Stay Classy Paizo.

[K]

So I posted a few times on Paizo's messageboard in someone's thread about Fighters not being fixed by Paizo and not only was the thread locked by Jason B., but a perfectly innocent message about how Fighters need to be powered-up in a different thread was deleted several hours after I posted it.

Can anyone explain to me why pointing out that Fighters blow is resisted so fiercely that even designers take time out of their day to come in to smack you with their dicks?

[Blasted]

Because fighers exist only to be the bitches of mages and anything else would be rollplaying !!!11

[Prak]

gamers tend to grow up on the fantasy of being essentially a d&d fighter. You know, wandering the land, slaying dragons with your mighty sword, that kind of thing. When someone points out that "fighters blow," the dumb gamers think you are maligning their formative daydreams.

[TOZ]

Ah, that thread. How hilarious it was.

[Juton]

I can't speak for Buhlman since I haven't read the thread, but for the majority of Pathfinder players the Fighter works. Full attacking every round is a valid strategy for them. So when they hear the Fighter is weak they know different from their experience.

Also I think Fighter/Monk needs to be fixed is a pretty frequently occurring topic on those boards, to the point that people don't want to talk about it anymore.

[Username17]

People fight vociferously against the idea that classes are bad. Even if they are bad. Even if they are very bad. Remember Why Monks? Yeah, it's kind of like that.

But of course it's beyond that with Jason and you. Weirdly enough, you and I have opinions that are regarded as "important," so if we make a post that calls into question any particular decision Jason made, he regards it as an attack on him personally.

So to recap: if you say that one of the main classes is bad, people will think it's a personal attack against them. If you personally say that one of the main classes in Jason's material is bad, he will take it as a personal attack against him.

-Username17

[hogarth]

Can anyone explain to me why pointing out that Fighters blow is resisted so fiercely that even designers take time out of their day to come in to smack you with their dicks?

Because it's tedious and repetitive to state the obvious over and over again, especially when it seems calculated to stir up the ignorant chumps who are happy with their delusions?

I haven't looked at that particular thread (I've read enough "Fighters suck, wizards rule LOL" threads for a lifetime, thanks), so I can't say for sure that is what's going on in this case, though.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Because it's tedious and repetitive to state the obvious over and over again, especially when it seems calculated to stir up the ignorant chumps who are happy with their delusions?

Are you telling me that if someone acknowledges there's a problem but messes up fixing it, there's a limit on how many times you can tell them that they still jacked it up before it becomes tedious and shit-stirring? I mean, damn, this isn't just some random forum on the Internet, presumably K posted this in a forum designed to fix 3E balance issues.

You know, this is the kind of attitude that got us shitty-ass skill challenge revisions and the game developers just giving the fuck up on rituals in 4E.

[Leress]

I read the thread it pretty much turn in the same old wizard vs fighter, where people couldn't decide on how to make a test to see who would come out on top. Also people were making contradictory statements. People wanted to set up a gauntlet, some a character vs character, some talk about pathfinder, some 3.5 it was just a damn mess. I pretty much knew that it was just going to turn out like it was 5 goddamn years with the same type arguments and no actual testing (I mean making multiple test not just one).

[PoliteNewb]

Are you telling me that if someone acknowledges there's a problem but messes up fixing it, there's a limit on how many times you can tell them that they still jacked it up before it becomes tedious and shit-stirring?

Yes. After you've said something, no matter how enlightening or truthful it may be, eleventy gazillion times, it becomes tedious. If you say it to people who have made it clear they don't care and have no intention of addressing your points, that's pretty much the definition of shit-stirring.

[Kaelik]

Remember Why Monks? Yeah, it's kind of like that.

Man, that Maj chick is a fucking retard. She is literally the dumbest person I have ever seen ever. Good thing I don't know anyone that retarded, or I'd have to dedicate my life to making them miserable.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Can anyone explain to me why pointing out that Fighters blow is resisted so fiercely that even designers take time out of their day to come in to smack you with their dicks?

Because it's tedious and repetitive to state the obvious over and over again, especially when it seems calculated to stir up the ignorant chumps who are happy with their delusions?

And yet - despite many threads on message boards everywhere filled with constructive discussion of why Fighters suck and what needs to be done to improve them - Fighters still suck rancid hobo sacks. There's a LOT of people trafficking in "willful ignorance" out there - the Pazilis just happen to be the most blatant offenders because they actually had the power to do something about it and just let the status quo ride.

[Zinegata]

Remember Why Monks? Yeah, it's kind of like that.

Man, that Maj chick is a fucking retard. She is literally the dumbest person I have ever seen ever. Good thing I don't know anyone that retarded, or I'd have to dedicate my life to making them miserable.

To be perfectly honest, I think Maj completely owned Frank in that thread. For a non min-maxer her defense of Monks vs Fighters was pretty brillant, and Frank had to resort to saying "But the Monk is gonna get owned by casters!" (debunked, because the original post was comparing Monk vs Fighter), and "Monks get a special item to maintain their power level!" (doubly debunked, because we know that Fighters also need an artifact sword to remain competitive).

So, really, when Den members start complaining they're being prosecuted - even if it's Frank or K - I start getting skeptical.

[Kaelik]

To be perfectly honest, I think Maj completely owned Frank in that thread. For a non min-maxer her defense of Monks vs Fighters was pretty brillant

While I disagree with your judgment of a) her defending the monk well, b) complete owning.

I want to be clear that I fucking hate you s fucking much, because you just ruined my chance to talk shit about Maj until someone played it straight instead of fucking joke bombing me like an asshole.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Zinegata, I know you harbor secret fantasies of being (or fantasizing through proxy) of being the next 'Frank Killer', but seriously, read the thread again because your wishful thinking is clouding your judgment. I like Maj and all but every single argument she (and others) presented in that thread was debunked.

The best showing she made was in the character build comparison. And even that was pretty sad. She had to resort to motherfucking Singh Rager. That's not an owning. That's like taking levels in Spelldancer or Ur-Priest to 'prove' that bards can keep up at high levels. I mean, shit, her example build was a pounce-abusing Singh Rager and Frank's was a spirited charger who didn't have Cavalier or Singh Rager levels.

Frank mentioned the spellcasting thing because Maj's build centered around stacking the monk-exclusive Flying Kick (big deal, the non-monks bust out with Rhino Armor if they care that much) + Leaping Sandals--a STR-based damage bonus. It's a pretty big damage bonus, but nothing from what you couldn't get through levels and shit. Regardless, the DRUID came up in the first place because trying to get unarmed die upgrades through the monk just does not keep up compared to a polymorphing, ESPECIALLY if you're a limited to a single attack.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Yes. After you've said something, no matter how enlightening or truthful it may be, eleventy gazillion times, it becomes tedious. If you say it to people who have made it clear they don't care and have no intention of addressing your points, that's pretty much the definition of shit-stirring.

Lemme tell you something, Player1. This ain't about you, personally, but more about the world in general.

People see somethin' they don't wanna see, and for whatever reason, they pretend they don't see nothin'. People see a problem they don't wanna deal with, and they pretend they're too busy to be bothered.

This... sort of tendency... is spreadin' like a disease. It's real tragic to say, but that's the world we live in.

Don't that seem sorta... all messed up to you? I mean, closin' your eyes, hopin' that all the bad stuff is just gonna go away and not bother you no more?

That's... that's what babies do. You hearin' me? Infants.

[PoliteNewb]

Yes. After you've said something, no matter how enlightening or truthful it may be, eleventy gazillion times, it becomes tedious. If you say it to people who have made it clear they don't care and have no intention of addressing your points, that's pretty much the definition of shit-stirring.

Lemme tell you something, Player1. This ain't about you, personally, but more about the world in general.

People see somethin' they don't wanna see, and for whatever reason, they pretend they don't see nothin'. People see a problem they don't wanna deal with, and they pretend they're too busy to be bothered.

This... sort of tendency... is spreadin' like a disease. It's real tragic to say, but that's the world we live in.

Don't that seem sorta... all messed up to you? I mean, closin' your eyes, hopin' that all the bad stuff is just gonna go away and not bother you no more?

That's... that's what babies do. You hearin' me? Infants.

When did I ever say it was a desirable trait, or a mature one, or one that I personally subscribed to?

Do you spend your day standing in front of a baby haranguing it on why it shouldn't shit in it's pants? Wouldn't that be about the most tedious thing ever?

EDIT: now imagine I have to stand there and listen to you lecture the baby. That's why I said what I said. You are seriously wasting your breath.

[Zinegata]

Zinegata, I know you harbor secret fantasies of being (or fantasizing through proxy) of being the next 'Frank Killer', but seriously, read the thread again because your wishful thinking is clouding your judgment. I like Maj and all but every single argument she (and others) presented in that thread was debunked.

Secret fantasies?

I thought I made it clear in the past that I believe that Frank and K are both has-been designers who likes repeating arguments to look good even though they've been conceded like four posts ago? And that they only occasionally have new and good points?

That being said, it was really more to pop Kaelik's balloon than anything else, because I would have made my comment the moment Frank posted the link otherwise.

The best showing she made was in the character build comparison. And even that was pretty sad. She had to resort to motherfucking Singh Rager. That's not an owning. That's like taking levels in Spelldancer or Ur-Priest to 'prove' that bards can keep up at high levels. I mean, shit, her example build was a pounce-abusing Singh Rager and Frank's was a spirited charger who didn't have Cavalier or Singh Rager levels.

Eh?

I didn't even go to the Singh Rager part, because I was just looking at the straight up Monk vs Fighter comparison, where she showed the Monk could in fact get an AC equivalent to the fighter's with a little less cash.

Because like I said, "For a non min-maxer, her defense of the Monks vs Fighters was pretty brillant."

Again, read what I actually fucking wrote, as opposed to what you think I wrote.

Now that we're on the topic of secret motivations though. Why don't you just admit you're just doing this because you want to kiss Frank and K's ass?

[DeadlyReed]

This thread?

[Leress]

This thread?

That's the one I read.

[DeadlyReed]

Post the Tome Fighter to the Homebrew forum and see what happens.

[Leress]

Post the Tome Fighter to the Homebrew forum and see what happens.

Not worth the effort, it would be a waste of time. It would just be a retread of old shit. If people can't even see some of the fundamental problems then there is no real point of bring more extreme stuff to them. Also it would turn into "you are putting this up here to troll with Frank and K's stuff" blah blah blah.

[K]

Post the Tome Fighter to the Homebrew forum and see what happens.

Not worth the effort, it would be a waste of time. It would just be a retread of old shit. If people can't even see some of the fundamental problems then there is no real point of bring more extreme stuff to them. Also it would turn into "you are putting this up here to troll with Frank and K's stuff" blah blah blah.

I am confused as to how putting up an arguably viable alternative constitutes trolling, but then I guess I'm not insecure enough to get into Jason B.'s head.

I don't even see how the Fighter Sucking Issue is old news. I mean, they just released yet another book that could have used to fix warrior types (Advanced Player Options) and they failed to make fighting guys any better at keeping up with the spellcasters. Again.

In fact, they powered up spellcasters. Again.

[Leress]

I am confused as to how putting up an arguably viable alternative constitutes trolling, but then I guess I'm not insecure enough to get into Jason B.'s head.

Since there are a very many of the people went ape shit the first time it was put on the WOTC forums long ago are on those forums they would come out of the woodwork to say something.

I don't even see how the Fighter Sucking Issue is old news. I mean, they just released yet another book that could have used to fix warrior types (Advanced Player Options) and they failed to make fighting guys any better at keeping up with the spellcasters. Again.

The improve the fighter threads have been going on for years, it old ass news to me. I pretty much given up on Paizo doing anything about it when they fucked it up the first time.

Pointing out the flaws of their newest products, sure, it just gets annoying to see the same arguments made time and time again.

[erik]

I would argue that it is even more annoying that the same retarded design errors get repeated over and over. I would rather acknowledge and discuss a persistent and fixable error in the hopes of someday getting it right rather than glumly accepting that retarded must remain the status quo.