What IS magic, really?

[Sajber]

I don't know if that's a stupid question because it has an answer I don't know about or because it doesn't have an answer, at least not one well-defined. I looked around a bit and tried to find an answer; in the books, here, etc, but didn't find much except "it's magic!".

What do you people know? Is there actually some sort of explanation out there, or at least theories? I'm not after some sciency-type stuff, just if anybody gave the concept more thought than simply "it's magic!" when they wrote it up. I realize that the concept of magic is just that - things we can explain, but I'm curious, none the less.

[Judging__Eagle]

I personally go with Arthur C. Clarke.

It's science that most people are too stupid to understand.

Specifically though, I base my notions on what 'magic' is on my own theories and ideas. It's not a set in stone method, but rather one that's slowly evolved over several years.

Right now, it's basically all based on electro-magnetism.

EM fields are literally everywhere; merely thinking in a certain manner throws off different brain waves than you would normally have.

So thought is a part of it. Meditation, concentration, insight, and force of personality can change how your brain is functioning; and I've felt that pretty much all of the core spell casters are fine using separate mental stats to determine how they power their abilities.

An other thing that has come about more recently is my realization that the notion of "chakras", as well as 'body energy' ("chi", "qi", etc.) isn't based on nothing. Human blood has a very small portion of its mass in the form of hemoglobin (red blood cells; technically blue, but red when exposed to air). Now, hemoglobin is largely iron.

So, every living creature, with a carbon-based form, and hemoglobin using blood is very slightly giving off 'some' sort of electromagnetic signal, just from all of this diluted iron flowing about at different speeds.

How this works exactly, I'm not sure. More powerful spell casters have a much better command of their own personal energy sources, from training, and being in high stress/near death situations probably gives a lot of very profound insights into how to tap into, focus, channel, or otherwise control your bodies ability to regulate breathing, blood flow, and brain waves.

Then, of course there's the notion that the ground, the land, the earth itself has power in it, on it, through it. In some game descriptions it's called Ley Lines, in others.... it's handwaved, in others it's not really mentioned. However, a lot of people feel that "places" have power, and given the fact that the Earth is a giant freaking magnet of quite literally global proportions; with deposits of all sorts of minerals placed 'seemingly' at random (tectonic action), then there probably is some value to the notion that some places are going to be "more magnetic/empowered/etc" than other places.

Stuff like suns, moons, stars, using special equipment, making offerings, and even stuff like blood sacrifices all seem to work with such a system; as such things either 1) affect the earth's gravity and magnetic field 2) can help plan 'timing' or location precisely 3) can help focus energy better (copper knife you say? that sounds rather conductive. What about a golden one?) or 4) you are basically dumping energy en mass to empower an event or effect (from crushing gems and breaking a sapling, to killing chickens, or virgins).

Of course, I don't have anything set in stone in terms of mechanics. Especially not for D&D, but it's something that is helping me to figure out how I want to arrange my own magical system in my game. Especially for non-combat time spells; because I seriously do want all types of characters to 'cast' out of combat spells/rituals to do things that they think will help them in their goals. Fighters get to bathe in dragon blood, and get something out of that. While rogues wear the sound of cat's tread, and get something out of that.




My own game system is going to be using a 7 'main' slot item system (hands, and hand-held things don't count towards this limit; getting "extra" arms is an ability, but it has decided opportunity costs, and a character can only carry more weapons, tools, usable items at a time; but not actually use them at the same time) where players put items onto different parts of the body; and will expect effects based on 1) the type of item worn and 2) where the item is worn.

also... I just realized that 'chakra' magic being "magic of blue".... actually meshes well with the fact that in its unaffected state, blood is blue. While in its affected state, blood is red. The fact that the bottom colour descriptor in all of the "powers of blue" classes that have been written up is red is... honestly even more awesome.

My own game system doesn't have any 'chakra' or 'magic of blue' "classes"; since my system is classless. However... changing what the colour of "psychic" powers are, from purple (based on an other game system, where 'mind powers' are represented as purple) to blue... and having an in-setting reason for it.... is pretty reasonable (I'll probably throw 'mentalists' a bone for flavor though; they can pick, blue, red or purple as the colour for their powers; and they represent controlled emotions/mind, uncontrolled emotions/mind, and emotional/mental balance).

Non-living things like undead; rely on Onyx to tap into, and channel negative energy from the plane of negative energy. Their auras are all black, and stuff, I guess.

While constructs are basically statues with elementals trapped inside as the power source and pilot rolled into one.

[CCarter]

Well, a few random theories:

1) the traditional (as in, I think this is how IRL 'wizards' believed magic operated) is that you're calling on spirits to do stuff for you. A spell works because you're literally speaking to a spirit and using its name in a command to get it to work for you. I find this a little unsatisfying as an explanation for D&D magic, since it feels like the wizard has no real innate power - he's just a guy in charge of some djinns or whatever.

2) subjective reality. Mage The Ascension had a fairly reasonable explanation for how magic worked (though not implementation so much!) in that it assumes reality itself is generated by people's beliefs. Therefore, magic is directly changing reality - the wizard believes he can reshape things and therefore he can. Many wizards simply believe that a given spell or recitation works - and so it does. Under this theory you could give your apprentice a shopping list written in Latin and tell him its the formula for fireball, and if he believed you enough it would work...

3) Magic as energy. Magic uses energy, a spell is a formula for shaping this. This is the most common theory, actually, but why a chant and some spell formula works is left pretty much unexplained. In D&D itself the 1st ed. DMG wrote that 'magic energy' came from outside the caster (any spell beyond about 2nd level requiring a direct energy expenditure that would be lethal to the wizard) - casting a spell spell switches the material components for energy from the Positive Energy Plane which actually fuels the spell. 1st ed. Manual of the Planes had different levels of 'magical energy' suffusing alternate prime planes, which didn't quite sync with this.

4) Magic as psionics. (e.g. Tunnels and Trolls). The T&T system presumesd that 'magic' is psionic (it doesn't have a separate psionics system). The wizard manipulates energy mentally - the chants and formulae they use are a mental 'crutch' that helps the wizard concentrate.

5) magic as 'alternative physical laws'. e.g. Pier's Anthony's Phaze books had magic operating in areas where science didn't, as it worked off an alternative set of physical laws.
As an extension of this, you can have magic being a wizard somehow tapping into another dimension, and letting them use its rules to do things rather than their own - though again while it explains magic breaking physical laws, it doesn't explain how magic words and whatnot are actually useful. So a wizard can create matter because in Wizardspace there's no such thing as Conservation of Energy, then he brings whatever it is here.
D&D basic (the Immortals set) tried using this concept in a particularly weird way - an Immortals powers worked because they were four-dimensional beings, and magic didn't work in planes that were 'squashed' or 'flat' as regarded the higher dimensions. The explanation sorted of worked for explaining say Teleport, but not much else in magic's usual mechanics. Mostly it was I guess for hosing deity powers when they had to visit 'flat' planes.

[angelfromanotherpin]

What do you people know? Is there actually some sort of explanation out there, or at least theories? I'm not after some sciency-type stuff, just if anybody gave the concept more thought than simply "it's magic!" when they wrote it up. I realize that the concept of magic is just that - things we can explain, but I'm curious, none the less.

It's wholly dependent on the setting:

• In Inuit mythology, magic is an esoteric energy that builds up in things that travel long distances; which is then tapped into and directed with symbolism.

• In the Invincible comics, magic is precursor hyper-technology stored in otherspace and activated by thought. Magic words are old passwords and file names.

• In Ars Magica, magic is (probably) tapping into the Platonic universe of ideal forms, which may or may not be the counter-cyclic negative-entropy alam of circular time.

• In Cargo Cult mythology, magic is a combination of bribing your ancestors who haven't actually died so much as become invisible and hidden behind foliage; and building mock airstrips so that the airplanes that come from a bizarre interpretation of Christian Heaven accessible by ladder will land and give you free stuff.

So... yeah.

[Grek]

There's all sorts of theories. Alot of them are specifically non-scientific, in that they reject empericism as a valid mode of investigation. Here's a half dozen:


Subjective Reality Theory: If we assume that the universe is subjective, or at least that our perception of the universe is subjective, and that it appears to be whatever we beleive it to appear to be, it's alot like the actual physical universe is subjective to the individual. As such, if you consider something to be true on a basic, fundemental level, it really is true as far as you'd ever be able to tell. Once you've accepted this as true, you can accept whatever you want to be true as true and make it true by accepting it as such. Which is alot like magic, and if you want to call it magic, that's what it's called.

Object Agency Theory: Assume for a second that material objects have agency and that they can make choices. Go on to assume that these objects can be communicated with. One step further is the assumption that these objects can be convinced to do something other than what they normally do. In order to magically move a brick three feet into the air and have it hover there, all you have to do is convince, conive or threaten the brick untill it is convinced that being three feet in the air, hovering, is much much better than the alternative of doing whatever it is that normally does.

Mutable Physics Theory: Let's assume that all of the physical laws of the universe are actually written down some place. Maybe in a book of laws written by the hand of the Creator, maybe as a universal code that gets complied to decide how CO2 forms. If you were to change this code, or put in exceptions for yourself, or write yourself in as being immune to certain laws, you can do that and it will work. It's also very easy to screw this up and kill everyone, though, so you'll want to make up some mechanism that will prevent that.

Ideas as Physical Law Theory: Let's assume that Plato was right and that every object has a Platonic Form from which it is derived and which it can resemble to a greater or lesser degree. Let's also assume that there exists some method for making an object resemble that Form to a greater or lesser degree or to even change which Platonic Form an object is based on, thereby changing it from a human to a dead human to a living human to a living elephant respectively.

Diety Theory: The Universe exists as it is by the will of an Almighty God. If you are in the favour of that God, than you can pray to them to have them make vast changes to the nature of reality and then that will happen. The God in question can also just decided to hand down changes by Divine Writ and make the universe look like whatever it wants it too.

Dialethic Theory: Let's assume that the principle of non-contradiction is actually wrong in addition to being right. Once your recognize this, you can point out that, in addition to your brain not exploding, it also is exploding. Which is horribly mind-warping on a level beyond the basic "my brain is now combusting because magic" level.

There's also a whole pile of theories which are, in fact, scientific.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Confusing qi with electromagnetism is utterly stupid and comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of one or both of the concepts.

[Judging__Eagle]

Here's the Wired Article that got me thinking on my theories.

Qi has to be something physical. It can't be something from nothing. There has to be something that can be quantified and measured, if not it's not real.

The fact that qi means "breathing" is rather telling for me; as controlling your breathing also can affect heart rate, and the pulmonary system is the first body system that the cardio-vascular system hooks into. Breathing and Bloodflow are intimately linked in my experience.

Whenever I have panic attacks, I find that controlling my breathing, helps to control the over-active heartrate that comes with excess stress.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Here's the Wired Article that got me thinking on my theories.

Qi has to be something physical. It can't be something from nothing. There has to be something that can be quantified and measured, if not it's not real.

There are basically three possibilities here:
1) Qi isn't real (the null hypothesis)
2) Qi is a physical, quantifiable substance substance
3) Qi has a physical, quantifiable effect

By conflating Western/modern/scientific notions of existence with the presence or absence of qi, you misunderstand what qi is.

The fact that qi means "breathing" is rather telling for me; as controlling your breathing also can affect heart rate, and the pulmonary system is the first body system that the cardio-vascular system hooks into. Breathing and Bloodflow are intimately linked in my experience.

Whenever I have panic attacks, I find that controlling my breathing, helps to control the over-active heartrate that comes with excess stress.

Qi means "breath", but it also means a ton of other things. Qi governs the blood, but that doesn't mean that electromagnetism is guiding blood through the veins. Rebellious blood doesn't necessarily mean that your body's electromagnetic field is messed up. Stagnant blood doesn't indicate a dearth of electromagnetic energy.

When you extend qi through your fingers, you're not projecting electromagnetic energy. When your qi connects to another person's through the eyes or a smile, that doesn't mean that your bodies' electromagnetic fields have suddenly become one (even if it can feel like a jolt of electricity).


Clearly in a fantasy world these things could behave differently, but unlike 'magic' electromagnetism and qi are actually reasonably well defined concepts in the real world.

[Ice9]

Two ideas I've thought about using:

The Universe Next Door

At the start of the universe, reality split. One half divided, formed matter and energy, and became the entirety of the world as we know it. The other half, parallel but unreachable within three dimensions, remained in the undivided ur-state, all matter and energy interchangeable.

Some people, whether born that way or altered by magic, have part of their nervous system displaced into the parallel universe. The nerve impulses along those paths are slight, but in the undivided proto-state of the other universe, sufficient to catalyze reactions that breach the boundary.

So basically, magic is pulling things (pretty much any matter or energy, although some forms are harder to shape than others) from the other universe, or sending things into it. Sending something permanently will pretty much destroy it, but people can survive a few seconds - long enough to pull them out from a different location, since distance doesn't work the same way there.

Spell formulas, chants, hand gestures - these are all mnemonic devices to produce the correct mental state that will result in the desired impulses passing through the boundary nerves. Magic is not particularly tiring, but does have a limit over time - the displaced nerves only cover a certain area of other-space. With heavy usage, that area will become "thin", possessing less proto-matter to shape and less energy to pull things in. Over time, thin areas will fill in again, and a more experienced caster can create chain reactions within other-space, increasing the area they draw from.

Everything is Ideas

The foundation of reality isn't atoms or the four elements, it's concepts. A tree boils down to a hierarchy of concepts, with "Tree" at the top, and things like "Bark" and "Leaf" farther down the line. Change the concepts, or re-arrange them, and you change the tree - into a pile of wood, or a flaming tree, or for that matter a lion.

The easiest change is to re-arrange concepts, changing their order or relation but not their idea. More difficult is to transmute a concept, turning it into something else. The most difficult change is to create or destroy concepts. And in all cases, twisting things momentarily is much easier than creating a change which persists.

How this change is accomplishes is not fully understood. First, any would-be mage must have their own concept altered to include changing other concepts in its purview. Second, you need the ability to see through the face of reality to the underlying symbols. And third, you need absolute focus and resolve to force a shift.

Once you can do this, there's no limit per-se, but altering other concepts does affect your own; too much without repairing it, and there may be unwanted consequences. Or you can just pick changes that will tilt you in a survivable direction, say to hell with the consequences, and cast with no limit. This pretty much how demons are created.

[Zinegata]

Magic is the means by which whatever the plot demands is made to happen.

[Sajber]

Cool ideas! Gotta say that I've always liked the "belief can move mountains"-path. Maybe just cause it's in the Planescape game, and I love (most of) Planescape. Thanks!

[Judging__Eagle]

Qi means "breath", but it also means a ton of other things. Qi governs the blood, but that doesn't mean that electromagnetism is guiding blood through the veins. Rebellious blood doesn't necessarily mean that your body's electromagnetic field is messed up. Stagnant blood doesn't indicate a dearth of electromagnetic energy.

uhh.....


What I'm referring to is the idea that iron being moved along conduits, at different speeds, and usually at high pressure and speed; is going to create noticeable EM currents.

Not that you have an EM field, and your Qi or blood is affected by it. Rather; your EM field is modified by your blood flow. Being in control of yourself, allows you to control how your bodies seven chakras function, and that in turn allows you to control the EM fields active in/on/around the body.

Also, the brain is noted for being a place where electric current is detectable.

I'm likening Electromagnetic Waves to Qi, with the flow of blood being the reason the body produces certain types of EMW. In the sense that Qi = energy; and EM fields/waves are measurable energies.

Rebellious blood.... doesn't make sense in this context; but slow blood does. However, slow blood doesn't mean that your Qi is "less". It just means that it's not racing around. If anything, it is just operating at a different (lower) frequency.

When you extend qi through your fingers, you're not projecting electromagnetic energy. When your qi connects to another person's through the eyes or a smile, that doesn't mean that your bodies' electromagnetic fields have suddenly become one (even if it can feel like a jolt of electricity).

How do you know? Has anyone tested it?

Also, it's not like the analogy that your energy can reach out and 'touch' someone else's hasn't been made in the past, across multiple cultures.

Clearly in a fantasy world these things could behave differently, but unlike 'magic' electromagnetism and qi are actually reasonably well defined concepts in the real world.

I feel that while EM may be defined, it's got a lot of things that aren't investigated fully; and of course Qi is treated as a psuedo-science, and not cracked open and looked at behind the curtain.

Qi is supposed to be not only breath, energy, motion.... but also things like "will", and "intent". Things like thought, and such things are measurable, especially thought.

[Kaelik]

Why the fuck are you tards talking about imaginary shit like it's real and not in the context of fantasy?

EDIT: For now, you tards only applies to Judging Eagle. Carthaz is pushing it.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Qi means "breath", but it also means a ton of other things. Qi governs the blood, but that doesn't mean that electromagnetism is guiding blood through the veins. Rebellious blood doesn't necessarily mean that your body's electromagnetic field is messed up. Stagnant blood doesn't indicate a dearth of electromagnetic energy.

uhh.....


What I'm referring to is the idea that iron being moved along conduits, at different speeds, and usually at high pressure and speed; is going to create noticeable EM currents.

Not that you have an EM field, and your Qi or blood is affected by it. Rather; your EM field is modified by your blood flow. Being in control of yourself, allows you to control how your bodies seven chakras function, and that in turn allows you to control the EM fields active in/on/around the body.

Also, the brain is noted for being a place where electric current is detectable.

I'm likening Electromagnetic Waves to Qi, with the flow of blood being the reason the body produces certain types of EMW. In the sense that Qi = energy; and EM fields/waves are measurable energies.

Rebellious blood.... doesn't make sense in this context; but slow blood does. However, slow blood doesn't mean that your Qi is "less". It just means that it's not racing around. If anything, it is just operating at a different (lower) frequency.

The electric fields generated by moving blood can have a significant physiological effect [1]. That alone, however, isn't enough evidence to equate qi with the electric fields generated by moving blood, the electrical field of the body, and/or the magnetic field of the body. It's an interesting idea, but my intuition is that these manifestations of electromagnetic radiation are less important to the classical Chinese concept of qi than (e.g.) the normal effects of blood flow, hormones, and conscious thought (which does take the form of electrochemical action potentials, but I digress...).

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 0-0066.pdf

When you extend qi through your fingers, you're not projecting electromagnetic energy. When your qi connects to another person's through the eyes or a smile, that doesn't mean that your bodies' electromagnetic fields have suddenly become one (even if it can feel like a jolt of electricity).

How do you know? Has anyone tested it?

Also, it's not like the analogy that your energy can reach out and 'touch' someone else's hasn't been made in the past, across multiple cultures.

Touché. My intuition is that the weak electrical fields that exist outside of the body and attenuate via an inverse square law are unlikely to result in significant action at a distance (and the magnetic fields are even weaker), but I don't hold any scientific proof.

Clearly in a fantasy world these things could behave differently, but unlike 'magic' electromagnetism and qi are actually reasonably well defined concepts in the real world.

I feel that while EM may be defined, it's got a lot of things that aren't investigated fully; and of course Qi is treated as a psuedo-science, and not cracked open and looked at behind the curtain.

Qi is supposed to be not only breath, energy, motion.... but also things like "will", and "intent". Things like thought, and such things are measurable, especially thought.

Breath, energy, and motion are all fairly straightforward to measure, but things like will and intent are not. If you can come up a simple way to quantitatively measure either of the two then please PM me and I'll steal it to write a psychology PhD thesis.

If you ignore the more abstract meanings of qi (like intent) and the more concrete (like breath) to focus on a clinical definition, it might be possible to come up with something resembling science. I think, however, the result will have more in common with the idea of 'health' than the idea of 'the cardiovascular system' or even 'the body's electromagnetic energy'.

[Judging__Eagle]

Kaelik, I want to be able to explain 'magic' from a scientific point of view.

Handwaving isn't really what I want to do. If anything, it's the complete opposite of what I want for my game system.

Anything that is reasonably plausible from "your brain waves can alter an objects attendant outer electrons, causing changes in the targeted object" to "living creatures have innate electromagnetic fields, controlling your body, allows you to have affect the world with a non-physical part of your body" to "the world is a giant fucking magnet, if you do certain things, you can make stuff happen" (or, even all three at once; the earth is a magnet; people are magnetic fields, and brains give off different frequencies; you control your thoughts, and respiration, in an attempt to act locally, or tap into the global magnetic field).

I want to use existing phenomena to create a system that explains things that may seem "supernatural". I know it's a bit too much "behind the curtain" for some people; but unless I have 'some' way of explaining supernatural effects, I will always have people putting up mental barriers as soon as the game introduces 'magic'. The goal is transparency. I don't ever plan to be able explain the details; but merely the concepts that drive seemingly supernatural events.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The idea of defining magic as pseudoscience just seems bizarre, because magic doesn't exist in the real world.

I like starting from a few first principles which seem intuitively right, but which we know to be false (or at least not magically effective) in the real world.

For example, people feel that they should be able to gain something by sacrificing something. It's like a trade with the universe: 'I'll burn this money and my friend's cancer will be cured'. This is a good basic principle of magic (it helps that people really do try to do magic this way).

Oaths have power, but it's the power of social convention and pressure. People, however, like to anthropomorphize, and imagine that the universe can be bound by promises. This is another good source of magical power.

It also makes sense that an action on a piece should be able to invoke the whole. You can use a lock of somebody's hair to make them sick, you can use the claw of a bear to call forth its spirit, and you can expand a single loaf of bread to feed hundreds.

None of these indicate a physical principle (magic fields, thauons, or electromagnetism) by which they operate: they work 'by magic' (and then by normal physics). But they do work in an understandable and controlled fashion that could (for example) be tested via scientific experiments.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik, I want to be able to explain 'magic' from a scientific point of view.

Handwaving isn't really what I want to do. If anything, it's the complete opposite of what I want for my game system.

Anything that is reasonably plausible from "your brain waves can alter an objects attendant outer electrons, causing changes in the targeted object" to "living creatures have innate electromagnetic fields, controlling your body, allows you to have affect the world with a non-physical part of your body" to "the world is a giant fucking magnet, if you do certain things, you can make stuff happen" (or, even all three at once; the earth is a magnet; people are magnetic fields, and brains give off different frequencies; you control your thoughts, and respiration, in an attempt to act locally, or tap into the global magnetic field).

I want to use existing phenomena to create a system that explains things that may seem "supernatural". I know it's a bit too much "behind the curtain" for some people; but unless I have 'some' way of explaining supernatural effects, I will always have people putting up mental barriers as soon as the game introduces 'magic'. The goal is transparency. I don't ever plan to be able explain the details; but merely the concepts that drive seemingly supernatural events.

So... When you posted all that shit about Qui, and specifically asked Carthaz if he had evidence that Magnetic Fields don't align/affect each other at distance, where you talking about the real world, or an example fantasy world?

If real world: See my previous comment.

If fantasy, then no need to see previous comment, because you are talking about fantasy.

[PhaedrusXY]

I kind of like the whole "Words have Power" theme, that Tolkien used somewhat, and which can also be found in some D&D supplements (the Truenamer class, Words of Creation feat, etc). I've read an interesting interpretation of the bible that uses this, also (God said "Let there be light"... "The Word Made Flesh", etc. There are a lot of things that seem to indicate that Words themselves have power in there). This could be lumped under the "a deity did it" explanations, but puts an extra "buffer layer" between the mages who are using these magic words and deific whim. They don't have to appease the gods to generate magical effects if the gods have already created magic words which exist independently of themselves. That would be the "wizardly" approach. Or you could just ask the gods to use their magic words themselves on your behalf, which would be what clerics do.

Making music magical also is interesting, and Tolkien did quite a bit more along this line (especially in the Silmarillion). Mercedes Lackey also has some books that lean heavily on this theme. In this case, generating a magical effect would basically be repeating a certain Song of Power in the right way (maybe the song of creation, if you're going with the Silmarillion version). The Seeker of the Song PrC in D&D talks about something like this, IIRC.

[PoliteNewb]

The idea of defining magic as pseudoscience just seems bizarre, because magic doesn't exist in the real world.

I like starting from a few first principles which seem intuitively right, but which we know to be false (or at least not magically effective) in the real world.

This. Magic works best not where it meshes with how we understand real-world physics, but where it works as a sort of "alternate physics". Certain laws and principles simply ARE in fantasy worlds, the same way gravity and electromagnetism are in our world...and sometimes these laws and principles are "oaths done in a certain fashion are concretely binding" or "tasting someone's blood lets your magic work more effectively on them".

Ancient swordsmiths didn't understand metallurgy the way we do now...but they knew that if you did certain things to the iron blade you were forging, it came out awesome. They couldn't explain it, but they could do it, and they could teach you to do it. That's magic: something inexplicable but nonetheless entirely and demonstrably real.

[Mask_De_H]

The idea of defining magic as pseudoscience just seems bizarre, because magic doesn't exist in the real world.

I like starting from a few first principles which seem intuitively right, but which we know to be false (or at least not magically effective) in the real world.

This. Magic works best not where it meshes with how we understand real-world physics, but where it works as a sort of "alternate physics". Certain laws and principles simply ARE in fantasy worlds, the same way gravity and electromagnetism are in our world...and sometimes these laws and principles are "oaths done in a certain fashion are concretely binding" or "tasting someone's blood lets your magic work more effectively on them".

Ancient swordsmiths didn't understand metallurgy the way we do now...but they knew that if you did certain things to the iron blade you were forging, it came out awesome. They couldn't explain it, but they could do it, and they could teach you to do it. That's magic: something inexplicable but nonetheless entirely and demonstrably real.

Is this the "any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science" chestnut? Even though the science isn't correct, it's studied and applied like it were?

[CatharzGodfoot]

The idea of defining magic as pseudoscience just seems bizarre, because magic doesn't exist in the real world.

I like starting from a few first principles which seem intuitively right, but which we know to be false (or at least not magically effective) in the real world.

This. Magic works best not where it meshes with how we understand real-world physics, but where it works as a sort of "alternate physics". Certain laws and principles simply ARE in fantasy worlds, the same way gravity and electromagnetism are in our world...and sometimes these laws and principles are "oaths done in a certain fashion are concretely binding" or "tasting someone's blood lets your magic work more effectively on them".

Ancient swordsmiths didn't understand metallurgy the way we do now...but they knew that if you did certain things to the iron blade you were forging, it came out awesome. They couldn't explain it, but they could do it, and they could teach you to do it. That's magic: something inexplicable but nonetheless entirely and demonstrably real.

Is this the "any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science" chestnut? Even though the science isn't correct, it's studied and applied like it were?

I think so, in a sense, but the fact is that in a fantasy world physics work differently (e.g. creating or destroying energy), but to have an understandable game world you still have to be able to apply scientific principles to develop a theory of how those fantasy physics work.

If pure belief and will can shape physical reality, then you can measure how certain beliefs shape physical reality, how much force of will an individual can exert, how the wills of multiple individuals combine, how will power attenuates with distance, and so forth.

'Incorrect science studied and applied like it were' is a different issue: it's how well developed your scientific theories are. If you think you can transmute lead into gold by applying the same transformations that the celestial spheres use to do the same, you're simply acting on an incorrect hypothesis--unless that's actually how metals are formed in your magical world, in which case you're applying a correct scientific hypothesis.

Remember that in the real world, a big part of science is improving scientific models that are mostly correct. Newtonian physics is corrected via relativity, but Newtonian physics aren't so much 'incorrect' as 'imprecise'.

[souran]

AFter reading a few philisophical fantasy novels like R. Scott Bakker and (Ugh) Terry Goodkind I have tossed about the idea of magic as the extension of a nietzchean effort of creative will. Basically, all action is an attempt to bring about the users will into the universe. Creating a tool or a piece of art is shaping the universe to your creative desire. However, such human methods are constrained by physical reality. Magic is the ability to perfectly externalize your creativity and to will your desires onto the universe.

I guess this would sort of be the inverse of the subjective reality magic. The subjective magic universe is based on belief - this magic universe is based on will. However, similar to the subjective universe magic system spell components, magic words and what not are the tools that you use to project your will and are analogos to the brushes of a painter.

[CCarter]

I think so, in a sense, but the fact is that in a fantasy world physics work differently (e.g. creating or destroying energy), but to have an understandable game world you still have to be able to apply scientific principles to develop a theory of how those fantasy physics work.

I guess there's two schools of thought here as well: one school assumes that a fantasy world has essentially the same physical laws as ours, but that magic (whatever it is) lets you have exceptions to those laws. With this idea ihings like giants (which should collapse under their own weight) or darkvision (seeing without light waves) should be magical because they violate physical laws.

The other view is that its a fantasy world and the actual physics may be different - Four Elements chemistry, humours, diseases causes by evil spirits, etc. Here magic may just be some way of exploiting the game worlds' dodgy physics. Often you're left wondering how the physics actually works - usually this thinking isn't really developed as an 'alternate physics' (which it has potential for), its more just people going 'fuck you' to scienticians that come along and tell them their giants should fall over in antimagic fields, usually on the grounds that its a fantasy world' and nothing has to make sense.

BTW conservation of energy isn't absolute IRL. There are phenomena called 'quantum fluctuations' which generate energy from nothing at basically a single particle level, very briefly. Mostly they don't do very much, though from what I know they're theorized to cause black holes to be 'fuzzy' and so dissipate if under a certain size.

[MfA]

A scientific explanation can be given for magic .... but satisfactory explanations which can be given for magic based on rather arbitrary pagan rituals such as in D&D are harder.

God is a dick who likes seeing you play around with bat shit and making a fool of yourself is an explanation which somewhat works ... but not very satisfactory.

The only satisfactory source for arcane rituals I see are the stupid superstitious humans themselves. The impact of symbolism and rituals comes from the power it's given by our collective unconscious, which can reshape reality since reality is just a shared dream (or a matrix simulation being run in our brains while we lay asleep in big towers). Magic works the way it does because that's how we think it should work.

How are new spells created? The caster can tap into the collective unconscious and plant new seeds there (of course taking existing idiocy into account ... so again creating ridiculous rituals to go along with them).

[erik]

In some of Charles Stross' books there's modern magic intelligence agencies that work to keep the peace. If I recall their basis for magic is that there are other dimensions and elder beings, and certain math equations, algorithms and philosophical thoughts can actually bridge to sources of power that do strange and powerful magical things. It is essentially a technology that is kept under wraps and hidden from the public at large because it would be quite dangerous if people could learn how to cast mid-high level wizard D&D spells in modern day life.

I guess this may bear repeating in the D20 modern thread... tangentially.