Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[mean_liar]

5.) If you're a cleric, pick up the plant domain or the Strength (fist) domain. If you don't give a flying fuck about domains (you should, because they're awesome) then you can also pick up the Crusader archetype and enjoy an extra +7 bonus to damage for no real reason.

I don't get this part.

[Username17]

5.) If you're a cleric, pick up the plant domain or the Strength (fist) domain. If you don't give a flying fuck about domains (you should, because they're awesome) then you can also pick up the Crusader archetype and enjoy an extra +7 bonus to damage for no real reason.

I don't get this part.

Plant Domain in Pathfinder is bizarrely a thing that turns you into Groot. You pop temporary thorns out of your body as a free action in the middle of combat and do extra damage for great justice.

I don't get the reference to Crusaders, since as far as I can tell they exchange spellcasting for fighter feats. I'm certain that there's some shenanigans to be had with groups of Crusaders and their ability to share out personal buffs for 2 spells per group, but it doesn't seem amazingly helpful for personally punching people. Assuming Lago isn't talking out of his ass, I'm guessing that you can use those incredibly shitty feats to qualify for something actually good. I mean, Weapon Specialization is horribad, but it's not something Clerics normally get and if there's something that requires that as a prereq you might have a combo there or something.

-Username17

[name_here]

Well, if you don't need all of the spells a normal cleric can cast for your buffing plans, the fighter feats are free damage.

[Axebird]

If you're going to use unarmed strikes being focused on one weapon isn't as much of a raw deal as it is for everyone else, I guess, though it's still not great. Unless there's something I'm missing that doesn't really seem worth losing spells per day and a domain, though.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I don't recommend Crusader. I do know that non-cleric monks use it as an option for snagging a few feats -- heavy armor proficiency, weapon focus for a prerequisite (you're interested in Feral Weapon training, depending on how much you want to use Gifts of the Deep and Monstrous Appendage), weapon proficiency, and tower shield proficiency. I don't recommend that either because, again, Pathfinder domains are fucking awesome esp. if you're running a blaster cleric. But people do love their number penises.

[Mask_De_H]

So I'm gearing up for a high level game and I'm wondering if there's anything that can swing with an Arcanist. Sure, you're technically down a level, but between the exploits and making up for prepared spells with Expanded Arcana you're in a pretty nice spot. They also get fuck you versions of every arcane caster's shtick as archetypes.

I'd assume that Shamans, Cleric Archers and Wizards are also on the level. Maybe Witches.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Be an Exploiter Wizard instead of an Arcanist. The only things Arcanists have on wizards is the ability to spontaneously cast a number of spells on the fly -- but you can grab Quick Study as an exploit and then tell the Arcanist to go fuck himself.

If you're gearing up for a high level game and really, really MUST be able to cast in a versatile fashion without having to rely on scrolls, wands, or your arcane bond there's also the Collegiate Arcanist. Hell, you can even do both of the above if you want.

I can only recommend picking Arcanist if you're doing something weird like going Furry Cosplayer Arcanist to cast a bunch of transmutation spells on your buddies.

[Archmage Joda]

So, since you gave a good rundown on the cleric monk, lago, would you be so kind as to do the same for the "blaster cleric"?

[Lago PARANOIA]

What? Blaster cleric is even easier. You just pick good spells and good domains. The Pathfinder Advanced Class Guide published the Ecclesitheurge archetype and if you don't mind tanking your AC it does all of that Arcane Bond crap I mentioned earlier.

If you really want to summon, there's Sacred Summons + Summon Good/Neutral Monster + Superior Summons line. If you want to king in your channel energy ability during combat for moar battlefield control, Read this guide. There's the Veiled Illusionist PrC if you want to cast wizard illusion spells and get some other goodies.

[Mask_De_H]

Yeah, I could figure out blaster cleric, but I didn't know about that Wizard archetype or that PrC. Nab Quick Study, Familiar and Potent Magic first, I'm guessing. Since I'm not third level, the spell hit doesn't hurt so bad but is there really nothing else to sell the Arcanist outside of Brown Furry Transmuter?

With Collegiate Wizard, you just pick a set of useful spells to master and have them as full-rounders at 9th/sub them out at 4th?

[Archmage Joda]

I was hoping more for some examples of the good spells and domains, or what if any PrCs are good besides veiled illusionist. I remember you saying before that Charm, Chaos, Darkness, and Void as good ones. Maybe also other good feats to take besides summoning stuff?

[Lago PARANOIA]

There are no good cleric PrCs besides Veiled Illusionist. ... well, Hellknight Enforcer is an okay choice if you're starting out at high level, but it's a slog to actually level through. Remember, in Pathfinder going into a PrC causes you to lose out on a favored class bonus. So what would normally be a 'spin your wheels in place' PrC like the Loremaster and Divine Scion become suboptimal crap. Even I had to hesitate to recommend the Collegiate Arcanist because you lose out on a shitload of free wizard spells.

With Collegiate Wizard, you just pick a set of useful spells to master and have them as full-rounders at 9th/sub them out at 4th?

Yes. But! And this is a pretty big but: Collegiate Wizard and every wizard PrC suffers from a ridiculous Pathfinder ruling that wizards who take PrCs don't get the free spells in their spellbook per level. Unless you're willing to burn a lot of money on scrolls/spellbook copying a PrC is kind of out of the question. I mean, spend 4500+ gp to copy a single 7th level spell into your spellbook? Uggggh. Wizards are less money intensive than other classes to get rolling but it's not like they don't need pearls of power and necromancy staves and shit.

It's an option if you really, REALLY need to have spell versatility, but ehn. I've rarely had the problem where I've really needed to cast more than two spells other than what I've had prepared this freaking round once I got past level 7. Sure, I've had plenty of occasions where I've been 'dammit, I don't have dispel magic, let's take a break for tonight' but not often but what Quick Study wouldn't be sufficient for.

[TOZ]

Fuck wooden fists. Go Growth Subdomain and get swift action Enlarge Person on demand.

[Lago PARANOIA]

As far as domains go, here's my list. If a subdomain is in parentheses that means you want to select that subdomain. If a subdomain is in brackets that means that the option is only worth picking if you're using the subdomain. If there's no subdomain, you want to use the plain ol' domain.

• Animal: Gives you an animal companion, which is actually very useful in Pathfinder because they're tougher and can self-select feats. There are also some animal companion feats that are just downright boss such as Evolved Companion and Monstrous Mount.
• Artifice (Construct): You get minor creation, fabricate, major creation, limited wish, and polymorph any object. You also get to use animate objects at level 8.
• Chaos [Whimsy]: In addition to giving you Hideous Laughter and Good Hope, all of your +morale bonus spells get a free Extend Spell packaged on it. Great domain in conjunction with a Courageous Weapon, use a third-level spell slot + karma beads at level 12 to give people 24 minutes of +4 morale bonuses to attack, saves, skills, and weapon damage rolls. Go fuck yourself, bard.
• Charm: The spell list is fucking brutal. You get all of the best spells of a wizard enchanter EXCEPT for mass suggestion. You also get to use Charm Person as a SU ability as a swift action at 8th level. This was one of my top picks many pages ago for a reason.
• Community [Cooperation]: Letting other people use your saving throw for an AoE is badass as fuck, because clerics have the best will saving throws and very good fortitude saving throws. You also get the coordinated effort spell, which with certain teamwork feats is so strong (Broken Wing/Wounded Paw gambit + Paired Opportunist) that this is one of the best domains for a melee cleric despite not having any melee options! Read up on teamwork feats plus animal companions to see how staggeringly effective this tactic and thus spell can be.
• Darkness (Night): This is another all-around awesome domain. You get: Blind-Fight, the ability to see through supernatural darkness (standard action, sadly), standard action invisibility usable for a few rounds several times a day, and a great spell list: first level sleep, second level blind/deafness, shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, shades, and shadow walk. Awwww yeah, boi.
• Destruction [Rage]: I haven't gone over the Pathfinder wiki with a fine tooth comb yet, but I'm sure that there's some way to abuse the fact that your cleric has minor access to rage powers. If there isn't then consider this suggestion withdrawn because rage really has the potential to fuck up your cleric's potential and the spell and power list isn't very good.
• Earth [Caverns]: Oh, hello there, pit line of spells. I love you very much. Tunnel Runner is an absolutely dominating domain ability if you regularly adventure underground. And I'll never say 'no' to a wall of stone in a domain spell slot.
• Evil [Cannibalism]: If your DM will let you cannibalize summons this can work out pretty okay as an ambushing spell. Requires a lot of 'lol I'm okay despite picking an evil domain' special pleading and sitch reading, though. But the DC bonus is pretty damn huge.
• Fire [Ash]: It's like having a Stinking Cloud that blinds instead of nauseates but is a supernatural ability. If you have an Amulet of the Spirits (Flame) to give foes swift-action no-save fire vulnerability a lot of the fire domain spells (cough cough fire seeds) can be set up to do stupid amounts of damage if that's what you care about.
• Glory (Heroism): In addition to giving you swift action group heroism at level 8, you also charisma check harder than anyone has ever charisma checked. Your planar binding wizard will love you. Or, hell, you can planar bind your own damn self if you're a Void cleric.
• Freedom / Freedom (Revolution): This is unusual because both of the Freedom domain's granted abilities are not only life-saving but potentially TPK-avoiding. However, if you're in one of those artsy-fartsy campaigns where people are rolling diplomacy checks five times a day then the Revolution ability has your back. Me, I'd prefer picking up the Trickery (Innuendo) domain instead if you're going to do that unless you were being god-blocked. The first level ability is good, but Trickery (Innuendo) is a cavalcade of rad.
• Luck / Luck (Fate) / (Imagination): My favorite is the Luck (Imagination) one. You get Silent, Minor, and Major Image which patches up some of the biggest spellcasting holes in the domain. Unfortunately, it replaces the extremely helpful Good Fortune ability (reroll as an immediate action 1/day per 6 levels) with a much more situational 15' radius fascinate. The Fate subdomain ability at level 8 allows you to force other people to make rerolls (no save) but you only get a use for level 8, 14, and 20.
• Nobility: Eh, I won't say no to a free Leadership feat. The spells and special abilities of this domain and the subdomains are kind of naff, though.
• Plant/Plant (Growth): If you're running a low-level campaign, enlarge person + a 1 round swift action enlarge will go a very long way if you're running a reach build. If you're running a cleric monk build that stretches past the middle levels, you get a pretty large damage bonus and a big punishment for melee types to hit you. And in both cases having barkskin and entangle gives you what you crave.
• Repose: If you're a Cleric Monk (or, shit, just someone with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat), you can use Gentle Rest with Domain Strike/Conductive property to put arbitrarily strong people to sleep with no save.
• Scalykind / Scalykind (Saurian): This is an alternative to grabbing the animal domain if you want an animal companion. I think the animal domain is better, but, ehn.
• Strength [Fist]: If you're running a Cleric Monk this is an alternative to grabbing the Plant domain. I think the Plant domain has a better spell list, but people get pretty pissy about deities and domain selection and this is a nice way to tell those basketweavers to go suck on their grandma's polyps.
• Sun: There's actually no reason to pick the Sun domain in Pathfinder. I'm just mentioning this because every other good domain in 3.5E D&D (trickery, travel, luck, etc.) that has a Pathfinder counterpart is at least somewhat usable. This is a domain that went from being the trump card of pre-blasphemy blaster clerics to a completely useless one. How the mighty have fallen.
• Travel (Trade): Now that I'm done being depressed about the emasculation of the Sun domain, let's move to something more uplifting. Like how Pathfinder made an already awesome domain awesomer. Just look at that fucking juicy-ass domain listing! Fly, Dimension Door, Overland Flight, Greater Teleport as domain spells, +10 movement speed, +half cleric level bonus to Diplomacy/Sense Motive/Bluff, and cleric level * 10 total feet of teleportation per day to be used in 5' increments as a move action. Makes me want to jizz in my pants.
• Trickery (Innuendo): I've maintained that Travel + Trickery is generically the best combination of domains to pick for core 3E D&D. The spell lists cover each others' gaps and they give great domain abilities. And unlike a lot of combinations I found that it was a pretty common one for deities in homebrew or even campaign settings. Well, if these two were peanut butter and chocolate in 3E D&D they're steak and lobster in Pathfinder. You get: A single image Mirror Image as a move action (more helpful at low level than you think!); rerolls for Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate; Invisibility, Suggestion, Mass Suggestion, Mass Invisibility, Screen, and Time Stop.
  
  That said, Trickery (Greed) also has a pretty good ability, too; you get to change the target of spells with a range greater than touch to you as an immediate action if you make an initially difficult but increasingly easy caster level check. The game wants you to use it to plunder buffs but there's nothing stopping you from, say, redirecting Wail of the Banshee or Confusion from a party member to yourself.
• Void / Void (Dark Tapestry): If you're a summoning cleric you'll really appreciate It Came From Beyond from the Dark Tapestry subdomain; it's like having a double-shot of Augment Summoning and honestly it's really needed if you plan to use the higher-level summons thanks to the CR gap. However, it also replaces two MAJOR AWESOME spells (fly and overland flight) with I CAN ALREADY CAST THIS D00D (SM2 and SM5) spells.
  
  In either case, the real money of this domain is the ability to cast planar binding and Part the Veil. Part the Veil allows you to layer on a Confusion effect to any single-target spell with a will saving throw for reduced effect. Aside from being badly needed extra-insurance (despite the fact that it can conflict with stuff like Suggestion if you're not careful) confusion also makes it very hard for people to take advantage of the 'get out of bad effect by spending an action' clause certain spells have. Like Hold Person.
• War (Tactics): Hey, look at that, an initiative reroll. And you get a new combat feat as a swift action for a certain number of rounds per day. Ain't nothing wrong with that; people took the War domain in 3.5E D&D for less. Well, they didn't have free weapon proficiency back then, but still.
• Water [Flotsam]: Crazy-awesome domain power. Let's just copy-paste the description; you wouldn't believe me if I told you.
  Sift (Su)
  
  At 6th level, once per day you can reach into water as a standard action and pull out an object with a maximum gp value of up to 50 gp × your cleric level.
  
  This object always has the broken condition upon being withdrawn from the water. The water you reach into must be at least deep enough to fully immerse yourself in it. At 12th level, objects you retrieve are not broken. At 20th level, you can retrieve objects worth up to 5,000 gp. If retrieving an object that would not normally float, assume it rests on top of or is entwined with debris that does float. Objects retrieved in this manner disappear after 24 hours, if not already used up or otherwise destroyed before then.

There are also some Druid domains that you might want to look at, too. Note that by a strict reading of Pathfinder rules you can't take a Druid domain AND a subdomain at the same time. So... keep it in mind.

• Crocodile: Surprisingly decent domain that passes out sneak attack (it's weak sneak attack, though, so don't get too excited), a familiar, and legend lore a couple levels before most classes get to cast it. Weird.
• Eagle: All right, now we're cooking. You get swift action bonuses to ranged attacks or perception checks, a familiar, and evasion/improved evasion while you're flying. This domain also passes out fly and overland flight. Probably the best domain out of the druid domains and in fact pretty competitive with 'regular' domains.
• Monkey: Took the trap finding trait and want to really make the rogue feel like a worthless shit? Pick this domain. Not very good compared to other domains, but bitch-slapping the BMX Bandit a couple of times by showing that your Angel Summoner can also ride a bike better than him is good for establishing intraparty dominance.
• Wolf: Playing a Cleric Monk and wanting to get in on that sweet trip action? Look no further than this. You get a free action +wis bonus to flanking for several rounds a day OR the ability to flank more easily out of the same pool. The spells are somewhat nifty, too, what with giving you hour-long scent, favored enemy, and the ability to trip as a swift action.
• Plains: Mostly crap, but you get Haste and Pounce. Pounce rocks the casbah, even in Pathfinder, so it's worth not getting anything else.

I see no reason to grab an Inquisition for any reason. Granted, some of the bonuses can be very, very good (dominate as a SU and use your wisdom bonus in place of charisma for certain skills) but it's not worth trading out on spells known knowing more domain spells. It'd be an okay bargain in core 3.5E D&D when people picked the War and Luck domains solely on the strength of their domain ability but in Pathfinder you can have your cake and eat it, too.

[Axebird]

The Animal (Feather) subdomain is pretty sweet as well. You trade speaking with animals stacks-with-everything 1/2 level bonus to Perception and a +2 bonus to initiative in fights where you were able to act in the surprise round. Plus, hold animal, dominate animal, and antilife shell get traded up to feather fall, fly, and mass fly. You still get the animal companion. Note that Boon Companion can get your effective druid level up to your character level.

Destruction (Rage) does indeed have some decent tricks for you to steal from barbarians. No Escape lets you double move as an immediate action if someone withdraws from you to try and avoid your overbuffed full attack (1/rage). Reckless Abandon lets you take a penalty to AC for a bonus to hit. Strength Surge for an up to +10 Fuck Off bonus on a CMB check or CMD against one enemy (1/rage). Grabbing immunity to fatigue somehow lets you turn 1/rage abilities into at-wills, since leaving and entering a rage are both free actions.

Holy shit @Flotsam. That's hilarious. Just carry a bathtub in your bag of holding and keep create water prepared so you can pull whatever scroll you need out of your ass once a day.[/i]

[TiaC]

Holy shit @Flotsam. That's hilarious. Just carry a bathtub in your bag of holding and keep create water prepared so you can pull whatever scroll you need out of your ass once a day.[/i]

Even better, you can stick multiple spells on one scroll to fill your gold limit.

[Archmage Joda]

so, which would typically be a better/more rewarding approach to clericing, being a beatstick cleric, a blaster cleric, or would it be decent to try to be both?

Also, any fluff ideas for justifying a godless cleric, in case of a GM who is finicky about the religious part of cleric?

[magnuskn]

I see no reason to grab an Inquisition for any reason. Granted, some of the bonuses can be very, very good (dominate as a SU and use your wisdom bonus in place of charisma for certain skills) but it's not worth trading out on spells known. It'd be an okay bargain in core 3.5E D&D when people picked the War and Luck domains solely on the strength of their domain ability but in Pathfinder you can have your cake and eat it, too.

You don't get additional spells known if you grab a domain as an Inquisitor.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Blaster clerics tend to be stronger. There are situations and party setups where you would want a beatdown cleric instead and unlike a lot of DPR builds a beatdown cleric can blast satisfactorily when the occasion calls for it, but all-in-all blaster clerics perform better. Especially since you can get a blaster cleric up and running from level 1 while a beatdown cleric built for the long haul (meaning that instead of multiclassing and grabbing feats better replicated with spells you just suffer through the low levels) doesn't start to blossom until around level 5. However, you can play a beatdown cleric as a blaster cleric until your build synthesizes and still be a fully functioning member of the party. Especially if you have a good casting domain.

If you want to play a godless cleric my go-to excuse is playing an ancestor spirit cleric or a pantheist cleric. Feel free to rip off shit from Shinto and Hinduism. Or downplay it if your DM is anticlerical in general.

[TOZ]

Lago, have you seen the Defense subdomain?

[Krusk]

DND's tharzidun or any sort of absent diety should work. "Yeah I've got a god. Someone locked him up years ago and he hasn't said anything new since. So we mostly just do what we want and he seems cool with it".

I've also used pantheonic to just say "there is some god who wants it, so ill do it for him" it being whatever I feel like fits my PC.

[Lago PARANOIA]

@Toz: I want to like the defense domain because, you know, a shield that scales to caster level but I'm just not sure how to get around the action clog. I suppose you could just load up on pearls of power and/or rods of lesser extend and just count the occasions where you missed the timing on your 1 min/level spell as a sunk cost.

What do you, the viewer at home think?

[Axebird]

1st level pearls of power end up being trivially cheap, and getting shield on your spell list is really sweet for a two handed beatstick cleric (a blaster can just wear a shield). It's not so important at low levels unless you need an oh-shit button when a big tough martially powerful enemy enters the field and you don't have a better way to deal with them, but later on between the scaling duration and pearls you can have it up for basically every fight.

You also steal barkskin off the druid list, which can save you an item slot on wearing an amulet, especially combined with a lesser extend rod and/or a 2nd level pearl.

Deflection isn't amazing, but it is hilarious, especially since you're likely going to have a better AC than a wizard when you get rolling.

The Deflection aura is kinda ass, past levels 2-4, but it's really not why you're here. And the scaling resistance bonus scales pretty slowly, but eventually negates the need to wear a cloak of resistance (opening another slot).

Overall, I think it's pretty solid. Not a must have or crazy strong, but a good choice.

[Archmage Joda]

So, I get now how to make a beatstick cleric, and how to make a caster cleric. But how would you go about making a cleric that does both well? Like, which combination of domains (I was thinking one castery domain like Void, Charm, or Darkness (Night), and one beatstick domain) and feat progression would make the idea work?

[Mask_De_H]

Minor thing Lago, you mean the Revelry subdomain of Chaos. Whimsy gives you another Hideous Laughter effect. You also probably want Nobility for the Rulership variant channel, depending on what your DM rules for variant channeling.

All this build talk is making me want to play a Cleric because once again they are the master class. What are some neat tricks a Wizard can do besides craft constructs?