Let's be frank about 3E's variety about classes.

[Lago PARANOIA]

In low-level 3E (1-5) you did not have a lot of differences between classes, especially if you weren't a caster.

These are your basic choices.

- Grappler loaded with a bunch of potions of Enlarge Person.
- 3.5E only: Tripstar loaded with a bunch of potions of Enlarge Person.
- TWFing rogue who got all tricksy and shit.
- Vanilla melee damage sponge.
- Fighter archer before the cleric and rogue pulls way ahead of you.
- Mounted character who attacks with Ride-By Attack (ignoring stealth errata), Power Attack, and some charge multipliers.
- Animal companion whoremonger, usually a leopard or ape or some shit.
- Spring Attack monkey while Spring Attack was still good.
- 3.0E only: If you were a Monk 2 (with the OA variant) / Ranger 1 / Fighter 2 then you could kick quite a bit of ass with the Whirlwind Attack chain.
- Spiked Chain Zone of Control fighter.

While that's still quite a bit more archetypes at low level than 4E, the fact is that you're still spamming the same tactic to hell and back. The fun, such as it was, usually came in when you were able to combine the character archetypes, but really, it's still pretty narrow.

[erik]

Also,
Acid flask rogue.
Marshal/Warchanter (some okay buffs, and can combine nicely with tripstar or others)

Um, and how is this narrow? That's a friggin lot of choices.

[edit: forgot Warchanter doesn't shine in levels 1-5)

[Psychic Robot]

The reason that it's considered narrow is because of how shitty the options are. Allow me to explain:

- Grappler loaded with a bunch of potions of Enlarge Person.
- 3.5E only: Tripstar loaded with a bunch of potions of Enlarge Person.

Relies on magic items and one-trick-pony-ism. (OTP for short.)

- TWFing rogue who got all tricksy and shit.

Must dual-wield weapons. You suck unless you're stabbing twice per round.

- Vanilla melee damage sponge.

Uninteresting.

- Fighter archer before the cleric and rogue pulls way ahead of you.

A legitimate option.

- Mounted character who attacks with Ride-By Attack (ignoring stealth errata), Power Attack, and some charge multipliers.

OTP.

- Animal companion whoremonger, usually a leopard or ape or some shit.

Relies on another doing the work for you, and you need a specific animal to make it work. Ranger with a hawk? Hahah, no, you need a monkey wearing chainmail.

- Spring Attack monkey while Spring Attack was still good.

OTP, and it goes out of style really fast.

- 3.0E only: If you were a Monk 2 (with the OA variant) / Ranger 1 / Fighter 2 then you could kick quite a bit of ass with the Whirlwind Attack chain.

Multiclassing cheese.

- Spiked Chain Zone of Control fighter.

More cheese with a stupid weapon.

Acid flask rogue.

Doesn't actually exist in real games. Also, OTP.

Marshal

Marshal is meh tier and in a splatbook.


So, yeah, you get screwed as a non-caster because you can't do nice things. Want to be a sword-and-board fighter? Fuck right off. Monsters are still going to rape your face while you do shitty damage.

[Mask_De_H]

Yeah, and?

Was this ever put in doubt Lago? I mean, it doesn't really matter what you do at level 1-2 thanks to Rocket Launcher Tag; the fact that life is cheap is what makes things closer together, not any sort of well fleshed out set of options.

[erik]

Multiquoting is too hard for me. My main thought is that those tricks aren't bad in themselves, the dilemma is that it is really friggin hard for a non-caster to pull in the numbers to actually use those tricks successfully against monsters of their level.

The OTP accusation fails once you can do two of those things... which most melee characters can. If you have a high trip rating, then you usually have a high strength. So you can do vanilla damage too. Perhaps you can even use a Spiked Chain for zone control. It's rare that any character who excels at one of these options does not have other options available as well.

It isn't that non-casters have a limited set of options... it is that while they have lots of stuff they can do, they aren't nearly as good at it as casters.

Grapple? Many CR-relevant monsters win because they are larger and stronger. And in fact many rape you at your best schtick. The best grappling feats are the ones that let you get out of grapple (or a level 4 spell). *sigh* It's not that grappling is a bad schtick, it's that non-caster guys can't bring the big numbers to compete at their level even casters have a hell of a time making grapplers for that matter. Casters can however entangle and limit movement with ease. Against many opponents at once.

Trip? CR-relevant monsters win because they are larger and stronger. See grapplers. If tripping worked more often for someone focusing on it then it would be a very neat tactic to have in one's bag.

Soak damage? Useless unless you can generate aggro (either by tripping, dealing your own damage, or otherwise being irritating)... and sadly generating aggro as a non-caster is hard as above.

Your tautological argument that TWF is bad because it requires you to TWF aside, PR- TWF isn't horrific. It does come down to a cost issue mostly. TWF is expensive since weapons cost mad money, and 2 weapons costs twice as much. It gets extra bad with more than 2 weapons.

Chargers? Yes it is a OTP, and the solution once again is to get more tricks. It relies upon high strength so you can apply that towards other tricks. Or hell, take a decent strength bow and double as a mounted archer when chairs rear their ugly legs.

I think there are lots of worthwhile combat options... it is just damned hard to make them strong enough to compete with the potence of a caster because non-casters don't have big enough numbers.

[RandomCasualty2]

While that's still quite a bit more archetypes at low level than 4E, the fact is that you're still spamming the same tactic to hell and back. The fun, such as it was, usually came in when you were able to combine the character archetypes, but really, it's still pretty narrow.

Yeah, That's what I never really liked about 3.5 fighters. You felt like one of those newbies in Mortal Kombat who just keeps spamming the sweep or uppercut button regardless of what happens.

Sure you had a ton of shit you could try, but the fact was that you were good at one thing and that was all you really should be doing. if you didn't take improved disarm, don't bother trying to disarm people. It was really pretty disappointing.

[Vebyast]

- Mounted character who attacks with Ride-By Attack (ignoring stealth errata), Power Attack, and some charge multipliers.

OTP.

I see what you did there.

[Murtak]

I thought that at low levels you actually have a lot of variety, especially for non-full-casters. At those levels full attacks do not exist, huge piles of extra damage do not exist, saves do not diverge quite as badly yet and straight damage still works well to kill stuff. Two-weapon-fighters are kind of hard to pull of and shields aren't worth shit, but basically everyone with a high strength stat and two-handed weapon is a threat. That means you are actually free to let your feats and class abilities do something, instead of desperately needing them to deal damage or for prerequisites. Similarly skills do not diverge much, so skill points and attributes are both valuable, even if you do not stack modifier upon modifier. And finally, as a non-caster you can freely mix and match classes.

Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Crusader, Warblade, Samurai (OA) ... pick any two of them, two levels each, and you have a viable character. Granted, some combinations will have you scour sourcebooks for just the right combination of feats, skills, maneuvres and items to pick - but the result is fine. And you certainly don't need to be a one-dimensional gimmick character. You can have self heals, trips, reach, AoOs, grappling, movement prevention, precision damage, ranged damage and combine it with maneuvrability, diplomacy, stealth, knowledge skills or defensive reactions.

Of course just a few levels later it all falls apart. And if you actually plan on going beyond level 5, you will want to qualify for feats and prestige classes early, which means you do not have any flexibility at all - pretty much all of your feats, classes and skills will be spoken for. But levels 1 to 5 are fine, and in my opinion the most varied and balanced part of the game.

[hogarth]

Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Crusader, Warblade, Samurai (OA) ... pick any two of them, two levels each, and you have a viable character.

But the viability of those basically boils down to "bash enemy every round" or "do special move on enemy every round" (slightly less so for semi-casters like the Psychic Warrior or the Bo9S classes).

RandomCasualty2's comparison to mashing the same one or two buttons in Mortal Kombat was very apt, I thought.

[Murtak]

Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Crusader, Warblade, Samurai (OA) ... pick any two of them, two levels each, and you have a viable character.

But the viability of those basically boils down to "bash enemy every round" or "do special move on enemy every round" (slightly less so for semi-casters like the Psychic Warrior or the Bo9S classes).

RandomCasualty2's comparison to mashing the same one or two buttons in Mortal Kombat was very apt, I thought.

Ok, just going from memory: Samurai 2, Crusader 2. You get a healing strike and Thicket of blades and whatever else. Ideally something that makes use of your free action. You have a magic weapon and 3 feats to burn. 2 of them will probably give you something new to do in combat. Bullrushing or tripping or whatever. Put the last feat into something to do with mounts. At this point you can deal damage, impair movement, bullrush, do mounted archery or heal yourself. Out of combat you have full ranks in diplomacy and probably at least one useful other skill.

That is hardly "mash he same button every round".

[Username17]

The problem with the Tripstar and the TWF Rogue is not that there are insufficient different characters to play - Lago's list adequately shows that you could have a different archetype for each player in a game and then play a new game where everyone got different and new archetypes to play - all without ever using a real spellcaster. The problem is that each character is just using their trick over and over again. The archer shoots a bunch of arrows and does big damage. The TWF Rogue stabs a lot with his short swords and does big damage. The Grapplemancer grabs every single opponent and puts them into a leg lock. There is a certain relentless sameness about it. By the time Fighters go obsolete, the character isn't even fun to play anymore.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Crusader, Warblade, Samurai (OA) ... pick any two of them, two levels each, and you have a viable character.

But the viability of those basically boils down to "bash enemy every round" or "do special move on enemy every round" (slightly less so for semi-casters like the Psychic Warrior or the Bo9S classes).

RandomCasualty2's comparison to mashing the same one or two buttons in Mortal Kombat was very apt, I thought.

How is this any different than a mage nuking the bad guys every combat?

Yes, there are a lot of options for spellcasters, but given a standard set of books to mine for spells, you're going to see the same spell lists pretty frequently.

[Datawolf]

Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Crusader, Warblade, Samurai (OA) ... pick any two of them, two levels each, and you have a viable character.

But the viability of those basically boils down to "bash enemy every round" or "do special move on enemy every round" (slightly less so for semi-casters like the Psychic Warrior or the Bo9S classes).

RandomCasualty2's comparison to mashing the same one or two buttons in Mortal Kombat was very apt, I thought.

How is this any different than a mage nuking the bad guys every combat?

Yes, there are a lot of options for spellcasters, but given a standard set of books to mine for spells, you're going to see the same spell lists pretty frequently.

Interesting point. Especially considering that most of the wizard/cleric spell selection threads I've seen tend to recommend the same spells or variations of those spells.

[Koumei]

The Grapplemancer grabs every single opponent and puts them into a leg lock. There is a certain relentless sameness about it. By the time Fighters go obsolete, the character isn't even fun to play anymore.

-Username17

Assuming you're talking about the Elf Wizard, and not some actual fighter-ish thing that grapples and probably doesn't even exist, I feel the Grapplemancer stays good right up until all enemies have Immunity to Grapple (incorporeal/ethereal/FoM/swarm). And even then, they can change their spell selection next morning and be something else.

But until that point, sure, what they do is grab an enemy, tombstone them and then lock in THE CRIPPLER CROSSFACE, THE CRIPPLER CROSSFACE! IT'S ALL OVER, RING THE DAMN BELL! however they do it by casting a variety of weird and wonderful spells. As such, they start by going "MY NAME (body) IS HUGE (large)" and grabbing someone. While on fire. Then they get to be acid-coated, with a strength-boost. Then they get to do shit like growing tentacles and extra arms, stunning/scaring people with their grapples, getting covered in spikes, fusing the new arms together for massive strength boosts, getting a mind flayer head, turning into Steelix...

The end of the routine is the same: grab, chokeslam, sharpshooter. However the routine that leads up to it can be switched around a lot, and the actual spells you choose to let off (let's face it: you're not casting all of these before every single grapple. The fight will be over before you finish) can make an actual difference. Well until you get polymorph and every fight becomes "Turn into Steelix, bite, grab, swallow, FIRE DAMAGE"

[hogarth]

How is this any different than a mage nuking the bad guys every combat?

Presumably he doesn't have to. Sometimes he casts Color Spray, and sometimes he casts Charm Person, and sometimes he casts Enlarge Person and sometimes he casts Unseen Servant. Those are four completely different things a wizard can do (combat "nuking", out-of-combat "nuking", buffing, and creating minions), and that's just at level 1.

[Zinegata]

The problem is that while different viable options exist, you generally have only enough feats to be "good" at one of the options.

And when I say "good", I mean that "It works consistently against most enemies". If you don't get the trip feats, you can still trip, but it won't be good enough that you'd want to do it every round.

So, either make it easier to get different viable options, or make all options viable.

[Murtak]

But until that point, sure, what they do is grab an enemy, tombstone them and then lock in THE CRIPPLER CROSSFACE, THE CRIPPLER CROSSFACE! IT'S ALL OVER, RING THE DAMN BELL! however they do it by casting a variety of weird and wonderful spells. As such, they start by going "MY NAME (body) IS HUGE (large)" and grabbing someone. While on fire. Then they get to be acid-coated, with a strength-boost. Then they get to do shit like growing tentacles and extra arms, stunning/scaring people with their grapples, getting covered in spikes, fusing the new arms together for massive strength boosts, getting a mind flayer head, turning into Steelix...

That is not variety, that is collecting every stackable bonus, just like a fighter collecting Jotunbrut, Wolf Berserker and the Tripping enchantment. Variety is actually doing something different against different opponents. What you are describing is flavor text.

[ubernoob]

But until that point, sure, what they do is grab an enemy, tombstone them and then lock in THE CRIPPLER CROSSFACE, THE CRIPPLER CROSSFACE! IT'S ALL OVER, RING THE DAMN BELL! however they do it by casting a variety of weird and wonderful spells. As such, they start by going "MY NAME (body) IS HUGE (large)" and grabbing someone. While on fire. Then they get to be acid-coated, with a strength-boost. Then they get to do shit like growing tentacles and extra arms, stunning/scaring people with their grapples, getting covered in spikes, fusing the new arms together for massive strength boosts, getting a mind flayer head, turning into Steelix...

That is not variety, that is collecting every stackable bonus, just like a fighter collecting Jotunbrut, Wolf Berserker and the Tripping enchantment. Variety is actually doing something different against different opponents. What you are describing is flavor text.

I disagree. The last time I played a grapple wizard (about a month back), I was actually pretty engaged because I had to think pretty carefully about what buffs I was going to toss down and in what order and if an additional buff was worth waiting one more round. My *typical* routine was to enlarge person, run in to threaten AoOs, then balor nimbus OR fist of stone and then walk next to the BBEG, but there were a few times I just ran in with my whole "I'm an elf wizard with an octopus familiar for +6 to grapple and have improved grapple and I'm going to glitterdust you now"

So I think the point she's trying to make (grapple wizards keep you engaged) is pretty true.

[Murtak]

The problem is that while different viable options exist, you generally have only enough feats to be "good" at one of the options.

And when I say "good", I mean that "It works consistently against most enemies". If you don't get the trip feats, you can still trip, but it won't be good enough that you'd want to do it every round.

So, either make it easier to get different viable options, or make all options viable.

This is true at higher levels, but at levels 1-5 (which is what this thread is about), you do not need to collect all the bullshit bonuses yet. You can get Improved Trip and just be strong and that will be enough to trip a significant percentage of your opponents reliably. Rogues can get by without dual wielding, because getting shot in the back for 3d6+3 actually hurts some opponents. Putting points into hide and sneak is useful even without getting bullshit bonuses because your opponents do not have arbitrary +20 bonuses to spot yet.

I just pulled out a couple of random monsters for a level 4 party: Otyugh, Babau, Blink Dog, Sea Hag and Janni.

At level 4, if you decide you want to be able to trip or grapple or whatever you can probably invest a feat and perhaps a little cash and get a +4 bonus to your new shtick, for a total of +12ish (4 feat, 4 BAB, 4 Strength score). Lets have a look.
Grapple: You can grapple anything on that list except the babau. Of course the babau is a challenge for the entire party, so that is fine. And of course the blink dogs are just going to dimension door away. But you can totally grapple the designated caster and melee fighter (unless he enlarges first) and weirdly, the designated grappler.
Trip: Works fine against the entire list except the babau.

Similarly assuming you can grab a skill as a class skill you should be able to it to a modifier of +8ish, +12ish if you decide to invest a feat or a little cash. That would give you a fair shot of spotting the otyugh or hag, reaching a favorable agreement with the janni or hide from the babau.


As far as I can tell, diversifying actually works at low levels. You can invest a sizable but by no means major part of your feats/levels/cash into a new shtick and actually expect to successfully use it against your opponents.


Edit: Link tags

[Murtak]

So I think the point she's trying to make (grapple wizards keep you engaged) is pretty true.

What Koumei is describing though is flavor text. She is specifically saying grapplemancers have variety because of [insert special effect here]. If Jotunbrut turned you into a red-skinned demon, Wolf Berserker made you foam at the mouth and Improved Trip would cause your weapon to drip vile greenish fluids you would have exactly the same amount of "variety". And if you added a maneuver or a tactical feat that delayed your actual shtick for a round but gave you some bonus you would have the exact same "variety" that you describe.

Now, actually getting to cast Glitterdust, that is variety. And casters certainly excel at that. But special effects and buff order do not equal variety - or if they do, so does the order of actions of your martial character, the decision when to take your attack(s) of opportunity and what maneuver to execute.

[Koumei]

It's not just flavour, it's the extra riders and the decisions you make: "do I choke them out and set them on fire, choke them out and scare them, or choke them out and also Stunlock them?" is a valid issue. Now if you get to a point where you can have these on all the time, without spending combat time buffing, then yes, at that point it does actually become less interesting because you do the same thing every fight. But until this hypothetical point, you have real decisions to make, that do real different things.

[Murtak]

It's not just flavour, it's the extra riders and the decisions you make: "do I choke them out and set them on fire, choke them out and scare them, or choke them out and also Stunlock them?" is a valid issue.

Setting them on fire is just extra damage. Scaring them is either useless or equivalent to stunning, especially if you are grappling them at the same time. So basically your big decision is whether to do extra damage or add even more helplessness. That is a decision, yes. About on par with the decision whether to blow your rage on this fight or not, or which of your maneuvers to use.

But is not similar to deciding whether to cast Briarweb, Hold Person or Protection from Evil or whether to use mounted archery or tripping for this fight. Not even close.

[RobbyPants]

How is this any different than a mage nuking the bad guys every combat?

Yes, there are a lot of options for spellcasters, but given a standard set of books to mine for spells, you're going to see the same spell lists pretty frequently.

It's similar, but not as bad. The more levels you gain, the more tricks you gain. So while a lot of casters have similar spell selections of win spells, they still have different options to use each encounter. Also, even with a good selection of win spells each level, most casters will mix up their lists a bit so they remain versatile. It's not like I've ever seen someone's spells for the day like:

Level 1: Color Spray x5
Level 2: Glitterdust x4
Level 3: Stinking Cloude x3
Level 4: EBT x2

Even that ridiculously narrow selection offers more versatility than a non-caster.

[spasheridan]

There's a big difference between the tripmaster fighter and the grapplemancer wizard.

Every day the tripmaster wakes up and picks up his spiked chain. He is prepped for the day and he will trip anything he encounters.

When the grapplemancer wizard wakes up he decides between ultimate grapplemancer spells or does he tack on some utilities - disguise self because we're sneaking in some where, charm person for some interogation, levitate to deal with the cliff we camped next to, unseen servant to tunnel the next 30 feet into the vault... knock because the thief is still insance.

That's where the tripmaster is boring and the grapplemancer isn't.

[Zinegata]

This is true at higher levels, but at levels 1-5 (which is what this thread is about), you do not need to collect all the bullshit bonuses yet.

If the game ends at level 5, then yes diversifying is more viable. This is correct.

The problem is, if the game goes beyond level 5 then you need to start focusing on your schtick right from the start or else you'll get left behind later on. In fact you'll want to have your Trip/Snipe/Dual-Wield Sneak Attack maxed out as soon as possible, as it makes you viable compared to casters until they get their nukes.

Even then, I would personally still prefer to have a really high bonus for one highly effective schtick even at low levels, than to be sorta good for two different ones even at low levels.

For instance... Yes, 3d6 sneak attack hurts on its own. But at low levels the main reason to dual wield is to roll twice against an enemy, which greatly increases the chance you'll land at least one hit that will inflict sneak attack damage.