Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[icyshadowlord]

Anyone want to tell me if the newer Adventure Paths are better or worse than the older ones?

I recall a really old post that summed up the Good, Bad and Ugly parts of the Adventure Paths that still used the 3.5e rules.

[Axebird]

I haven't played far into many of them, but I GMed Reign of Winter up to book 4 recently until we all mutually decided to abandon it and do something else. It's really repetitive and formulaic, and I had to rewrite pretty much every encounter due to Paizo's constant rules and balancing fuck-ups. For example, in the first book, in one of the first encounters, there's an enemy whose tactics include charging people through goddamn difficult terrain with no ability to mitigate that.

[angelfromanotherpin]

That is a shame. The concept for RoW was very amusing, and what I saw of the stats for Russian riflemen looked very entertaining.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Would a strict reading of that FAQ ruling prevent any untyped ability score bonuses from stacking (e.g. the monk AC bonus and dexterity bonus to AC)?
___

An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. . . . The paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
___
emphasis mine

[Axebird]

Who even knows. Paizo's FAQ is frequently flat out wrong (when it's not supposed to be a bizarre stand-in for errata) or contradictory, or written in such a way that figuring out what they actually meant is nearly impossible. Unless you're forced to abide by it (I weep for people who can only play RPGs through Pathfinder Society), disregarding the stupid thing will probably be the best thing you can do for your mental health.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Regarding the various character optimization guides for Pathfinder, I'm absolutely amazed by how little people seem to regard the Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline feat for Arcane Bond. If there is one feat chain that is damn near an auto-include for any full spellcaster, it's that one. That one should be rated gold. Not sky blue, gold. It has saved my bacon hardcore and made my life much easier going forward as a cleric.

I'm almost tempted to write up a spell analysis/mini optimization guide for cleric. In particular, the spell Holy Ice Weapon has brought the Cleric Archer back to their old glory.

But anyway, a quick primer on the three main cleric builds:

A.) Blaster Cleric. In 3.5E D&D, the Blaster Cleric referred to clerics who abused the shit out of the Holy Word line of spells and various silly turning options. Pathfinder nerfed a lot of these options along with some cleric staples but in return greatly increased the power and utility of a lot of lower-level spells. It's possible to play a Blaster Cleric from level 3 to 20 and not have any of the gaps and hiccups in power that 3.5E Blaster Clerics did. Blaster Clerics can have a sub-speciality of turning or summoning for added utility. There are obscure but very effective turning builds which allow you to nauseate a bunch of foes as a move-action and summoning can be pretty powerful if you specialize in it. And summoning is definitely a thing that you want to specialize in in you want to do it at all because the summon CR/combat CR gap makes it very hard for your summons to actually hit unless you have some attack boosters in your corner pocket. Burst of Radiance, Charitable Impulse, Drunkard's Breath, Hydrophobia + Decanter of Endless Water, Vision of Hell + Aura of Doom, Greater Forbid Action, Constricting Coils, Chains of Light, and Plaguestorm are Pathfinder-only spells that greatly increase your blasting power. You also get some very good expansion options that 3.5E D&D didn't have such as the Veiled Illusionist PrC and the Separatist Archetype. Dazing Spell ain't a bad feat either, but it requires a pretty big feat/trait investment. Fortunately, Blaster Cleric is pretty easy on the feats.

B.) Cleric Archer. This character works pretty much like FrankTrollman's build in 3.5E D&D. The Divine Power nerfs really hurt the build at first but as time went on Pathfinder released a bunch of crazy bullshit that mitigated the pain.

C.) Cleric Monk. This build relies on Pathfinder's policy of publishing a ton of crazy bullshit that helps enhance unarmed strikes along with Pathfinder printing a few stupid cleric-only expansion options that actual Brawlers and Monks don't get. It's extremely feat and stat intensive but does stupid amounts of damage. Recommended races are human/half-elf/half-orc with the improved hat of disguise or the Racial Heritage feat (so you can use the Gifts of the Deep spell) or Samsaran to plunder the shit out of paladin and inquisitor spells. I'm also sure that there's some way to use Monstrous Extermity, too, but damn if I know how.

This is in addition to all of the various stupid shit the game released to make clerics even more the king of everything. Page-Bound Epiphany, Planned Assault, and Spiritual Ancestor might not be as sexy as 3.5E Divine Power, but it will sure make all of the non-full casters feel small in the pants. And fuck, you have Spellcasting Contract and Bloodsworn Retribution; the only thing you're missing from 3.5E weapon attackers are the extra attacks. And depending on your spell payout you may not even miss that.

[Orca]

Regarding the various character optimization guides for Pathfinder, I'm absolutely amazed by how little people seem to regard the Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline feat for Arcane Bond. If there is one feat chain that is damn near an auto-include for any full spellcaster, it's that one. That one should be rated gold. Not sky blue, gold. It has saved my bacon hardcore and made my life much easier going forward as a cleric.

If that's about getting a familiar, they can be as much a PITA as they are useful wand-firing mechanisms. Or if it's about a bonded item, it's not obvious how a bonded item would work at all if you don't have spells known or a spellbook of your own.

Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane got nerfed into the ground recently by FAQ/errata which says that it doesn't change your class spell list, and that if you know a spell that isn't on your class spell list you can't cast it.

Edit: I'd be interested to see your thoughts on cleric spells though.

[Lago PARANOIA]

What's there to say about how useful having an arcane bonded item is for a cleric? There are a ton of spells that are absolute lifesavers when the specific situation for them comes up but you nonetheless wouldn't want to prepare or dump scroll money onto. Stone Shape, Recentering Drone, Break Enchantment, Dispel Magic, Tongues, Spell Immunity, Water Breathing/Walk, Communal Resist Energy, Wind Wall, Communal Delay Poison, Restoration (you should be carrying scrolls of that anyway, though), Dismissal, Breath of Life. This is aside from how useful it is when you're not adventuring but don't have downtime -- such as having the guard captain bust into the inn -- and the fact that you get an extra spell of any level you can cast for no good raisin.'

Eldritch Heritage: Arcane (Arcane Bond) is seriously the best D&D feat for clerics that people will generically allow at the table. Hell, I'd pick it over plenty of expansion options that people do tend to ban at their table like Divine Metamagic.

[Longes]

So, basically it's an 'abuse' of the fact that cleric's spellbook is "Spells - All" and writers not thinking through the implications of feature cross polination.

[Archmage Joda]

If you did write a guide, mini or otherwise, for pathfinder cleric, Lago, I'd certainly read it. I'm most interested in the cleric monk or blaster cleric builds of what you mentioned.

Also, I know it's primarily a flavor concern, and mechanically a cleric doesn't actually need to have a god, but what would be some other ideas for refluffing a cleric to not be so god bothering?

[Kaelik]

Yeah, I'm a bit in the market for a Cleric Guide, of the kind that says "here is all the crazy pathfinder hidden oddities that you can use to be OP" as opposed to saying what the good paths to go are, because I really don't want to have to do all the fucking work to find that shit, but I'm getting frustrated that there are like 3 Pathfinder games around me and zero 3.5.

[Longes]

I'm assuming you guys don't want that one cleric guide that already exists?

[Archmage Joda]

Well, I can't speak for others, but I would like one that's a tad more up to date, since if you're thinking of the one I'm thinking of, it's rather outdated at this point.

[Kaelik]

I'm assuming you guys don't want that one cleric guide that already exists?

As I said "You should cast spells, because you are a fullcaster" is way less of what I am looking for than the nitty gritty bullshit features hidden in weird places. Since that guide is really old and made back when most of the nitty gritty didn't exist, it is not very useful for my purposes.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Okay. Guess I'll start on the guide. For now, these are level 4-6 spells. I'm not commenting on core 3.5E D&D spells unless Pathfinder changed them appreciably or there's a use that I feel most people don't know about. I'm also not going to comment on every Pathfinder spell, just the ones that stand out. I occasionally make mention of spells outside this level range; I might describe them and my opinions on the spells when I do level 1-3. Or I might now. I'm a lazy bastard.

4th-Level Cleric Spells

Ancestral Gift - Read the entire list of +1 weapon properties, Pathfinder published a mess of them. What you want this spell for is for weapon properties that don't require you to wield it to get the best effect out of it such as +1 courageous armor spikes. At 10/min level you could do a hell of a lot worse for buffs.

Blessing of Fervor - Pound-for-pound, this one of the best party spells ever published. Unless your party is doing something really weird like a team of blasters, there are few teams that couldn't use this spell in every combat. It kind of loses its punch later on when parties get a good bulge of attack bonus and have access to haste, but it's your go-to spell for levels 7-9.

Blood Crow Strike - Really weird spell that's hard to use right. Most clerics will find it useless, but cleric monks who are willing to make the investment (that is, metamagic reducers/cancellers + quicken + empower) will find that this spell is one of their best friends for pinch damage. However, do note that Sean K. Reynolds hates the fuck out of monks and since this is technically a flurry of blows attack if you're using methods to gain various stupid natural attacks you won't get those, too. Oh, well.

Death Ward - You don't need this spell as badly in Pathfinder as you do in 3.5E D&D due to Death effects getting nerfed and monsters uniformly getting toned down for energy drain. However, the effect is slight. Enough that once you get high enough level that you can pass this spell around to most everyone in the party before an ambush you'll probably still want to do so anyway.

Debilitating Portent - It's a pretty decent spell if you're fighting a huge bruiser monster like a dragon or a celestial T-Rex -- the life you save may be your own. The DC is also pretty damn high for its level, too.

Divine Power - Yeah, losing access to full BAB sucks. However, if you can live with that then the bonus to attack and damage is a pretty swell consolation prize, especially with that one trait that increases luck bonuses by +1. But then again, Quickened Divine Favor is right around the corner.

Dismissal - From a roleplaying perspective, this spell is a little iffy. I mean, anyone strong enough that you'd whip out this spell on isn't going to have a problem getting back if they want to. On the other hand, you're entitled to a full share of advancement and if they want to be your XP and GP pinata then who are you to stop them?

Forceful Strike - If you're a Cleric Monk that invested in the Bull Rush and/or Improved Trip chain, this spell can lead to a nice spate of extra damage if you've got spell slots to burn.

Giant Vermin - Giant Scorpions and Spiders are noticeably stronger in Pathfinder than 3.5E, in that they can actually hit things with their tail now. But they're still not very good. If you have Prayer Beads of Karma at level 7 or 8 then the Giant Scorpions aren't totally terrible. But that's the only way I could even reservedly recommend using this spell.

Gift of the Deep - This spell is very difficult to use... unless your DM rules that Alter Self can make you into a legal target for the spell, you have an animal companion, or you're a human with the Racial Heritage: Sahugin feat. If that does apply to you then bask in the fact that your Cleric Monk just got that much cheesier.

Imbue With Spell Ability - This is just a gentle reminder that this spell exists. And Pathfinder keeps publishing more and more abjuration and divination spells that you crave. If you're into massaging the action economy or just don't trust your knucklehead friends, I'd like to point out that it's significantly easier for clerics to grab a familiar in Pathfinder than in 3.5E D&D. And, shit, Recentering Drone + 2 Shields of Faith is more than enough argument for me.

Infernal Healing, Greater - Regular-ass Infernal Healing (fast healing 1 for one minute, first level spell) is good enough that it will probably (though there are some rare exceptions) completely displace Wands of Cure Light Wounds. This piece of crap was already on thin ice before Greater Path of Glory was printed, now it's just a pile of horseshit you have no reason to use.

Monstrous Extremity - Now who would turn down the opportunity to transform your useless-ass feet into hooves? Well, most people, really. Unless you're, again, a Cleric Monk. Then it's just more damage to beat your opponents into the ground with.

Path of Glory, Greater - This spell actually provides a fuckton of healing for its spell level. A single casting of this spell when you first get it can heal 5 people of 35 hit points and like the rest of the party 30 hit points. Stretch out those Wands of Infernal Healing/Cure Light Wounds! Maybe use your Channel Energy for something besides raw healing! Note that you are still not going to want to carry around scrolls of these things because while they are very cheap compared to most spells they're still overpriced compared to the aforementioned wands.

Planar Adaptation - Hey, look, you get to go on planar adventures and the rest of the party doesn't. Nyeh nyeh nyeh-nyeh NYAH NYAH! ... too bad you don't get Plane Shift until next level, but hey. You're like Starfire or a reverse Mr. T or some shit.

Planar Ally, Lesser - FYI Pathfinder stapled on a bunch of new Planar Ally rule chaff that made an already marginal spell pretty much impossible to use. I'd only use this line of spells through Shades -- and only Shades, because the Planar Ally line is a fucking cleric spell.

Poison - This spell was already marginal in 3.5E D&D in that it didn't generate enough constitution damage to kill creatures you cared about over a reasonable time frame. In addition to the fact that it was a fortitude save and a poison. Pathfinder just made it worse by lowering the ceiling and spreading it out. Goddamn it...

Protection from Energy, Communal - Another badass spell that will pull your ass out of the fryer when you're fighting dragons and huge fire elementals and shit. The damage absorption limit is a real shitsucker, but it can be stacked atop of resist energy. Sadly not the other way around.

Shield of Dawn - It's a pretty large fucking chunk of damage if you're fighting against a horde and they don't have juicier targets. Unfortunately, that's only true in a best-case scenario. Even in an above-average case scenario (say, you have another frontliner, there aren't many ranged attackers, and you have a fairly strong zone of control) it's just not very good. If these kinds of situations DO come up grab Greater Stunning Barrier instead. Pass.

Spiritual Ally - It's a minor upgrade to Spiritual Weapon, meaning that it still SUCKS ANUS.

Spit Venom - If you want to blind someone cast Blindness/Deafness. If you want to poison someone cast poison. Blam this piece of garbage.

Summon Monster IV - This is when the summon monster list starts to get really good. However, unless you have a killer app for the spell (such as the Void domain + Supreme Summons line) I'd say to hold your horses until the next level.

Terrible Remorse - Even with the intepretation that the creature hitting itself with an unarmed strike loses their standard action for the round, it's marginal at best. And that's really stretching out the inerperetation, too. A RAW/RAI makes it even worse.

Ward Shield - If you absolutely must have spell resistance this is the first occasion when you can really get it. And hell, you can even target other people with it. Unfortunately, it comes with a built-in 'argue with the DM' clause (can you interpose a shield with a targeted charm person?) and while Spell Resistance is a bigger deal for PCs than NPCs I don't really consider this a good use of a 4th-level spell, let alone a 4th-level spell slot.

Water Walk, Communal - I've had this spell come up a few times. Such as lava pits. Or pirate adventures. Or ice palaces. You can probably get by with just having this on a scroll and replacing it between adventures, but still. Arcane Bond.

5th-level Cleric Spells

Air Walk, Communal - The communal lines of spells are very, very good in Pathfinder. I swear by Communal Resist Energy. Communal Air Walk is one of those spells that are total lifesavers in situations that require it (like fighting a pack of giant scorpions in a goat pasture) but it can be a total clunker in some situations. Normally this isn't a big deal because as you gain levels you as a cleric can afford to reserve some spell slots for situational spells -- but by the time this is an option everyone should have easy-access flight anyway. It's still a nice spell to have for escort missions and summons. A prime candidate for Arcane Bond.

Ancestral Memory - This is your 'humiliate the bard' spell. I mean, more than the typical amount of humiliation. It's one thing to outdamage the rogue, it's another to deal more sneak attack damage than the rogue. If you catch my drift. It's also really flavorful, too, because it retcons in an ancestor to the current plotline.

Astral Projection, Lesser - Heavily nerfed in Pathfinder, which is probably for the best. It's still an acceptable downtime/exploration spell for the Material Plane, even given the 1000 gp price tag. Or at least it would be if the rules for Astral Projection didn't have a huge fucking hole in them. Can you hide in objects? How much noise do you make? Etc. I wouldn't bother.

Breath of Life - Once you get to around level 11 or so, you should keep this spell prepared at all times. Hell, it's not a bad idea to keep this spell prepared starting at level 9. It's a bit difficult to use properly (in that you'll end up tethered within walking distance of the other party members) and will definitely require some coordination. But it's awesome when you can set it up right.

Break Enchantment - You'll probably only need this spell on demand like once a campaign -- but it's a total gamechanger. The best use for this spell is to tag team with the party druid for easy resurrections.

Caustic Blood - If you're playing a Melee Cleric this spell does stupid amounts of damage. The problem isn't that this spell isn't good, it's more that you have better options.

Commune - It's by no means a bad spell, but since you have Ancestral Memory why bother with it? It's a nice fallback spell if your DM gets pissy about your long line of ancestors having adventures suspiciously similar to the ones you're going on.

Constricting Coil - For some bizarre reason 3E D&D decided that clerics should get hold person but not hold monster. This spell steps right in and fixes that.

Disrupting Weapon - Did someone say Prayer Beads of Karma? 'cuz I think someone just said Prayer Beads of Karma.

Forbid Action, Greater - Greater Command isn't totally awful, but why settle for a handful of stale Hershey's Kisses when you have an invitation to Willie Wonka's Chocolate Factory? Greater Forbid Action is face-rockingly, room-lockingly powerful. Even if you're not a dedicated blaster cleric you should strongly consider prepping this spell.

Holy/Unholy Ice - At first, it might just come off as a cut-rate Wall of Stone, which you also get at this level. But Wall of Ice gives out a lot more ice. Still, the 'creatures next to it can disrupt it with a reflex save' often means that you'll end up using more material than you would have for wall of stone. You could also use it to deal 1d6+2 * caster level damage if you're lazy and don't mind making a fuckton of rolls. I'd say skip it.

Siphon Magic - This spell is generally useless and overpriced EXCEPT when you're engaged in buff circle-jerking with another caster. Then it becomes an indispensible asset for teleport ambushes. That's the Pathfinder Touch(tm) for you.

Spellcasting Contract - An OMG awesome spell. Break the action economy AND get a big, always-on, stackable bonus while doing it? Gimme that shit if you know what's good for you. The spell is even nice enough to provide a 'get out of skeevy moral consequences/sucking Asmodeus's dick free' clause for it. This spell and spells like it are a very strong argument for grabbing a familiar, though they also work pretty good as fighter butthurt ointment.

Spell Immunity, Communal - Like most of the communal line, Communal Spell Immunity turns a marginal spell into something that can carry the whole party. It's not good enough that you'll want to run around with it prepared, but it's another prime candidate for Arcane Bond.

Summon Monster V - Summon 1d3 Celestial/Fiendish/Whatever Tigers. You'll hit the enemy force so hard that you'll knock their testicles right through their skulls. There are in fact a lot of things that you can do with summons, enough so that specializing in them in Pathfinder isn't a half-bad choice. But that's beyond the scope of the guide. I'm just mentioning this spell because the potential damage is obscene enough to make your fighters throw down their weapons and roll up full spellcasters.

Wall of Blindness/Deafness - Meh. I have Greater Forbid Action and Wall of Stone. It's a good spell, but level 9 is about when the monsters with blindsense and blindsight start showing up in force and it just doesn't have good long-term value.

6th-level Cleric spells

Animate Objects - Pathfinder changed this spell from a stupid pet trick to something ridiculous. Read up on Building And Modifying Constructs to see what you can do with it.

Banishment - See Dismissal. However, it's actually quite a lot of HD for this spell. Outsiders tend to have low HD for their CR, too, so this can be your 'ha ha, I win the encounter with just one spell' spell if you expect outsiders. Yet another reason to prep Arcane Bond.

Bloodsworn Retribution - Supremely awesome spell for cleric weapon users or any kind of cleric who is careful with their wording. +5 morale bonus to attacks, checks, and saves? Yes, please. Hell, even if your DM overrules you you can just cast it again. It's even better when paired with the courageous weapon property.

Chains of Light - You get a turbo-charged Hold Monster that A.) gets around that Mind-Affecting crap, B.) targets reflex, and C.) throws in a Dimensional Anchor to boot. Paraphrasing FrankTrollman on the Nifty Message Board a decade ago: Good will always triumph, because Evil's tjeese is small and weak.

Cold Ice Strike - Useless piece of crap, swift action or no. If you want to dish out hp damage with your spells then learn to love summons or buffs.

Create Undead - Unlike Animate Dead, which was and can still be a total gamechanger (yes, I would like a fast zombie wyvern) Create Undead is kind of pants. Clerics don't natively command undead in Pathfinder and the undead you can create through this spell suffer through a really bad CR gap. Pathfinder's list of shit you can use with Animate Dead is impressively long but what you can actually get isn't very impressive. Pass.

Dispel Magic, Greater - Pathfinder gave Dispel Magic a badly needed buff which in turn kind of made this spell kind of pants in the transition. No one really uses Dispel Magic in combat, not even against enemy summoners. Dispel Magic has a much longer shelf life and is level 3, so you'll be using that. Not this.

Eaglesoul - The effects aren't huge, but they're better than nothing and they last for an hour/level. The big problems with this spell is that A.) it's not very good for neutral, let alone evil spellcasters and B.) you need to keep recasting this spell if you have a long workday. Use it if you're a really high level cleric with Maj-stats, otherwise you can live without it.

Elemental Assessor - 8d6 damage the first round and then 4d6 for the next 1d4 rounds? Go fuck yourself, Pathfinder.

Plague Storm - It's like Fog Cloud but you get to package with a free Contagion spell, too. It'd see a lot more use if it was level 5 or if it was like Solid Fog, but diseases don't do a lot of ability damage and they target Fortitude. Still, it's sort of like having Glitterdust again if you pick Blinding Sickness. Feh.

Mass Planar Adaptation - I have no fucking idea why Pathfinder made travelling the planes so difficult this edition. Still, if you want to go on fire or water adventures this spell's got your back.

Summon Monster VI - Summon Monster V and VI are the relative highlights of the Summon Monster line. The utility at this level is impressive; you got succubi/lilliend azata for mind control, 1d3 bralani azatas if you want to blast for a maximum of 42d6 damage, 1d4+1 celestial tigers if you want to put Da Vane in his place, and fiendish dire bears if someone wants to run a game of Apocalypse World.

Word of Recall - This spell cracks me up. Okay, you get it at caster level 11... you get to transport 3 other people when you cast it... the median size of a D&D party is five people... sucks to be you! In all seriousness, though, it's a servicable panic button spell if you can take care of the logistical issues (the wizard can away his own damn self and this spell is a great way of telling that useless cocksucker fighter that it's time to get a real character) and an especially juicy prawn shrimp to throw on the Arcane Bond barbie.

[ishy]

Regarding the various character optimization guides for Pathfinder, I'm absolutely amazed by how little people seem to regard the Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline feat for Arcane Bond. If there is one feat chain that is damn near an auto-include for any full spellcaster, it's that one. That one should be rated gold. Not sky blue, gold. It has saved my bacon hardcore and made my life much easier going forward as a cleric.

Probably because of rule negative two.
A good deal of Paizo forumites believe Arcane Bond through Arcane Heritage requires spells known mechanic and clerics don't have 'spells known', thus it doesn't do anything for them.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Holy Christ, I had no idea you could take Eldritch Heritage if you weren't a sorcerer... That runs from neat (Aladdin can be a rogue and have a monkey familiar) to pretty awesome (anyone with buff spells can benefit from that)

I am glad I read this thread today.

[Axebird]

Probably because of rule negative two.
A good deal of Paizo forumites believe Arcane Bond through Arcane Heritage requires spells known mechanic and clerics don't have 'spells known', thus it doesn't do anything for them.

A claim that is utterly unconvincing because wizards don't have "spells known" either, and it's clearly just a case of sloppy wording and undefined terms. But what else is new for the Paizo forums?

[ishy]

Probably because of rule negative two.
A good deal of Paizo forumites believe Arcane Bond through Arcane Heritage requires spells known mechanic and clerics don't have 'spells known', thus it doesn't do anything for them.

A claim that is utterly unconvincing because wizards don't have "spells known" either, and it's clearly just a case of sloppy wording and undefined terms. But what else is new for the Paizo forums?

The Arcane Bond you get through Arcane Heritage is worded differently than the wizard one.

Spit Venom - If you want to blind someone cast Blindness/Deafness. If you want to poison someone cast poison. Blam this piece of garbage.

The blind from spit venom does not allow a save though.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Looking through 3.5E and Pathfinder material, I'm surprised at how consistent the editions are in its separation of spell-list and spells-known. Okay, suggestion redacted.

[Axebird]

Yeah. I was off base. I assumed they'd be the same without actually looking it up.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Like I said, what I'm most surprised by is how completely consistent Pathfinder is about the wording. I expected to find at least a couple of occasions in which they screwed up the wording, but no. Spell list is, as far as I can see, always kept different from spells known.

Does... does this mean that I've been outsmarted by the Pathfinder developers?!

[Rawbeard]

It's probably blind luck, don't feel bad about it.

On to more pressing matters, what are the details on the Cleric Monk?

[mean_liar]

If I can guess...

Sacred Fist Warpriest 1 allows Flurry in armor and with monk weapons. Use that to transition to Cleric X and Flurry with Gauntlets.

Just because I like melee I'm in a PF game where the build is Warpriest 1/Fighter (unarmed) 1/Monk (MoMS + Kata Master) to have Swashbuckling Panache, Snake Style, Combat Reflexes, and a Kusurigama, collectively giving a lot of off-turn AoO opportunities as I generally sit back and cast... but that's three non-caster levels.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I've never seen an actual Cleric Monk in the field -- it's all theoretical at this point -- but they IMO would look like this.

1.) First, a lot of this advice could apply to warpriests but then it gets clobbered in such a way that there's no reason to pick warpriest. If you're using Gifts of the Deep then flurry of blows is worthless to you. Sacred Weapon suffers from action clog when used with Holy Ice Weapon. However, since a lot of the investment comes from feats, magic items, and spells there's no reason why you couldn't make this build work if you were an oracle or shaman. Shamans have a moderately worse spell list than clerics (despite getting some serious win spells that clerics don't) but the bonus metamagic and item creation feat is extraordinarily helpful. Oracles put you a spell level behind and require investment in Charisma instead of Wisdom but they get access to some killer class features.

2.) For race, you have a handful of choices. A human/half-elf/half-orc that grabs the racial heritage: Sahugin feat so that they can use the Gifts of the Deep spell or a Samsaran that poaches spells off of the inquisitor/list. If you really want to swing Oracle then a half-elf Oracle can grab Racial Heritage: Sahugin along with taking Warsighted + Ancient Lorekeeper. Oracles can also make use of Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline: Arcane Bond but we're talking about some serious feat clog. If you're going oracle or humanish shaman you keep picking the extra spell level-1 known option for every level up -- it really helps.

3.) Grab the Improved Unarmed Strike feat by grabbing a wayfinder plus the appropriate ioun stone sometime. They're dirt cheap and you should easily be able to afford one.

4a.) Invest in the TWFing chain. This is the most painful thing about making a cleric monk since it's a substantial feat investment. If you're happy about your unarmed attack rate.

4b.) Invest in the Snake Style + Improved Trip + Vicious Stomp chain. You get a boatload of extra attacks. Unfortunately, it's a total hog on your feats.

4c.) Do 4a and 4b. You're not going to be able to complete this feat chain for a long time unless you're a Warsighted Oracle and/or abusing the ring of revelation for Stone Stability. Clerics will additionally have to give up Craft Wondrous Item (doable if you have other full spellcasters in the party, but someone NEEDS to have this feat) and Quicken Spell (which sucks anus after level 11).

5.) If you're a cleric, pick up the plant domain or the Strength (fist) domain. If you don't give a flying fuck about domains (you should, because they're awesome) then you can also pick up the Crusader archetype and enjoy an extra +7 bonus to damage for no real reason.

6.) If you're a shaman, you may want to look into Speaker for the Past. The ancestor and time revelations have some serious goodies in it. This will also let you use the ring of revelation, which rules. Stone Stability is a great ability to go along with the Snake Style chain.

7.) The linchpin of your build is Holy Ice Weapon. This is normally a pretty marginal spell, along the lines of Flame Blade, but there are two kinds of casters that can really push this spell to its limits: Cleric Archers (who can get around the minute duration of no enhancement bonus by GMWing arrows) and Cleric Monks (who can equip various stupid unarmed attack enhancing items like bodywraps, Amulets of Mighty Fists, 1d6 damage gloves, the brawling enchantment, and also benefit from GMW or Greater Magic Fang if your DM is getting pissy). It's a colossal damage bonus in the vein of Spikes. Unlike spikes though, it needs a bit more care. It's only a minute/level, so you'll strongly want to think about metamagic reducers + quicken spells unless you're at really high level.

8.) Keep your eye out for various stupid spells to help you out. Defending Bone, Spellcasting Contract (especially if you have a familiar or animal companion or some shit), and Bloodsworn Retribution will push your damage and defense into the stratosphere. If you can swing a contingency spell -- totally doable with certain Shamans and Oracles -- all the better because you can put divine power in there.