part and now want to live the quiet life. This doesn't mean they can't be convinced to come out of retirement, but they could be perfectly ok with letting younger adventurers take the lead.

Elminster's goal was obviously "fvck a goddess of magic." After that, I don't imagine there is much that convinces him to pull his traveling boots out of the closet.

[mean_liar]

Keep in mind that they're NPCs, and by my reckoning that marks them as different from PCs. They're not there as the primary movers of fate, they're there as supplemental pro/antagonists to the universe-changing destinies of the PCs.

[RandomCasualty2]

The easiest explanation I've found that works for me is 'too small'.

Consider all those Kings and whatever, level low teens to mid teens. It's not that there isn't a single level 15 character who could kill him and take his stuff (kingdom) or multiple lower level guys who can work together to do the same. It's that the stakes (one kingdom) just aren't worth their time. So why is the King a King and not a World Emperor at the minimum? He's an NPC, he has to take what he can get.

That's not a bad model, it's just that the rules totally don't support it. Unfortunately, due to the fact that gold = power, it's always totally worth ganking some king and taking his shit. The very fact that you have the gold to afford armies and castles means that you have enough money that may be valuable to someone.

Unfortunately, the money curve isn't steep enough for a "it's not worth it" model to adequately work. Knocking over a king and his kingdom isn't just a drop in a bucket for most people, it's still a decent amount. And if you can do that with minimal risk, then why wouldn't you? It's probably easier than just going out and fighting dragons.

[mean_liar]

This is one reason why I use the Magic of Rokugan method of magic item creation and assignation: characters have their wealth-by-level in magic items, which represent awakened spirits residing in their item housing. You can always make more than your wealth-by-level in permanent non-artifact items, but the enchantment on those items fades if wielded by someone unworthy (ie, with more than their wealth-by-level allotment).

NPCs get less wealth-by-level because they're unfavored by the Fates, too bad so sad.