Class Compression

[RobbyPants]

They are both 1st level.

[PoliteNewb]

In other news, I'm pretty sure Gravestrike and Golemstrike are level 1 spells. I'd like those things to be rogue special abilities, if possible.

Agreement. You can also get a version of gravestrike as a Rogue alternate class feature (I don't remember what you have to give up). Making them selectable Rogue special abilities makes more sense.

You could even give them more flavor:

Ghost Hunter: you stab undead in their incorporeal kidneys.

You deal Sneak Attack damage to undead. Also, any weapons you wield have the Ghost Touch ability, and suffer no miss chance for incorporeal.

Demolisher: you know how to break shit

You deal Sneak Attack damage to Constructs and Plants. Also, add your sneak attack damage to any attack you make to destroy inanimate objects or Sunder.

[Darth Rabbitt]

Agreement. You can also get a version of gravestrike as a Rogue alternate class feature (I don't remember what you have to give up).

It's sort of better, sort of worse.

It's deal half sneak attack damage to any opponent normally immune, and you give up trap sense for it, and since trap sense is literally the worst ability the rogue gets, it's a no-brainer to ditch it.

[JonSetanta]

Sigma probably has some similar rationale.

Better than nothing.

In other news, I'm pretty sure Gravestrike and Golemstrike are level 1 spells. I'd like those things to be rogue special abilities, if possible.

Thanks, and I'll pop them in as feats for my Rogue remake over on the "Warrior Remakes" thread soon.


Also, how many people DON'T like the Sneak Attack change I made for this Class Compression concept?
Good or bad, I need to know the flaws.

[LR]

Thanks, and I'll pop them in as feats for my Rogue remake over on the "Warrior Remakes" thread soon.

You're going to make them a feat tax? Feat taxes are always terrible, because they give something a class should already have. The vital parts of a skeleton or golem aren't really any more obscure than the vital parts of a cloaker or bulette, so I can't see the rationale of charging a feat tax for that knowledge. If you want to charge Rogues for reduction of magic item dependency, you should let them buy abilities that replace Blink and Flasks, because those are the actual degenerate rogue strategies and at high levels, the only effective rogue strategies.

Also, how many people DON'T like the Sneak Attack change I made for this Class Compression concept?
Good or bad, I need to know the flaws.

It's a slight buff to Sneak Attack's average damage, but really it's just a playstyle choice. Some people like rolling lots of damage dice, and others don't. If you expect some players to be opposed to static damage, you might be better off with a rule that lets Rogues Take 3.5 on their sneak attack rolls.

[For Valor]

Make them part of sneak attack. The rogue should be able to sneak attack anything from level 1, because doing it any other way is dumb.

Also, the damage progression is too much, especially with a TWF rogue. If there is any way to say "no TWF, better damage progression" I would be in favor of the idea because it encourages variety in rogues, but I think there's no point in crunching the damage progression otherwise.

[JonSetanta]

You're going to make them a feat tax? Feat taxes are always terrible, because they give something a class should already have. The vital parts of a skeleton or golem aren't really any more obscure than the vital parts of a cloaker or bulette, so I can't see the rationale of charging a feat tax for that knowledge. If you want to charge Rogues for reduction of magic item dependency, you should let them buy abilities that replace Blink and Flasks, because those are the actual degenerate rogue strategies and at high levels, the only effective rogue strategies.

The other solution is to alter how Constructs and Undead resist Precision damage (the type that critical hits and Sneak Attacks use)
Something like PR 10 or 20 would allow Rogues to eventually stack it up and surpass it.

Or you could just remove such immunity completely, also eliminating the need for a rules exception for the attacker. Probably the easiest solution.

By RAW, it's ass, and there's a multitude of options for it... but RAW is RAW and unless gamers use specific house rule fixes, they will continually encounter the problem.

[For Valor]

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack any creature, because he's just that badass, and can also score critical hits on targets that are immune to critical hits if she's making a sneak attack.

[JonSetanta]

Well it is true that D&D designers went too far with critical immunity, but it simply must be given to monsters with absolutely no anatomy whatsoever.

Oozes for instance.
There's no eyes, organs, weak spots, or limbs. They're just blobs.
Your weapon or flask will simply sink in and rupture whatever membrane is there.
You can not crit ye flask.

Also, what about objects?

[PoliteNewb]

Well it is true that D&D designers went too far with critical immunity, but it simply must be given to monsters with absolutely no anatomy whatsoever.

Oozes for instance.
There's no eyes, organs, weak spots, or limbs. They're just blobs.
Your weapon or flask will simply sink in and rupture whatever membrane is there.
You can not crit ye flask.

Also, what about objects?

While I agree with you on oozes and blobs, I think you should totally be able to sneak attack (and for that matter, crit) objects and constructs. Statues, walls, and other constructed items totally have flaws and weak spots, and rogues should be able to target those.

I don't have a problem requiring the rogue to sink a feat/special ability to be able to do that, though...mainly because I think sneak attack, while it CAN be applicable in a wide variety of situations, should not be overly broad by default. Sneak attack should be (IMO) balanced by the fact that you DON'T/CAN'T do it all the time. Otherwise, it's just a straightforward damage bonus, not a tactical maneuver.

[JonSetanta]

Also, I just thought of something: Sneak Attack shouldn't scale by Rogue level.

It should scale by Hide and Move Silently ranks.
In fact you could just add those ranks to damage, stacking up to a maximum of Level +3 Precision damage.

[ubernoob]

Also, I just thought of something: Sneak Attack shouldn't scale by Rogue level.

It should scale by Hide and Move Silently ranks.
In fact you could just add those ranks to damage, stacking up to a maximum of Level +3 Precision damage.

No. This would make rogue the best one level dip ever. Don't do that.

[JonSetanta]

Yeah but.... yeah you're right.

[PoliteNewb]

Also, I just thought of something: Sneak Attack shouldn't scale by Rogue level.

It should scale by Hide and Move Silently ranks.
In fact you could just add those ranks to damage, stacking up to a maximum of Level +3 Precision damage.

No. This would make rogue the best one level dip ever. Don't do that.

Trufax.

Still, though, you can find a middle ground. I've oft thought that anything that scales by "class level" should also scale by "1/2 character level" if that's higher. Dipping shouldn't be super-awesomez, but we don't want it to be useless either.

[Kaelik]

Dipping shouldn't be super-awesomez, but we don't want it to be useless either.

Yes we do.

Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Ninja 1/Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Samurai 1/Sex Robot 1 is not a viable character. Just accept and move on.

[PoliteNewb]

Dipping shouldn't be super-awesomez, but we don't want it to be useless either.

Yes we do.

Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Ninja 1/Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Samurai 1/Sex Robot 1 is not a viable character. Just accept and move on.

Just accept Kaelik's voice as God's voice. Gee, I wonder why I have a hard time swallowing that shit?

Shit like that is more a product of classplosion than having open multiclassing that actually functions. If you have 100+ classes, people will want to play them, because trying new things. If you allow them to play multiple classes per character, they're going to want to do that if it's viable.
The answer is not to make it so multiclassing is worthless and "wizard20" is your default option. If you're going to do that, put things back on rails and disallow multiclassing.

Incidentally, I wouldn't want your sample character to be viable either...but that's not what I meant by "dipping". I meant that if you have 8 lvls of Fighter, there ideally should be a reason you might want to dip 1 lvl of Wizard. And vice versa. It doesn't need to be a great reason, but it should be something that doesn't make that a completely retarded choice.

[ubernoob]

Stuff

Look, just because you don't like Kaelik doesn't mean you should reject his advice when it's right. You fucking agree with him!

I wouldn't want your sample character to be viable either

Seriously, save the shit talking for when you actually disagree with what's being stated.

[Koumei]

Oozes for instance.
There's no eyes, organs, weak spots, or limbs. They're just blobs.
Your weapon or flask will simply sink in and rupture whatever membrane is there.

It's one BIG internal organ... except external. With a thin membrane. Shouldn't it be that *every* hit is critical?

[LR]

The way that they're described and drawn, Oozes are less like giant cells and more like big animate globs of non-Newtonian fluid.

[For Valor]

Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Ninja 1/Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Samurai 1/Sex Robot 1

is totally viable.

[Meikle641]

Dungeonscape had an alt class feature for rogues for Sneak Attacking things that normally can't. It sucks, and I think the 3.5 Ravenloft campaign book has another variant as well, but yeah. /late

Alternative Class Feature: Penetrating Strike
Level: 3rd.
Replaces: If you select this alternative class feature, you do not gain trap sense.
Benefit: Whenever you flank a creature that is immune to extra damage from sneak attacks, you still deal extra damage equal to half your normal sneak attack dice. This benefit does not apply against creatures that cannot be flanked, nor against foes that are otherwise denied their Dexterity bonus to AC or flat-footed but not flanked.

[Bihlbo]

Seriously, save the shit talking for when you actually disagree with what's being stated.

You're off base:

...but that's not what I meant by "dipping". I meant that if you have 8 lvls of Fighter, there ideally should be a reason you might want to dip 1 lvl of Wizard. And vice versa. It doesn't need to be a great reason, but it should be something that doesn't make that a completely retarded choice.

is in obvious disagreement with:

...Just accept and move on.

which implies that critical thinking is bad.

[ubernoob]

Seriously, save the shit talking for when you actually disagree with what's being stated.

You're off base:

...but that's not what I meant by "dipping". I meant that if you have 8 lvls of Fighter, there ideally should be a reason you might want to dip 1 lvl of Wizard. And vice versa. It doesn't need to be a great reason, but it should be something that doesn't make that a completely retarded choice.

is in obvious disagreement with:

...Just accept and move on.

which implies that critical thinking is bad.

Read Kaelik's post again. The false dichotomy you think is there is not actually there.

[For Valor]

It's not a false dichotomy. There's no choice, just an opinion dressed up as a fact.

[JonSetanta]

Oozes for instance.
There's no eyes, organs, weak spots, or limbs. They're just blobs.
Your weapon or flask will simply sink in and rupture whatever membrane is there.

It's one BIG internal organ... except external. With a thin membrane. Shouldn't it be that *every* hit is critical?

Interesting. I don't know. Not like every square inch of a blob is vital to senses and mobility, it would just close the wound or something...





Also, I have further compressed the classes (after my awesome winter break).
Pray that I do not compress them further.
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51968