Same-Game Testing: Rogue v. Factotum

[For Valor]

So... apparently JaronK's tier system is t3h wrong.

Mister Sinister said (concerning the Factotum) that JaronK believes it's "like the rogue, but better". Now, I've never played a Factotum before, or an archivist or artificer, but I kind of blindly trusted JaronK. According to you guys, the rogue should win 50% of combats it participates in, while JaronK puts it somewhere lower... it seems like 40% to me.

So, since I can't do the SGT worth shit, this post is a request to see if there's anyone out there who can show me how the rogue performs at 50/50 level, and how the factotum doesn't?

[ubernoob]

Here's the thing. A rogue has moderate to good stealth. And high burst damage through flasks+sneak attack.

A factotum has... nothing.

Seriously, nothing. It gets some shitty SLAs a couple times per days and less skill points than a rogue and no bonus damage at all...

Oh, I remember what it does. It adds int to initiative. The rest of the class is 'rogue, but worse'.

No, I'm not going to run a SGT because the class doesn't fucking DO anything. At all.

[Maxus]

It's sort of on the grounds that clerics are a better class than wizards.

As in, they get some advantage to their casting that wizards don't (cast in armor, know whole spell list), better saves, better HP, and better weapons, and better BAB.

The wizard has a line on more of the crazy power-loops and I-win buttons, but the Cleric has more solid mechanics.

Likewise, the Rogue actually gets some usable class features that may be relied to be present (sneak attack, at the very least) and will be accepted by most DMs, and doesn't require some min-max shenanigans to be good.

[Caedrus]

The totality of my experience with the Factotum is using it for one level dips. It's not bad for that

[CatharzGodfoot]

IIRC, a high-level factotum can pull out some crazy tricks once per day. It's basically like a wizard, but with slightly less staying power and slightly worse options.

[ubernoob]

IIRC, a high-level factotum can pull out some crazy tricks once per day. It's basically like a wizard, but with slightly less staying power and slightly worse options.

Read the class again. You are 100% wrong. At level 20, it gets a single fucking eighth level spell per day. And a handful of seventh level spells. Watch me care that your entire class is being a sorcerer four levels lower, but worse.

[Danchild]

The rogues strengths are skills. They have some combat strength granted by class features. They also have splat support and can trade out the damage of sneak attack for some no save effects. Some of these effects are decent. Unfortunately, constructs, undead, elementals, oozes and plants ignore sneak attack most of the time. There are ways around that though

Factotums strength is in skills and versatility. Any class skills. This can be an advantage in certain types of games. I am not going to claim that picking up UMD and the psionic equivelant is a strength. Face it, a real caster does it better. Some of their abilities are fairly underwhelming, due more to the fact that they rely on Inpiration points. However, all of their abilities are available so long as they have these IP's remaining.

JaronK's Tier list is rated on versatility. The factotum looks more versatile than the rogue on paper, but I have not actually played one. I could just be suffering from Monk Syndrome.

[koz]

JaronK's Tier list is rated on bullshit. The factotum looks more versatile than the rogue on paper, but in practice sucks a barrel of cocks. I am suffering from Monk Syndrome.

Corrected that for you. Seriously.

The factotum is not a versatile class in the same way that a bard isn't a versatile class - it sucks at everything. If you consider that versatility, you're pretty mistaken.

You want a versatile class? The cleric. In all seriousness, the cleric is versatile because it really can do anything just by preparing different spells each day. Nothing the factotum can ever pull even comes close.

As far as JaronK's list goes, it's not based on anything. If it was rated on versatility, the beguiler would be rated above the wizard, but it's actually not - it's rated below it. Plus, JaronK's list is basically based on 'how many ways can this class break the game'. This is a completely stupid piece of logic, as it means precisely nothing. Firstly because being able to break the game isn't class-dependent, as even a commoner can use a candle of invocation. Secondly, once you can break the game with one method, the rest don't matter at all, since the game is already broken.

Stop trying to find logic in that piece of drivel that he has written and defends like his life depended on it with his complete lack of understanding, and start looking at tiering systems that actually make fucking sense.

Edit: ForValor, you appear to have misquoted me there.

[Danchild]

Corrected that for you. Seriously.

You fucking malignant pollop. The OP was asking for a comparison for Rogues and Factotum. Not rogue and cleric you fucking tard. Go shit your bias elsewhere.

[ubernoob]

Corrected that for you. Seriously.

You fucking malignant pollop. The OP was asking for a comparison for Rogues and Factotum. Not rogue and cleric you fucking tard. Go shit your bias elsewhere.

Yo brah, you've never even played a factotum. You're basing your opinion 100% on what some other guy on the internet has said. Now, that wouldn't be a problem except that said individual is clinically retarded.

[Danchild]

I'm basing my opinion on what I read in the book. I have never wasted my time with a rogue either, brah

More fucking useful than some threadshitting wank about clerics and magical items.

[ubernoob]

I'm basing my opinion on what I read in the book. I have never wasted my time with a rogue either, brah

More fucking useful than some threadshitting wank about clerics and magical items.

Brah, chill out. I didn't rape your dog. I just told you you're wrong.

Edit: To be clear, you've never playtested EITHER class apparently, so you should sit down and listen to people that have (such as myself).

[Danchild]

I'm basing my opinion on what I read in the book. I have never wasted my time with a rogue either, brah

More fucking useful than some threadshitting wank about clerics and magical items.

Brah, chill out. I didn't rape your dog. I just told you you're wrong.

Edit: To be clear, you've never playtested EITHER class apparently, so you should sit down and listen to people that have (such as myself).

Seriously. Go fuck yourself you condescending twat.

Base class features

Rogue: Built around dealing damage and avoiding damage. It fails at both. Skill use.

Factotum: Built around skill use. Gains fucking terrible minor spellcasting and access to minor situational boni. Includes turning...Which is terrible, but more than the rogue gets. Can repeat anything the rogue can do with skills and more.

The fact that the factotum gains access to mid-high level spells makes it more versatile than a rogue. Citation: Spell Compendium.

They are both still shit. Factotum smells marginally better.

I do not need to waste my time playing either to figure that out.

[ubernoob]

I'm basing my opinion on what I read in the book. I have never wasted my time with a rogue either, brah

More fucking useful than some threadshitting wank about clerics and magical items.

Brah, chill out. I didn't rape your dog. I just told you you're wrong.

Edit: To be clear, you've never playtested EITHER class apparently, so you should sit down and listen to people that have (such as myself).

Seriously. Go fuck yourself you condescending twat.

Base class features

Rogue: Built around dealing damage and avoiding damage. It fails at both. Skill use.

Factotum: Built around skill use. Gains fucking terrible minor spellcasting and access to minor situational boni. Includes turning...Which is terrible, but more than the rogue gets. Can repeat anything the rogue can do with skills and more.

The fact that the factotum gains access to mid-high level spells makes it more versatile than a rogue. Citation: Spell Compendium.

They are both still shit. Factotum smells marginally better.

I do not need to waste my time playing either to figure that out.

Yeah, factotum is a shit class. I know this because I've actually playtested it. Rogue is not because rogue can actually do one thing well: damage.

Flasks+TWF+Rapidshot. Carry around a wand of gravestrike, golemstrike, and vinestrike. Now only elementals and oozes are immune to sneak attack. Everything else in the monster manual fucking dies because you made a bunch of touch attacks at it.

Fuck you. Flask rogue is common fucking knowledge.

[Psychic Robot]

Fuck you. Flask rogue is common fucking knowledge.

It's really not. And I'm pretty sure that it never crops up in real games, and I'm doubly sure that most DMs would nerf it on the spot. And, yes, I'm going to bring up the fact that blink is such a poorly-written spell to say that I don't agree with you interpretation of it, and I think that it gives your own attacks a 20% miss chance.

Let the shitstorm commence.

[Danchild]

Flasks+TWF+Rapidshot. Carry around a wand of gravestrike, golemstrike, and vinestrike. Now only elementals and oozes are immune to sneak attack. Everything else in the monster manual fucking dies because you made a bunch of touch attacks at it.

Fuck you. Flask rogue is common fucking knowledge.

You disingenous shill. I have heard of the flask rogue. It is the best option for a shitty fucking class. It does not change the fact it is a shitty fucking class.

Without the magical items that another fucking class provides and a steady stream of revenue it fails. Good luck getting to the level where you can reliably spam wand use in an efficient manner.

The Factotum will be reliably casting Planar Binding before that happens.

[Juton]

Flasks+TWF+Rapidshot. Carry around a wand of gravestrike, golemstrike, and vinestrike. Now only elementals and oozes are immune to sneak attack. Everything else in the monster manual fucking dies because you made a bunch of touch attacks at it.

Fuck you. Flask rogue is common fucking knowledge.

That is such a bullshit TO cop-out. Even if you could find a game that would let you use it (good fucking luck) you are going to burn through all your WBL trying to keep stocked. Good luck against anything concealment, invisibility or a higher initiative then you.

[Koumei]

I've played a Flasked Avenger before. It was low level, so I had no wands yet, but you know what? Even against Undead and shit, 3 flasks per round is still 3 dice of damage. Constant Blink and shit were not necessary - I tended to go first, and if not, allies loved spells like Entangle, Colour Spray and Grease.

You can totally do a Flasked Avenger just on the Flasks thing. Wands of ___Strike are a good idea ASAP, and then you can look at getting advanced flasks (like those in Savage Species) or some variety of Invisibility or whatever later on.

Except as a Rogue you can instead focus on wand/scroll use to ignore your Sneak Attack and just say "Look at me, I'm a coin-operated Sorcerer!" Then when you get a Candle, if the DM feels Infinite Wishes Are Not Happening (this is the big one - I have never just assumed this will work. I mention the whole thing to a DM, and they say "No, that's effort. Wealth = Power as normal. A dragon sleeps on a mountain of 1,000 GP still, LALALA") you say "Look at me, my UMD made me a Cleric of higher level than the party Cleric!"

All I've seen anyone successfully do with a Factotum? Use the "Add level to skill" thing for hitting that DC 80 Escape Artist check to crawl up an enemy's ass.

[Kaelik]

No, you really aren't using up wealth, Juton/Danchild.

There are some legitimate problems with Flask rogues, such as that blink causes people to throw shit fits, and that at levels below "ring of blink" getting SA is either hard except on the first round because of how shitty the hiding rules are, or requires another character to give it to you.

But using up wealth is not a problem. Wands of Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike cause 750gp and last your entire fucking life. You can level like eight times on a single set. And each fight costs you, assuming you don't have access to a Wizard in your party, 150-300gp, at absolute maximum, if fighting acid immune enemies. You get more than that in rewards each fight by a substantial margin, and that's worse case. In practice, you can just use Craft alchemy and acid flasks to do the same thing for 60gp.

[Murtak]

Not to mention that wealth by level means that any consumables you use up just give you additional treasure in future encounters. Either you can accumulate wealth, in which case flasks are cheap enough not to worry about, or you are on a budget which refreshes at least every level, in which case your consumables replenish.

[Juton]

Not to mention that wealth by level means that any consumables you use up just give you additional treasure in future encounters. Either you can accumulate wealth, in which case flasks are cheap enough not to worry about, or you are on a budget which refreshes at least every level, in which case your consumables replenish.

What the fuck is this logic? So could a Fighter (or to keep it topical a Factotum) max his UMD, buy and use a shit-ton of scrolls and expect the DM to give them extra loot to cover their expenses? Do you actually demand your DM alter an adventure to give you more money if you burn through items like it's going out of style?

If WBL worked like this (hint: it doesn't) then why are we even talking about about a flask rogue when scroll of glitterdust+sneak attack works so well?

[Korwin]

WBL aside.

How do you get that a scroll of Glitterdust works well?
It sounds more of a way to be useless in combat (DC 11).

[Juton]

Maybe my example wasn't the best, a scroll of glitterdust would have a DC 13 (10+1 for minimum int+2 for level). But if you could abuse WBL there are better magic items than flasks of acid.

[Kaelik]

Not to mention that wealth by level means that any consumables you use up just give you additional treasure in future encounters. Either you can accumulate wealth, in which case flasks are cheap enough not to worry about, or you are on a budget which refreshes at least every level, in which case your consumables replenish.

What the fuck is this logic? So could a Fighter (or to keep it topical a Factotum) max his UMD, buy and use a shit-ton of scrolls and expect the DM to give them extra loot to cover their expenses? Do you actually demand your DM alter an adventure to give you more money if you burn through items like it's going out of style?

If WBL worked like this (hint: it doesn't) then why are we even talking about about a flask rogue when scroll of glitterdust+sneak attack works so well?

1) Scrolls of Glitterdust suck, DC 13.
2) SA with what?
3) Will you address the point that the rogue is not using very much money at all, like 60gp for a fight that gets you several hundred.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, factotum is a shit class. I know this because I've actually playtested it. Rogue is not because rogue can actually do one thing well: damage.

Flasks+TWF+Rapidshot. Carry around a wand of gravestrike, golemstrike, and vinestrike. Now only elementals and oozes are immune to sneak attack. Everything else in the monster manual fucking dies because you made a bunch of touch attacks at it.

Fuck you. Flask rogue is common fucking knowledge.

Is a Factorum using Iajutsu Focus and a quickrazor considered more TO than a rogue using flasks and upping his number of attacks considerably? I mean that as a serious (albeit subjective) question. One solid advantage in the flask rogue's favor is it can be pulled off with just Core books.

That being said, if the DM doesn't seriously nerf UMD, it looks like it's much easier to roll a competent rogue than a competent factorum. Every factorum build I've ever seen written always relies on a skill from a themed 3.0 book, a feat from Dragon Mag, and an exotic racial weapon. If nothing else, that likely fails at many DM's too-many-obscure-sources test.