Stealth Buffing

[virgil]

Here's the background...

So, I'm running a Pathfinder adventure path (PF by popular demand, they hate everything Tome), and it's exceedingly difficult to give buffs to my players because I prefer not to change the rules unless I can get a majority approval. Hell, the only real time I've actually said 'no' to something they wanted was for requested nerfs, such as criticals only multiplying the base weapon dice.

They've recently made a new party that's a bit more powerful after the vicious TPK they received from two vampires of equal CR to the APL, and have recently reached 10th level.
* Warmage/Arcane Missiler (magic missile PrC) with arcane thesis and a few other metamagic feats
* AC-whore bard (upper 30s) with Goad and the inspire courage buff spell from SpC
* Healing+buffing cleric w/some splat feats to make his Channel a swift action and +3d6 healing, along with a custom item to make all of his touch-range buffs/heals have a 30' range
* PF Summoner whose eidolon averages over 100 damage
* Str-focused, falchion wielding Ninja Spy with a feat to make all crits auto-sneak attacks and all sneak attacks to lower SR by 5; the weakest PC, but looks flashy as he tumbles and jumps through everything

They largely keep level appropriate through a combination of optimization after dying to the 'hard' adventure path as well as giant piles of money to push them over their expected WBL as well as stacks and stacks of healing consumables for all the ability damage and negative levels and damage they run into (every mook for the last three sessions had two Cure Moderate potions they couldn't use in time before dying).


And here's the challenge...

I've got a new player joining the group. I was told he's quite experienced with 3.5, which probably should've been my first clue. I managed to get his stats e-mailed to me before the session tomorrow. He's chosen to play a monk

AC 24, 96hp, Flurry +13/+13/+8/+8 (2d6+4+1d6 fire from amulet of mighty fists), Stunning Fist 10/day (Fort 19 or 1rd stun), Saves +11/+12/+14, Spider Climb slippers, etc

I know the party isn't going to approve of crazy stuff like me offering a Tome monk, so my current recourse is to tweak the treasure tables of the adventure to include awesome stuff that would be of obvious utility to a monk.

Does anyone have any loot suggestions that would help give him his own role/niche and not be utter crap?

[magnuskn]

Well, my advice is that the other PC's sound super-twinked, but if you use a lot of 3.5 splats they will always end up like this... while your Monk player seems to have built him by core rules. Maybe use some stuff from Bo9S, then the usual Monk pusher stuff. Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, the Monk's Robe. That should up his unarmed damage at least to 4d8+ the rest.

Not sure what to do about his to-hit numbers, though, that's always a Monk problem.

[Akula]

+wis to hit would work and you could and it to a monks belt kind of thing. He needs resistance bonuses to his saving throws and a + to his wisdom. He needs an item of Lion's Charge at will. Give him some riders to his unarmed strikes and some stuff to up his hit and he might be okay.

[Juton]

Oh how I fucking hate monks. He should have at least 30+ AC, have 20+ to hit with his attacks, have about 50 more HP and be able to put out 50+ damage a round on average. The AC is easier to fix, just drop a wand of Greater Mage armour, maybe one of Bark skin. The HP can be fixed partially with a Con-belt, but generally max HP is not that important.

The real problem is his fucking weak-ass attacks. He seriously needs to do at least 20 damage per punch and have a huge boost to his to-hit. This takes us out of the realm of stock items, although a +5 amulet of mighty fists could help. If they where smart they'd sell it though since it's worth so much gold.

My ideas:
A macguffin that lets unarmed attacks be touch attacks. This is a nice fix that doesn't require much book keeping, for some reasons monk types really hate being forced to have full-BAB. This macguffin could perhaps add a character's monk level to damage, without adding a bazillion extra dice to roll.

[hogarth]

Maybe some of those Quori embedded shards from the Eberron Campaign Setting, e.g. some of the ones that give +2 armor bonus or the one that gives a size increase to his unarmed strike.

[Juton]

Well, my advice is that the other PC's sound super-twinked, but if you use a lot of 3.5 splats they will always end up like this... while your Monk player seems to have built him by core rules. Maybe use some stuff from Bo9S, then the usual Monk pusher stuff. Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, the Monk's Robe. That should up his unarmed damage at least to 4d8+ the rest.

Not sure what to do about his to-hit numbers, though, that's always a Monk problem.

I don't even think the other characters are super-optimized, one's a Warmage for goodness sake! It's just Monks are so full of suck they need extra help.

EDIT
Also a wand of high level Greater Mighty wallop could also help to add to damage.

[Echoes]

Gloves of permanent wraithstrike/greater mighty wallop. That should fix the attack/damage issues.

Alternatively, just have him make a Swordsage (give him Adaptive Style as a bonus feat).

[virgil]

Book of the Nine Swords isn't an option. They revile it almost as much as Tome for being overpowered.

The rest of the party is about as optimized as they know how, which for the PF adventure path is actually sufficient (lots of classed NPCs). If I 'happened' to drop a +5 amulet of mighty fists, they're certainly not smart enough to try and sell it. Hell, just a +5 amulet would actually put him slightly ahead of the rogue in offensive capability (inspire courage does more for him than the rogue).

As for the Cloak of Resistance, he's already wearing a +3 one, which I included in the stat summary.

I'd like to consider role to though. I can't just give him a +X to attack and damage, because that leaves him looking like the party rogue without disable device, and the one thing he is good at (jump) isn't all that unique because the rogue happens to be using my Ninja Spy PrC. An item of wraithstrike for his fists is certainly an option, since that's different enough from sneak attack with a sword. I'll likely have to tweak it to include a 'limiting' mechanic so the rest of the group doesn't cry foul (le sigh).

[CatharzGodfoot]

Sword & Fist equipment, like tiger's leap sandals and ki straps.

[K]

It sounds like the whole party sucks, with the Summoner being the only exception. A core Monk should be fine.

[RandomCasualty2]

Book of the Nine Swords isn't an option. They revile it almost as much as Tome for being overpowered.

I'd like to consider role to though. I can't just give him a +X to attack and damage, because that leaves him looking like the party rogue without disable device, and the one thing he is good at (jump) isn't all that unique because the rogue happens to be using my Ninja Spy PrC. An item of wraithstrike for his fists is certainly an option, since that's different enough from sneak attack with a sword. I'll likely have to tweak it to include a 'limiting' mechanic so the rest of the group doesn't cry foul (le sigh).

Wait, they won't allow the Book of nine Swords, but you think they'll allow wraithstrike?

That makes no sense to me.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Wait, they won't allow the Book of nine Swords, but you think they'll allow wraithstrike?

That makes no sense to me.

It's a spell. Of course it's not overpowered. It's meant to be used by the weakest class in the game: the wizard (worst HD and BAB of any class).

[Username17]

Wait, they won't allow the Book of nine Swords, but you think they'll allow wraithstrike?

That makes no sense to me.

People who have long discussions about whether such and such a feat make a Fighter overpowered at level 12 have no problem at all with a second level spell that grants a feat. Seriously.

"Make it a spell" solves fucking everything. You could just have some DC boosters and charm fucking monster and persuadatron the entire adventure into following you and people still wouldn't think that was as "broken" as the Monk doing some Con damage with his fists or the Ranger getting a critical modifier on arrows. The fact that it's a Wizard casting it as a stand alone spell completely isolates it from the balance discussions these mouth breathers have amongst each other. This is not a rare breed of people.

Yes. Wraith strike is by itself a bigger deal than the entirety of the Book of Nine Swords. Nothing that a War Blade can do at 17th level is as ultimately impressive as what that spell accomplishes at third. But because it is specifically a "spell" it gets a free pass on such mundane concerns. This is what K and I have been fighting with the Tome material for years. You issue some nerfs to planar binding and a buff to single classed fucking Barbarians, and people condemn you for years for being a munchkin. Because they have no sense of scale or proportion. At all.

And yes. V, you should send your players to read this thread. Especially the new guy. He needs to understand that his character fucking sucks. And he needs to understand that the only way his character will survive or accomplish anything is because DM Pity is prepared to give him substantial amounts of power. And finally, he needs to understand that the reason his character fucking sucks is because the rules for his character class are not well written or concepted, and that this is not his fault.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

Yes. Wraith strike is by itself a bigger deal than the entirety of the Book of Nine Swords.

Yeah pretty much. ToB has a single broken power, and that's White Raven Tactics. Everything else is unimpressively useful or straight up sucky.

[K]

Personally, I think you should adjust the CRs of everything by like 4-5. The Summoner is the only one that is vaguely competitive since at 10th level he's getting some good 4th level spells that are 5th level on the Wizard List.

Your entire party sucks, and the only answer to having a bunch of bad players is to softball all the encounters. The other answer is to hand out artifacts like party favors and wait for the inevitable TPKs.

Level 10 is when things get dicey, so I think you need to toss in True Res items and focus on having fun because they aren't going to be surviving any encounters straight out of the book.

[Maxus]

Throw in some McGuffins which give stuff like Collision. Keep it low key. Hell, make it a sidequest which gives regular damage buffs/properties.

Ignoring DR is a nice tough. But put a restriction on it, like that it has to be a full attack, or something.

[virgil]

The Summoner is definitely the power player of the bunch, and the average damage of the eidolon is after the inclusion of bardic music and the summoner's haste. It does about 50/round otherwise.

The warmage keeps up with the summoner on rounds that matter through sufficient metamagic whoring for magic missile. He's judicious enough (no 100 damage castings if the eidolon's next to it) and has enough spells per day that it actually takes a while before he starts doing low damage.

The bard, indirectly through bardic music, does decent enough damage. With a literal taunt, he fills the tank role quite well. I can honestly say not a single noncaster in the rest of this adventure path can hit him except with a natural 20. Except for the monk & bard, the AC range of the party fits on the range of 25 to 28.

There's only like three creatures out of the next six sessions and two levels with an attack bonus higher than +15 (+17, +19, +28 respectively), the rest will be +9 to +13. The highest AC will be 31, but will largely be 16 to 24.

This AP is EZ-mode compared to Paizo's usual fare, and it still ate the party up and spat them out until they finally had a TPK at level 7, which convinced them to optimize as much as they knew how. Back when they were 5th level, I almost had a TPK from three shadows (barely managed to flee), and a second near miss that level when they fought a Large water elemental in a pool (two went unconscious from holding their breath). Heck, K's suggestion of low-balling encounters has essentially been done for me because of this AP's obsession with using just humans with class levels.

This is what I have to work with. And this newcomer looks like he'll fit right in with that monk of his.

EDIT: I avoid telling my players about this board. They largely disagree with this board's conclusions about balance, and one of them remembers Frank back when he posted on Paizo's boards. He specifically and explicitly told me he will never accept any conclusion or creation (regardless of validity) of Frank or K because they're assholes.

[K]

EDIT: I avoid telling my players about this board. They largely disagree with this board's conclusions about balance, and one of them remembers Frank back when he posted on Paizo's boards. He specifically and explicitly told me he will never accept any conclusion or creation (regardless of validity) of Frank or K because they're assholes.

Funny, but not surprising. Paizo boards have a lot of people who are terrible at all aspects of the game, and they deeply resent it when you point that out (also not surprising).

Luckily, if the AP does use a lot of classed NPCs, you might be OK. Published NPCs are always designed extremely poorly. Just toss in a lot of scrolls for when they encounter real opposition and play all the monsters with "moron-level" AI.

[NineInchNall]

God damn. What is it about this hobby that attracts such mongoloid wankers?

This was actually the primary reason I was such a lover of the TTMULCOB thread back when it was, you know, not full of trolling and baiting and doing-it-for-the-lulz. It served as a way to ease the frustration of dealing with the asshats.

Anyway, my take on your situation is this. Ask yourself whether you think the players are capable of learning. If yes, then play the game pretty much as written (with all the usual tweaks that you need just to get it off the ground, like having Monks actually be proficient with their unarmed strikes). This will force them into situations where the quality of character and tactics matters, forcing them to sink or swim. If no, then you have another question to ask yourself:

Do you really give a shit whether they get hit with another TPK or not? If yes, then just do the artifact weapon method of balancing. Seriously, that's what those things are in the game for in the first place. As Frank says, they're Easter egg class features. If, on the other hand, you don't really care whether they suffer massive casualties, then just run the game pretty much as written (with all the usual tweaks that you need just to get it off the ground, like having Monks actually be proficient with their unarmed strikes).

[Prak]

(with all the usual tweaks that you need just to get it off the ground, like having Monks actually be proficient with their unarmed strikes).

"eh? *goes and checks PHB* ....seriously? How the fuck did I never notice that!? What fucking idiot was asleep on the editor's desk?"

[virgil]

They're not truly capable of learning. The above party makeup is them actively trying to be powerful, because their prior characters finally got killed off. Back when I was a player in one the prior campaigns, I was a wizard, and they describe that time like I was the goddamn boogey-man. They speak of my time as a fighter as the time I nearly broke the DM's spirit.

K has already mentioned that published NPCs are crap, and for the last couple of sessions, they've been feeling on top of the world. I've already given them all their DM Pity gear; the rogue his +1 mithral keen holy falchion (if not human, it's a devil), the cleric his gloves of continual spectral hand, the sorcerer his rod of splendor and staff of empowered magic missile (allow his class features to apply), etc

The question is what kind of DM Pity gear to give the monk to both help him feel like a snowflake while at the same time making sure he can do better than a summon monster V.

Come to think of it, I'm going to talk about the Tome monk with the new guy behind the party's back. They'll just have to live with it if I actually succeed in convincing the guy.

[virgil]

(with all the usual tweaks that you need just to get it off the ground, like having Monks actually be proficient with their unarmed strikes).

"eh? *goes and checks PHB* ....seriously? How the fuck did I never notice that!? What fucking idiot was asleep on the editor's desk?"

They indirectly fixed that in Pathfinder. In the equipment section, in section for describing the differences between simple and martial and exotic, it says that all characters are proficient with unarmed strikes (they still provoke, which the feat is for).

[Maxus]

Honestly, I wouldn't rock the boat. You seem to have to live with these guys, judging by how many games you've played with them.

So I would go the DM pity route. And have it show up as something vaguely cool. Maybe the Monk becomes a Magic Monk by getting caught in a big magic blast when they close a portal.( If they challenge you on it, say you're fooling around with extra benefits to see how they change the game's flow). The Magic Monk should enhancement bonus to his unarmed fighting and maybe a class feature or two (like that monk self-heal, or something, now being able to use it as many times a day as he has Wisdom modifiers)Throw the rest of the players a bone, too, with the same event nailing them and giving them low-key, but nifty power. And feed him abilities like Collision (+5 damage will help out) and whatever else.

Hm. Set the monk up to be the one to close the portal or whatever. If the group protests, say you're getting a feel for the new guy, by putting him on the spot. That way, the character gets hit with the brunt of the blast, you can more readily justify him getting a few other things.

[Maxus]

(with all the usual tweaks that you need just to get it off the ground, like having Monks actually be proficient with their unarmed strikes).

"eh? *goes and checks PHB* ....seriously? How the fuck did I never notice that!? What fucking idiot was asleep on the editor's desk?"

I apologize for the thread sidetrack, but I just gotta hear the details on this one. Even if it is through a PM.

[NineInchNall]

Unarmed Strikes are simple weapons. Monks don't get proficiency with simple weapons. Ergo, Monks don't get proficiency with Unarmed Strikes.

It's sad and more than a little funny, but there it is.