Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Bihlbo]

I really like the way 4e handles magic item distro to the players: let them pick the loot. It's artificial and goofy as all crap, but it's sooooo much more fun than going on shopping trips.

In the PF game I'm in right now the GM decided to use those fancy random charts. He rolls a +2 huge throwing sap and a suit of hide armor that is totally capped on abilities (totals a +10, and we're level 8) - none of which are worth having for anyone in our group. And while these utterly useless items of stupendous monetary value are sweet for the purpose of affording something that isn't laughable, I still don't really see the point in us taking the 20 minutes it took to deal with randomizing garbage.

I love random charts for lesser things, especially consumables. But for items that actually have some value and could potentially add to the power of the group, they're terrible.

Did you read the link "the future will be rulled by bullshit"
So... They're buying the book because of... the cover?
I mean those things you mentioned are essentially formating editing issues. So essentially, take the srd, add lots of pretty pictures and make superficial changes to the rules that are easy to find becaues of the indexing.. viola, you've created a sellable work.
I mean, ultimately they're not buying it because its better or worse than any other system but because it LOOKS better? I find that intellectually insulting, but I can't refute your point w/out more study.
Finally... if the argument is "Who cares, we're out to tell stories" and dm fiat determines everything as you say...

Yeah I did read that, it was awesome!

I didn't mean to imply that the book being awesome is a reason to play PF. What I was responding to was the notion that If the SRD is free, why pay? I think in this case, if you are already playing PF and you have the money to spend, choosing between using the free SRD alone or using the SRD and the book is not as obvious a choice as one might think because the book really is well done. There is a good reason to buy this book if you're already playing. As a point of contrast, back when I played Conan d20, I greatly regretted buying the book because it sucked so much ("spellb.ook" copypasta fail, awful art, no color, etc).

I mentioned "Who cares, we're out to tell stories" only to illustrate why some people would basically read this whole thread and call you all a bunch of tools whose opinions don't matter. Logic bounces off of those people like a level 20 fighter bounces off a level 20 cleric who's cast one spell.

[JonSetanta]

I really like the way 4e handles magic item distro to the players: let them pick the loot. It's artificial and goofy as all crap, but it's sooooo much more fun than going on shopping trips.

There should be a mix of both random and choice IMO.
The "shopping trips" constitute choosing items (spend time, spend cash, get items, no actual shopping done) and the encounter loot is random (relatively speaking... it would be best as thematic to the enemy's use)

[Midnight_v]

I really like the way 4e handles magic item distro to the players: let them pick the loot. It's artificial and goofy as all crap, but it's sooooo much more fun than going on shopping trips.

In the PF game I'm in right now the GM decided to use those fancy random charts. He rolls a +2 huge throwing sap and a suit of hide armor that is totally capped on abilities (totals a +10, and we're level 8) - none of which are worth having for anyone in our group. And while these utterly useless items of stupendous monetary value are sweet for the purpose of affording something that isn't laughable, I still don't really see the point in us taking the 20 minutes it took to deal with randomizing garbage.

I love random charts for lesser things, especially consumables. But for items that actually have some value and could potentially add to the power of the group, they're terrible.

Did you read the link "the future will be rulled by bullshit"
So... They're buying the book because of... the cover?
I mean those things you mentioned are essentially formating editing issues. So essentially, take the srd, add lots of pretty pictures and make superficial changes to the rules that are easy to find becaues of the indexing.. viola, you've created a sellable work.
I mean, ultimately they're not buying it because its better or worse than any other system but because it LOOKS better? I find that intellectually insulting, but I can't refute your point w/out more study.
Finally... if the argument is "Who cares, we're out to tell stories" and dm fiat determines everything as you say...

Yeah I did read that, it was awesome!

I didn't mean to imply that the book being awesome is a reason to play PF. What I was responding to was the notion that If the SRD is free, why pay? I think in this case, if you are already playing PF and you have the money to spend, choosing between using the free SRD alone or using the SRD and the book is not as obvious a choice as one might think because the book really is well done. There is a good reason to buy this book if you're already playing. As a point of contrast, back when I played Conan d20, I greatly regretted buying the book because it sucked so much ("spellb.ook" copypasta fail, awful art, no color, etc).

I mentioned "Who cares, we're out to tell stories" only to illustrate why some people would basically read this whole thread and call you all a bunch of tools whose opinions don't matter. Logic bounces off of those people like a level 20 fighter bounces off a level 20 cleric who's cast one spell.

"Ahh." Minight_v nods in understanding.

[Slade]

I really like the way 4e handles magic item distro to the players: let them pick the loot. It's artificial and goofy as all crap, but it's sooooo much more fun than going on shopping trips.

There should be a mix of both random and choice IMO.
The "shopping trips" constitute choosing items (spend time, spend cash, get items, no actual shopping done) and the encounter loot is random (relatively speaking... it would be best as thematic to the enemy's use)

Yes, but from the chosen loot the DM should make them thematic to enemies useage.

Random is harder because you can get weird stuff like the above +10 ability (+1 armor with +9 abilities) Hide armor.

[hogarth]

It's a pretty ghastly procedure. What you do when you go for some retail therapy is you roll up 4d4 Medium Magic Items (note: a majority of Medium Magic Items are below the catalog threshold), and 3d4 Major Magic Items. Off the chart.

Did 3.5 have table for rolling up available magic items in a city? I seem to recall that they just had a flat percentage chance for having a given item, but frankly I never bothered with those rules so I never did more than skim them.

[Username17]

It's a pretty ghastly procedure. What you do when you go for some retail therapy is you roll up 4d4 Medium Magic Items (note: a majority of Medium Magic Items are below the catalog threshold), and 3d4 Major Magic Items. Off the chart.

Did 3.5 have table for rolling up available magic items in a city? I seem to recall that they just had a flat percentage chance for having a given item, but frankly I never bothered with those rules so I never did more than skim them.

Cities have item price limits, you announce what you want and you have a chance of it being available.

Pathfinder still does exactly that. The change is that the price limits are reduced, but you also get access to a showroom where you roll a bunch of d4s to see how many items are in it and then roll percentile dice a bunch of times to see what specific items are in stock. And those items may or may not be items that are below the price limit of shit you can just get.

he person who said it took 20 minutes to resolve what was available in a shopping trip was likely not exaggerating. Generating random items takes a lot longer than it should.

-Username17

[Bihlbo]

The person who said it took 20 minutes to resolve what was available in a shopping trip was likely not exaggerating. Generating random items takes a lot longer than it should.

I totally agree. Over the years I've made a number of Excel-based random generators to speed things up for our games. A random potion/scroll/etc generator is easy enough and speeds things up to "instantaneous", but the multiple lists for all magic items takes a lot more work because it's nested complexity. It can be done, and if I were motivated I'd look to see if someone's already done it.

[JonSetanta]

Generate your items before the game. Write them down on index cards.

Even if they're not used for specific sessions, save them for the next or later.

[Maj]

Random items in our games were always done after the story part of the session was over (Congrats, you find a pile of crap. You take it with you. We'll deal with it later). Yeah, it took a long time, but the group got a kick out of rolling up items and seeing what crazy came out.

What was even more fun were the semi-in-character conversations about what to do with it.

[Roy]

So, place your bets. Out of 100 randomly generated items, how many do you think would be vendor trash? I'd say 95.

[Maj]

Depends on the characters in the game... Some of the less serious games had a higher usage rate, but on average, I think your assessment of 95% is pretty good. I might even pretend greater optimism and say 90%.

[Roy]

Depends on the characters in the game... Some of the less serious games had a higher usage rate, but on average, I think your assessment of 95% is pretty good. I might even pretend greater optimism and say 90%.

Not really, no. In core at least, stuff in there is either stuff that is useless to everyone, or is generic enough that someone could use it well.

[JonSetanta]

So, place your bets. Out of 100 randomly generated items, how many do you think would be vendor trash? I'd say 95.

Depends on group PC variety.

Low variety, more trash (as everyone dives or fights for the same things)

High variety, less trash.

[Psychic Robot]

He rolls a +2 huge throwing sap and a suit of hide armor that is totally capped on abilities (totals a +10, and we're level 8) - none of which are worth having for anyone in our group. And while these utterly useless items of stupendous monetary value are sweet for the purpose of affording something that isn't laughable, I still don't really see the point in us taking the 20 minutes it took to deal with randomizing garbage.

Strangely enough, that's one of my favorite parts of D&D: the retarded, ridiculous loot you pull off of random monsters. One time, we rolled that a wyvern had 50,000 copper on it. The DM ruled that its digestive track was stuffed full of pennies.

[virgil]

Speaking of loot, I got to skim through one of the Pathfinder adventures called City of Golden Death. It involves a city overwhelmingly filled with treasure, including rivers of molten gold, all created by this Midas-esque artifact. I can't judge the specifics of most of it since I only skimmed, but I can tell you that going through it would be the biggest damn cocktease to players. Apparently none of the gold created by the artifact, or the artifact itself, is allowed to leave the city; instantly transporting itself back inside if anyone tries. There's some real treasure you're allowed to take out, but it's all gold-plated due to prior molten gold floods, so I don't know how anyone's supposed to be able to tell what's "safe" to extract.

It doesn't feel right to do that to players.

[Maxus]

. . .

[Archmage]

Speaking of loot, I got to skim through one of the Pathfinder adventures called City of Golden Death.

Funny to see the two different approaches to this.

Problem: A city of gold would be thematically awesome, but your players will steal the whole thing and turn it into magic swords.

Den solution: Change the rules of the game so that the players can't turn wealth into magic swords, but they can carry off tons of gold for fun in-character pimp action, eliminating the powergamer incentive for looting the place.

Paizo solution: Devise a ham-fisted adventure-specific reason why you can't take any of the gold home so that MC can take sadistic pleasure in denying powergaming players their magic sword shopping spree.

[Slade]

Speaking of loot, I got to skim through one of the Pathfinder adventures called City of Golden Death. It involves a city overwhelmingly filled with treasure, including rivers of molten gold, all created by this Midas-esque artifact. I can't judge the specifics of most of it since I only skimmed, but I can tell you that going through it would be the biggest damn cocktease to players. Apparently none of the gold created by the artifact, or the artifact itself, is allowed to leave the city; instantly transporting itself back inside if anyone tries. There's some real treasure you're allowed to take out, but it's all gold-plated due to prior molten gold floods, so I don't know how anyone's supposed to be able to tell what's "safe" to extract.

It doesn't feel right to do that to players.

How does it affect things if you put it in a bag of holding? Since it is now on another extra dimensional plane.
Even better put it in your heward's handy haversack.

The Pathfinder rules say it deactivates the bag while inside meaning it can't affect the things inside the bag of holding.

Can you destroy the artfact?

Okay, after reading it, only the gold plating is removed: not the items. Granted most of it is junk that is gold plated.
DC 18 Appriase check to see if really junk. Plus, on a time limit.


Even worse treasure destroying traps...
500 lb items that could be sold but unlikely to carry it out.
You do get a free ship (the bad guys ship).

Edit: you can destroy the amulet and thus take the treasure, but than you won't get your reward.

Apparently, Energy attacks do 1/2 damage to objects in Pathfinder. Even Acid/Sonic unlike 3.5.

[Roy]

So, place your bets. Out of 100 randomly generated items, how many do you think would be vendor trash? I'd say 95.

Depends on group PC variety.

Low variety, more trash (as everyone dives or fights for the same things)

High variety, less trash.

Not really, see previous post.

As for more Paizil Fail... well, that name speaks for itself.

[Roy]

So, for the hell of it, here's 10 random magic items. I'm not generating 100, that takes way too fucking long. Also, they're all Majors, because surely those won't be vendor trash, right?

Roll number 1: 67, a Staff. Not a bad start. Next roll is 20. Ok, it's a Staff of Illumination.

Illumination

This staff is usually sheathed in silver and decorated with sunbursts. It allows use of the following spells:

* Dancing lights (1 charge)
* Flare (1 charge)
* Daylight (2 charges)
* Sunburst (3 charges)

Strong evocation; CL 15th; Craft Staff, dancing lights, daylight, flare, sunburst; Price 48,250 gp.

Can you say vendor trash?

Roll number 2: 17, a weapon. First roll is 73, special ability and roll again. Second roll is 97, same thing. Third roll is 25, so +4, and two special properties. Let's see what type of weapon it is first though. 44, a common melee weapon. Ok. Specifically, 48. A Heavy Mace.

So so far we have a +4 Heavy Mace with two undefined special properties. First is 66, Shocking Burst. Second is 96, roll again twice. So let's do that. First roll is 85, Brilliant Energy. And even though there's a second roll, it's already maxed out.

+4 Brilliant Energy Shocking Burst Heavy Mace. Well, I'll say this. It has to be one of the most weight efficient ways to transport 100,000 gold.

Roll number 3: First roll is 78, a Wand. Next is 23. So it's a Wand of Major Image. Except that wands have crap for save DCs, so vendor trash.

Roll number 4: First roll is 2, so it's an armor or a shield. Next roll is 25, so it's a +4 shield. And the last roll is heavy, steel. No Animated though, so vendor trash.

Roll number 5: First roll is 16, so it's a weapon. Maybe this one will be better? 14, 58, 15. Nope, just a plain +3 Greatsword. Vendor trash.

Roll number 6: First roll is 28, so it's a ring. Second roll is 29, so it's a Ring of Blinking. Holy fucking shit, it's actually useful!

Roll number 7: First roll is 63, a Staff. Will it not suck this time? 22. No, it's a goddamn mother fucking STAFF OF ILLUMINATION AGAIN!

Roll number 8: First roll is 74. Another Staff. It had better not be a Staff of Illumination again. 14. Staff of Healing. Unfortunately, it's still vendor trash.

Roll number 9: 73. Who let all these mother fucking staves onto my mother fucking random loot generation? 94. Ok, so it's a Staff of Passage. That has to be one of the most expensive pieces of vendor trash in the game. Unfortunately the Mace of Failure took the winning title there.

Roll number 10: 61. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKK! This had better not be a 20-24! *rolls 25* Whew. *reads Staff of Frost*



So, in that ten rolls, I managed to generate one item worth using by anyone, and the rest was vendor trash. There was also a disproportionally large number of sticks, and other blunt objects that seem quite useless except as exceptionally expensive dildos. But hey, at least you get mood lighting and scenery!

[virgil]

From how the thing's described, putting stuff into a bag of holding puts the stuff in another dimension, which means the gold/artifact would instantly be transported to a random place in the city.

There's more crap to the adventure. The point of the whole thing is to get to the villain who's stolen the key/amulet and is trying to get ahold of the artifact and access to all of the riches of the city. But here's the thing, the villain is just as restricted from taking the treasure as the party. You could defeat the villain just by waiting for the molten gold to flood and kill her.

Oh, it seems that if the party tries to 'cheat' by coming back with the amulet after the flood, the rules should change such that the key only actually works every 10 years. Ignore the nonsense of hiding the key to keep the treasures out of wicked hands, you could've made the entire thing extra simple...let the city flood without ever going in, let the villain die to molten gold, and the gates will never open again because the only key is inside.

I'm not sure what's supposed to happen if the party overstays their welcome, waits out the flood inside the city, and then decides to come back with the amulet though. I guess just let them, because there's nothing they can do since it's a city that floods with molten death every three days with money you can never keep.

[Slade]

There's more crap to the adventure. The point of the whole thing is to get to the villain who's stolen the key/amulet and is trying to get ahold of the artifact and access to all of the riches of the city. But here's the thing, the villain is just as restricted from taking the treasure as the party. You could defeat the villain just by waiting for the molten gold to flood and kill her.

I love that idea.

Oh, it seems that if the party tries to 'cheat' by coming back with the amulet after the flood, the rules should change such that the key only actually works every 10 years. Ignore the nonsense of hiding the key to keep the treasures out of wicked hands, you could've made the entire thing extra simple...let the city flood without ever going in, let the villain die to molten gold, and the gates will never open again because the only key is inside.

But someone will pay you for the key so you kind of need it if you want your reward.

I'm not sure what's supposed to happen if the party overstays their welcome, waits out the flood inside the city, and then decides to come back with the amulet though. I guess just let them, because there's nothing they can do since it's a city that floods with molten death every three days with money you can never keep.

It says let them but they need fire resistance, endure element to ignore heat exhaustion, possibly water breathing (if in flood of gold), and some way tyo create food/water (so no starving/dehydration).

So if you have a Cleric you'll be fine.

[Roy]

Wait a sec.

So let me get this straight. You either get an entire city of molten gold, or your reward. And the latter is in any way comparable to the former?

[Koumei]

You need to find a way to teleport other people there, to kill them via golden show... no, I'm not saying that. Molten gold flood.

[K]

What level is this adventure?

If it's not a 18-20th adventure and assumes you end the campaign after it, I don't think anything is going to beat a city made out of gold.