Barbarians vs. Angry Fighters

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:39 am

What should the difference between these two be?

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:11 am

Barbarians should never be "angry" ... they should have rage.

Anger is, to some extent intellectual. You are angry with a given thing because of some intellectual reason. (You killed Kenny ... YOU Bastards ... is anger.) Anger leads to hate and so forth.

Rage is the channeling of the primordal chaos. When the Hulk wants to smash a tank he is not per se angry with it. Sure the tank's canon shell did sting and being pushed back a few feet by the impact is annoying, but Hulk smashes because that's how you deal with things that don't seem to like you and try to hurt you.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:13 am

Rage is what you get when lots of different things piss you off and you don't know what to be angry at anymore.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:27 am

Barbarian is just a background, it means you're not that familiar with the mainstream cultures of the setting, and you probably have an outdoorsy flavor to your skills. The rage thing is cute, but it's hardly necessary to the concept.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:28 am

Rage is the channeling of the primordal chaos.

Whatever the fuck that means... I tried to argue something like that once and people assured me it made no sense (via laughter) nor does the "rage force" or whatever... but I think it is supposed to be something like that. You're basically tapping into some lets say "unkown power source" via your rage and thats what powers you up. Sometimes people call it the bear spirit and some view it as a possesion of somekind, but if we try to tie it to "chaos" it has unfortunate implications (see: giant frog).

When the Hulk wants to smash a tank he is not per se angry with it. Sure the tank's canon shell did sting and being pushed back a few feet by the impact is annoying, but Hulk smashes because that's how you deal with things that don't seem to like you and try to hurt you.

Pretty much this, a barbarian is for someone who wants to play an incredible hulk style pc meaning they want to "hulk out" and therefore hit shit really hard sometimes with an axe sometimes not. (no questions asked). Which is very different from someone who's learned any real martial art ala the fighter you pissed off, who's likely to trip/bullrush you into a tree followed by ass stabs. The rage is some ex way of drawing su power into yourself.

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:38 am

Barbarians are;
-uncivilized (flavor)
-lead tribes not armies (flavor)
-hit things really really hard (no tripping or disarming)
-may have a spiritual or primal connection

The mechanical problem with rage is that any barbarian is going to rage on every fight. Which means its hardly even an ability, just passive boosts which are only gained in combat.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:43 am

Chaos, simply put, is the opposite of cosmos, the opposite of order; unfocused, without a structure. It is, ironically, a very good battle tactic, because when you look like you have gone fricking insane people generally shit their pants at your sight and your approach.

"From the fury of the Norsemen, deliver us." You don't really have to have the scale power of the Hulk to use this idea in combat. You had people with no armor (practically naked) running striaght towards professional (Roman) troops with superior weapons, armor and tactics and ..

HOLY FUCKING SHIT THEY ARE CRAZY

Whole formations would panic.

You do realize that "Barbarian" comes from the Greek and means anyone who isn't Greek. Not Safe for Work drawing of the old idea of what a batshit barbarian looked like.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:46 am

The mechanical problem with rage is that any barbarian is going to rage on every fight. Which means its hardly even an ability, just passive boosts which are only gained in combat

and really thats okay.
You could give them nature powers but there are totally people who are URBAN Barbarians so yeah even the flavor is off soemtimes. Still. . . so your class stick is you get some kind of awesome combat bonuses, I don't think that it means you can't trip or disarm, thats just stupid, and I'm sure peope go berserk shooting up the place as well (activation items)... but basically something like "the hulk" but smaller. or wolverine "oh no he's going into a berserker rage, lol" which makes him immune to mind altering affects but doens't to much outside of combat. What out of combat thing would you want them to have?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:59 am

basically... this

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:14 am

A Barbarian should be a pure unstoppable force of nature like a tornado with blinding speed and the strength to crash through stone walls. A Fighter should be a tactical genius like Alexander with unbreakable tactics and absolute ownership of any space he can reach.
Or at least, that's where they should end up. Everyone starts as a chump.

Magic should roll off barbarians.
Barbarians should get multipliers to their strength (at least for lifting, bursting doors, skills, etc.)
Barbarians should be three or four times faster than other classes and have freedom of movement style effects.
Barbarians should have a reason why rage is bad that doesn't screw over the rest of the party.
Barbarians should provide superpowers to their weapon (unsunderable, etc.).
Maybe they should get supreme cleave?

Fighters should have localized battlefield control (extra AoO, some kind of immobilizer, etc) as a class feature. Getting it from feats is inane and insulting.
Fighters should have crazy foresight and free contingent actions. They should have a LOT of contigent actions if they set up before fighting. They should be able to give other characters bonuses (specified actions?) by predicting enemy actions.
Fighters should be fairly well armored. When you swing at them, it should go clang.
Fighters should get tiny men, at least as a plot devce.
Maybe they should get a bonus five foot step, even with other movement?

Krakatoa · Post by **Krakatoa** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:26 am

Not a comprehensive list, but some of the things I think are most important.

Barbarians
-Uncivilized
-Deal lots of damage.
-Weild large, usually two-handed weapons.
-Are all about STR and CON. There should be no DEX-based Barbarian.
-Generally control the battlefield by moving enemies this way and that and knocking them far away.

Fighters
-Usually Civilized
-Deal moderate damage
-Use a wide variety of weapons.
-May use finesse and technical skill, might be DEX-based.
-Control the battlefield by driving enemies back a bit at a time, or keeping them in one place, keeping themselves the center of attention and the target of enemy attacks.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:36 am

I don't really agree with anything Krakatoa posted about barbarians except for "deal lots of damage". I mean, a dex based barbarian could be interesting (and is viable, in Tome). Same goes for a two+-weapon wielder.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:40 am

Barbarian type concepts are generally better known for using improvised weaponry than the "soldier" or "trained swordsman" style fighter, but both do. Really, barbarian should basically be a type of fighter. What if rage were just a scaling feat?

Krakatoa · Post by **Krakatoa** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:48 am

Instead of a Feat, I'd make Rage consist of optional Dailies and Encounter Powers that you can take, if you want to play the sort of raging Barbarian stereotype, since that would have the scaling built in. But there would also be abilities for more calm Barbarians.

Barbarians being a type of Fighter isn't a bad idea. That's how Dragon Age handled it--the base classes are Warrior, Mage, and Rogue and everything else are subclasses of those. Granted that's a video game, but there's alread a precedent for it in DnD with Prestiege Classes/Paragon Paths, so it might work out.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:03 am

Krakatoa wrote:Instead of a Feat, I'd make Rage consist of optional Dailies and Encounter Powers that you can take, if you want to play the sort of raging Barbarian stereotype, since that would have the scaling built in. But there would also be abilities for more calm Barbarians.

Barbarians being a type of Fighter isn't a bad idea. That's how Dragon Age handled it--the base classes are Warrior, Mage, and Rogue and everything else are subclasses of those. Granted that's a video game, but there's alread a precedent for it in DnD with Prestiege Classes/Paragon Paths, so it might work out.

Ok, sure, you could write up something for D&D MMOe, I was talking for 3.5/Tome.

Krakatoa · Post by **Krakatoa** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:28 am

Huh? I wasn't talking about DDO. O_o

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:35 am

neither was I. D&D MMOe=4e.

*sigh* the joke already wasn't very funny, and you made me go explain it. You've killed a feeble, ailing joke, Krakatoa, how can you live with yourself.

Krakatoa · Post by **Krakatoa** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:42 am

Oops? Sorry, I guess I'm not following how 4E is any more like an MMO than 3E. It seems to me like it's more the other way around--Dungeons and Dragons is the root inspiration of MMOs, via classic CRPGs like Baldur's Gate et al.

Returning to an earlier thought, I think, flavor wise, you could easily have a DEX-based Barbarian by reskinning a more DEX-based class. Mechanics-wise, however, being big and blunt and crude is what seperates Barbarian style-play from Rogues and Fighters.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:54 am

On D&D and MMOs, see new thread.

On dex based barbarians. I'd be tempted to make the Dex based barbarian different mechanic, possibly focusing on more attacks in a Frenzy, and a str based Rage which focuses on more damage in fewer. They're both perfectly viable, and I see no real reason for them to be mutually exclusive, though there should be plenty of other builds so that not every "hulk out character" looks exactly the same.

Krakatoa · Post by **Krakatoa** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:05 am

That's true. And the inherently limited nature of what we typically call a Barbarian is why it might actually be better as a variant of Fighter. Unfortuantely I only have PHB1 of both 3.5 and 4E handy, so I really don't have much of way to analyze what WOTC has done; I've heard 4E did Barbarians pretty well and that 3.5's are mostly useless.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:26 am

Angry Marine [Combat]
Benefit: 1/day per 3 HD, you may enter a Rage. When in a rage, you do not suffer non-proficiency penalties (including for improvised weapons). While in a rage, you cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can you cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your Constitution modifier. You may prematurely end your rage. At the end of the rage, you lose the rage modifiers and restrictions and become fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter.
+1: While raging, you gain a +4 str, +2 con, and a +2 morale bonus to will saves, but suffer a -2 penalty to AC.
+6: While raging, you gain DR (1/3 Character Level)/-.
+11: Your attribute bonuses while raging increase to +6 (str and con) and +3 (will) and you gain a +4 bonus to resisting enchantment abilities which stacks with other effects.
+16: Your attribute bonuses while raging increase to +8 (str and con) and +4 (will). You are no longer fatigued at the end of your rage, and, if below -10 hp, may continue to function until your rage ends.

Done.

For a dex based, I'd probably just copy the TWF chain.

www.d20srd.com for when you're away from 3.5 core books, or (like me), too lazy to grab them.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:45 am

Krakatoa, you're dumb.

Barbarians are all "not civilized" peoples. They're not all "big dumb brutes". They're "everyone who hasn't been separated from themselves via the claustrophobia of 'civilization'".

A Barbarian best described as a jaguar is an ambusher. In Tome, Barbarians get hide and move silently.

Why? Because the prototypical barbarian is actually able to be represented with such a skill list. The prototypical barbarian, of course, being Conan.

In many ways, a Barbarian is sort of like a Tribal Brave; the Ranger is the Tribal Scout; Fighters would be Armsmasters (not really tribal though); really, even Paladins (Tribal Champion); Knights (Chieftain's Guard) and other PHB classes could be made to be "tribal".

For a Tribal Brave, being able to sneak up on enemies, or notice hidden forest ambushes are things to really keep in mind as being crucial skills.

Of course... being a berzerker is.... something else. Historically, Berserkers actually lived in Scandinavian cities, would have to go into a berserker trance (something that took time); and relied on "being in a crazed trance" to both intimidate, and ignore really awefull injuries.

I'm not sure where exactly Berzerk fits in with FAR; but something along the lines of Form->Trained (Innate/~/Changed)-> ???(Physical/Mental/Emotional) -> Bersark is possible; but it could also be a Reactive Ability. :/

I haven't given lots of thought on morale/psychological based powers for my system for a while right now.

traverse · Post by **traverse** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:58 am

On barbarians as background, the Barbarian from Szatany's ultimates had some nice ideas for alternate options to rage. But yeah, I definitely see rage as feat only, these days, though I'd hope for less straight stat increases if that meant being able to drop the uses per day.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:23 pm

Berserker rage should just be a feat. Barbarian has no right existing as a class.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:43 pm

I like the way the tome hadles their barbarian pretty well. Honestly in the end I liked the way they worked before, which is kinda why Zendu and I wrote the handbook. There were plenty of alt. class features for it, and one of the things that I find myself adverse to is the idea "lets just roll it into fighter" I suppose really that Barbarian and Berserker fill the same slot in my head because OF the rage mechanic. I'm not sure why they call it the barbarian at all save for the conan reference but when you talk about people 'Hulking out" and the such we're talking berserkers. Still I would think that we all kinda get it by now.
I mean... yeah the tome, it really does a good job of what people are looking for when they're looking for the barbarian in D&D
Awesome at dealing melee damage, shrugs off wounds with ease, Resistant to magics (especially things like mind control).
What they lack is they're own feats like...
Firetorm Berserker.
Prerequsite: Rage class feature
Rage dice:
0 - Gain fire resistance 5
1d6- Any weapon used gains the flame weapon property (this also includes any unarmed or natural attacks the barbarian might have)
3d6 - Each time you enter a rage all opponents within 30 ft must make a fortitude save or take damage equal to your rage dice until your rage ends or they take a full round action to put themselves out. (This increases to 60ft at 8d6 and all opponents you have line of sight to at 10d6)
5d6-You may run across superheated currents of air, treat this as air walk the spell but requiring a swift action to activate and lasting only 1 round per activation. Fire resitance: 10
8d6 - Once per round as as a immediate action target opponent that is on fire must make a will save or die, the targets body is melted away and leaves in its place a small obsidian gem containing its soul (see the economicon for details)

All saves are constitution based....
... and things like that, a good number of people have written me asking about feats like that but worse of course cause they were for regular 3.5
Primal assault is another excellent example of the things barbarian players seem to want, it seems a very clear thing from the fighter.
Szatanys barbarians have a lot of flavor but seem like they were balanced against each other more than balaced vs D&D. Shouts.... wtf. . .