Dom3: Revenge of the Den

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TheNotSoEvilNecromancer
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Post by TheNotSoEvilNecromancer »

Akula wrote:Abbysia did not submit a new turn. I think we should just call the game a draw. None of the leaders ever fought one another, so it isn't clear who would win in a confrontation and I have very little interest in playing one out while trying to pick up territory from a huge AI.
I second this motion, I move that we reform the position of Pantokrator to be a triumvirate of demigods. The hegemony of past ages must be abandoned if we are to stop this centuries long cycle of violence forever.

Also, this has become tiresome.
Last edited by TheNotSoEvilNecromancer on Mon May 16, 2011 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata »

Bah, fine. Victory by exhaustion! :p

Will disclose full strategic outlay (gem income, Tartarian count, artifacts) once game is officially done. As well as strategic intent and all hidden alliances. So we can laugh at people's paranoia.

It would be funny seeing a Lich, a Fountain, and a giant undead Oracle ruling together though. Are we gonna make our worshippers pay homage to the Holy Trinity? In the name of Undeath, Bigger Undeath, and the Holy Fountain?
Last edited by Zinegata on Mon May 16, 2011 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
TheNotSoEvilNecromancer
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Post by TheNotSoEvilNecromancer »

Likewise, we should all go about posting an after action report once the end comes. It would also be cool to get final comments from all the folks eliminated along the way.

As for the Holy Trinity idea. That works out quite well, we'd have to move our Imperial Capital to someplace centralized... I hear Utgard is vacant. ;)
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Orion
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Post by Orion »

Wow. I didn't die.
Korwin
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Post by Korwin »

Declared Game finished.
Red_Rob wrote: I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.
Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata »

Right, so full disclosure time:

Final Gem Income (and reserves) as of Turn 55:

Fire: 9 (42)
Air: 19 (31)
Water: 18 (80)
Earth: 13 (52)
Astral: 19 (80, yes I was aiming for a Wish)
Death: 19 (23)
Nature: 22 (12)
Blood: Approx 20 (80). One Blood 3 Hunter, One Blood 1, and one pile of scouts.

Gem gens:
3 Clam of Pearls, 2 of which were forged in the last turn
1 Blood Stone

So really, fuck Abysia and their constant panicking over my non-existent gem gens. See below for the actual reason of the Agarthan/Chelmian accord.

Gold Income:
The secret to my massive income wasn't Judges, although I did put everyone to 120% tax rate. However, early on it was the fact I had 3 Great Gold Mines that let me swim in money.

Army:
- 6 Tartarians ready for battle (all Titans of some sort), another 2 for GoRing (1 Titan, 1 Spirit).
- 2 Golems
- 2 Bane Lord
- Draconians that had been summing allies since Turn 20
- One casting of Legion of Wights
- 2 Ivy Kings and 60+ Vine Ogres
- 1 Tarrasque
- 2 Sleepers, with armies of about 130 regular troops each
- 1 DemiLich
- 1 Naiad
- 2 Lamia Queens (1 is a Blood Hunter)
- A ton of Magisters
- Several Jade Sorceress (N/W)
- (Recently) Access to High Maguses (FSE)
- (Recently) Access to Wizards (Fire) (F+FSWE)
- Sages (This is how I kept up with research)
- 2 groups of Wardens

No Elemental Royalty.

In short, I was all over the place.

Research:
- Con 9
- Alt 9
- Evo 7
- Con 8
- En 8
- Tha 6
- Blood 5 (was aiming for Vamps)

Final agreements:
- Caelum - temporary alliance in exchange for getting to use the Sceptre of Dark Regency and The Chalice for a few turns so they can at least summon some Tartarians to play with.
- Marignon - Defensive alliance vs Agartha. Also, we "traded" with them so they could take down Agartha's globals.,
- Agartha - NAP 3, but we would have DoW'd them (and waited the 3 turns) once they were at war with Marignon
- Abysia - no agreements. Only war plan was to kill their outposts if toads started to rain in Chelms
- TC - peace treaty. No plans to invade.

Final strategy:
- For me, it really was boiling down to defeating Agartha once and for all after they screwed over Gath and betrayed us like three times in this game.

Still, due to Agartha's vast land area it was advantageous to have a partner for this war (Marignon) and to not have other distractions (Caelum/Abysia). In fact, I would say that given the game state, it was mandatory that these conditions be met before I fought any war with Agartha.

----

It was kinda sad that we didn't actually have the final bruhaha, but to be blunt I think the Big Four (Marignon, Agartha, Chelms, Abysia) were all pretty even by this point in terms of firepower. It was therefore stupid to seek out a "fair" battle, and I think the Agarthans were thinking the same thing.

It was completely not to our advantage to fight each other to a stalemate while Marignon or Abysia got to sit on the sidelines. That's why I gritted through several Agarthan betrayals, and Agartha in turn backstabbed TC because they got really worried they had pushed me too far.

In short, Agartha and I were playing conservatively. Shocking I know, but we're both first-timers. Neither of us were really good at scriping our armies yet (notice how many times Agartha lost 30 death gems fighting indies?) and the two nations waiting on the sidelines knew what they were doing.

----

And yes, I would have crushed Caelum first even if it ended up being Abysia/Caelum/Agartha vs Chelms/Marignon/Utgard/TC. All of our intel on Caelum indicated that we could crush them pretty quickly, giving me two VP provinces before having to swing south to fight Agartha.

Sure, Agartha could take some of my provinces. But with two layers of forts down there, it'd take time (How long? Well, let me put it this way: The fort at Halemyre still remains under TC's control. Seriously). Besides, the Caelian territories would form an effective buffer between me and the Abysians once they inevitably intervene.

And given that Abysia and Marignon weren't actually going to fight in this setup, while Marignon was all set to kill Agartha, I knew I could rely on the Agarthans being distracted.

----

But, anyway, nice game. I congratulate Akula and TheNotSoEvilNecromancer for being co-winners. And I thank jimbo and K for being trustworthy allies. Thanks all.
Last edited by Zinegata on Mon May 16, 2011 4:14 pm, edited 8 times in total.
Rabelais
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Post by Rabelais »

Hey. I apologize for apparently killing this game. Wasn't actually my goal at all. Too much work went into the game for me to have trashed it like this. Damn.

note to self. never throw a hissy fit on friday afternoon, when you know you wont be able to monitor the thread closely.

I was going to suggest Jimbo be given control of abysia, but it seems things have gone beyond that.

I truly am sorry.
Akula
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Post by Akula »

Final Gem Incomes:
Fire +16
Water +8
Air +10
Earth +11 (+46 off graphs)
Astral +13
Death +56
Nature +27
Blood +80-150 depending on the turn

Gem generators:
46 Blood Stones
+1 traded to Man
+6 or 7 traded to abbysia
Production ranged from 2 to 5 a turn.

Gold Income:
Approximately +3000 around 750 of that came from Marignon itself.

Army:
300 odd soldiers left over from fighting ermor
100+ Goetic masters (several F4s, one [empowered] B4, one F3 E1, 2 S1 E1s, and one E2)
20+ Royal Navigators
27 Eludian moon mages
200 longdead
120 devils
5 Mound Fiends
7 Demiliches (most boosted to D6 two boosted to D7)
1 Ivy King
3 Druids (N1H1)
1 Lightening Cyclops (Kit for Antithuging or SCing)
2 Earth Cyclops waiting for GoR
1 Titan waiting for healing and GoR
2 Air queens (one geared for antithug work, the other for SCing)
2 Fire Kings (ungeared as of yet)
2 Ice Devils (Also currently ungeared)
3 Harbingers (Thug gear, though 2 needed armor)
This turn I would have summoned:
+1 Harbinger (would be thug kitted)
+1 Fallen Angel (would have SC kit)
+2 Tartarians of some kind
+1 Wraith Lord (would have been given antithug gear)

Other Assets:
Mother Oak 100+ gem cast
Well of Misery 300+ gem cast
3 20% enchantment discount sites, one in active use
8 Soul Contracts
2 Stone Spheres
12+ Dwarven Hammers

Research:
Conj 9
Alt 9
Evo 5
Con 7
Enchant 8
Thaum 4
Blood 7

Diplomatically:
Marignon was preparing for war with Agartha
Marignon had a defensive agreement and trade deals with Chelms
Marignon had no contact with Caelum
Marignon had very little contact with Tien Chi
Marignon was allied with Abbysia

Strategy:
Agartha was the most threatening nation in the game from my perspective, on the last turn I played I overwrote Mother Oak and dispelled GoH. Chelms provided about half of the gems used on each global. With his ability to make tartarians crippled, Agartha still had plenty of ability to make SCs (given his powerful national spells and golems) but I believed that I could deal with those with high end blood magic. I was gearing up my own tartarian and angel production. I was planning to summon a couple of troll kings in the coming turns to provide weapons of sharpness to my devils and the accompanying trolls, these units would form the offensive arm of my armies. For defense I was prepared to spit out massive numbers of mechanical men and then filli the battlefield with fire and lightening. If tartarians started to build up, I would switch to making more mound fiends and casting Legion of Wights with my death gems. Blood slaves would have gone towards a few more items and then exclusively fallen angels and vampire lords. For S the plan was to get one or two more RoSs and then begin to save for wishing. I was planning to empower a water mage in nature so that I could forge a few clams, mostly because I didn't need my water gems quite as much as I needed my astral.

I was hoping to make enough headway with agartha that I could be be within striking distance of winning, then teleporting a strike force into whatever VPs looked weakest and taking them.

If I ended up in a stalemate with agartha, or Chelms was looking to be close to victory, Abbysia (my deals with Abbysia are lengthy and involve literally hundreds of gems changing hands as well as information and economic support) and I were prepared to pool gems for one or both of, Forge of the Ancients, Astral Corruption. I was prepared to go to 100% blood once the war with agartha began, as it would allow me to have SC counters in nearly every province while also allowing me to produce the maximum number of Fallen Angels (who have the perfect paths to be SCs or SC killers). Plus I knew that I had a good shot at having the most deaht and nature, which means I should have eventually attained an advantage in tartarians. In short, there wasn't much fancy going on, I was hoping that I could move to pure gems and brute force the game.

I am sorry that there was no final confrontation, but with finals coming up and so many rollbacks, I was finding it difficult to devote enough effort to the turns to give people a climactic finish.

@Rabelais, it isn't really a big deal, I needed to get a sub too, and I think with half of the leading players being replaced it would be better to let the game go.

Congratulations to everyone that survived this long, including Ulm and Ti'en Chi. I hope that the game was fun while it ran.
TheNotSoEvilNecromancer
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Post by TheNotSoEvilNecromancer »

Rabelais: Meh, you were the straw that broke the camel's back, but really it was a number of things that lead to the end. I was definately a significant factor as was Man and, (by extisting) T'ien Ch'i.

Marignon and Chelms: Holy crap was I toast. I'll elaborate more later.
Last edited by TheNotSoEvilNecromancer on Tue May 17, 2011 2:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata »

Well, actually, I was toast too.

I knew this for quite a while now actually, ever since I started talking casually with Akula on the Dominions channel. His gem income and SC production was much better than mine.

I really lost the game for the following reasons:

1) Failure to clam and make gem gens. As you can see, Mari has a massive income from gem gens.

2) Going all over the place for my summons and artifacts, rather than focusing on a few effective ones (the 25 I spent on a Tarrasque could have been a lot of clams instead, with my huge water gem reserve)

3) Wasting very many turns allowing Agartha to kill TC.

Ah well, I've learned my lesson. Clams really are a good investment once you realize that Wish nets you another 75 more gems a turn.
TheNotSoEvilNecromancer
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Post by TheNotSoEvilNecromancer »

So as it turns out the one guy in this game who wasn't being accused of running away with the game was the one who was ACTUALLY running away with the game...

That's fucking hilarious!
Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata »

Obviously, nobody wanted to piss him off and incur his wrath :P.

That being said I can't really say whether or not Marignon was actually the supreme power in this game for the last few turns. Together, we estimated that Abysia's blood income is about as-good as Mari. But we had no idea how much gem gens he had.

What tipped the balance to Marignon was them getting GoH and Mother Oak. Even with an equal number of gem gens, Mari could now deploy proper Tartarians which Abysia wouldn't get.

So by Turn 56 (end of the game), the world superpower was in fact Marignon. Their SC count was about equal to mine, and they could now tart farm (with 7 (!!) Demiliches, vs my 2 liches). They had about 50% more gem income (for "normal" gems) and a blood income several times bigger than Chelms.

And I was totally willing to let that happen.

And that's because while Mari may have a ton of firepower, geography was working against them. Going north meant killing an ally and getting only 1 VP. Going to Agartha meant having to swim as a non-sea power.

But at least I knew that if I went to war on the same side as Marignon, they wouldn't hold back and try to race for the VP provinces in the south. So it'd be a race between a weaker Chelms and favorable geography, and Marignon with superior firepower and unfavorable geography. So even if I burned up my army against Agartha, Mari would burn up his army too.

The joker for me was always Caelum/Abysia. Because if I had to fight them too, I wasn't gonna win a race against Mari for the Agarthan southern VPs.

But again, if I had to fight them all, I'd still kill Caelum first. Because with Caelum's 2 VP provinces, I only had to take one of the three southern VP provinces to ice the game (2 Caelian VP, 2 Chelmian VP, TC, Agarthan Capital, one southern VP).
Last edited by Zinegata on Tue May 17, 2011 8:28 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Orion
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Post by Orion »

Zine, what artifacts did you have? I notice you didn't list them in your breakdown. Mari didn't have any, so I'm curious if that could have given you an edge.
Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata »

Oh, right, artifacts.

- Sceptre of Dark Regency
- Chalice
- Hammer of Forge Lord (to make up for the fact I only had 4 hammers for most of the game)
- Flying Ship
- Ankh
- Will of Fates Sword
- Winterbringer
- Tempest
- Mageslayer
- Fire eye that produces water gems (I mainly got it for boosting)
- Alchemist Stone
- Sickle WHose Crop is Pain
- Teleport Boots

Aside from the Chalice, which gave me tarts, none of the above could really change the strategic balance. +50 gems a turn and +100 bloodslaves a turn is too high a mountain to climb. I'd only be getting +2 water gems, a few more death via the Sickle as long as Felix Mortis survived.

They would have helped me win some battles though.
Last edited by Zinegata on Wed May 18, 2011 2:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rabelais
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Post by Rabelais »

I had almost 100 bloodstones and 20 clams or so. Sad.
Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata »

Jesus Christ, 120 gem gens for Abysia? That's... more than everyone else combined unless Agartha has a super secret stash.

Doesn't really change things much on my side. But scratch "Mari was the game's superpower" part.

Given this new data, I was actually placed fourth in terms of overall power and positioning (unless Agartha's military is total shit).
Last edited by Zinegata on Thu May 19, 2011 2:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Akula
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Post by Akula »

Yeah, I knew that abby had almost twice the stone I had and some amount of clams. He also had more blood, I don't know how a fight would have gone between us, but it would have been long and bloody if you pardon the pun.
TheNotSoEvilNecromancer
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Post by TheNotSoEvilNecromancer »

I was largely a paper tiger this game.

5 tartarians, only one kitted for war.

7 golems in working condition all battle ready.

Gargoyle with stone sword and Aseftik's armor.

Umbral with Monolith armor.

Ether Lord "The Professor" as my primary astral mage, he came through in a blue Ether Gate that was bigger on the inside.

One naiad that cast both of my globals.

Two Tomb Oracles in the Hall of Fame thanks to TCs bountiful PD.

Sea King

Thalassa, Queen of Elemental Water with a second water queen on the way.

Very few conventional troops but hundreds of Ktonian necromancers.

I had a discount construction (20) and a discount conjuration (20) site on the same province: Debrithia (22). I had another conjuration site in another province (20). Getting half off 30 gem items is pretty kickass.

I had a relatively small income and two boosters a blood stone and a sea king. :P

Fire: 9

Air: 2 (None for most of the game)

Water: 14

Earth: 12

Astral: 26

Death: 21

Blood: 0

Nature: 24

Strategery

My goal in the beginning of the game was to attack R'lyeh mainly because I was the person most capable of fighting them since I rushed straight for Conjuration 5 and had a shambler producing province. That, coupled with the fact that everyone was terrified of them pretty much ensured that for as long as they were alive no one would mess with me.

Initially this meant working with Ulm to push them out of Gath. I would cede that territory to Ulm and then I'd follow R'lyeh into the sea. When Gath repelled the invasion by itself I had to revise my plan. I asked Calibron if he was cool with just invading Gath with me anyway and he was happy to oblige.

On the eve of war I told Ulm I couldn't help as R'lyeh had just massed troops on my border (I failed to mention these were aquatic troops and therefore no direct threat). He reluctantly agreed. I was happy as it kept both of these volatile powers occupied.

When Ulm invaded and Gath called for NAPs from R'lyeh and I, I gave him the following offer:

I take Omur and Tenera in order to kick R'lyeh off the land, then cede these territories back to

NAP until R'lyeh destroyed.


Gath agreed and promptly utterly annhilated much of Ulm and nearly destroyed them.

Meanwhile underwater I played grab ass with Korwin for a few turns then managed to conquer the ocean completely. During this time I courted TC to invade Gath, knowing it would set off the tripwire agreement with Man allowing me to attack both at my leisure. Unfortunately I got really scared by how quickly TC destroyed Gath's eastern army and made a promise to Man I ended up not keeping when I realized that Ancestor Vessels weren't as all powerful as I had initially assumed.

At this realization I formulated a plan to make a deal with TC whereby he would conquer all of Gath then cede it to me under what looked outwardly like a war in exchange for an NAP-3. He refused and offered me all of Gath if I could siege it. I accepted to rid Man of a potential ally to eventually use against me in another tripwire agreement.

I hoped to keep this deal secret and conquer Gath, kick Bogus out, dust myself off for a turn or two, then declare on TC while there armies were hopefully deep in Chelmian territory and my invasion would be largely unopposed.

This was foiled when Orca told Man of our deal then left the game without warning.

I was forced to immediately declare on TC to avoid a potential alliance against me. I thought this was a minor speedbump so I made a deal with Caelum and Abysia (Whom I had contact with as I had been trading with both during their war with one another) to attack Man once TC fell.

This plan fell through when I rapidly found out that TC had a far more powerful military than me when I won a Pyrrhic victory in Vath (not to mention I was still sieging Gath and would take heavy losses there as well).

I then had a ceasefire with TC hoping I could salvage my position while I kicked out Bogus (Who was sieging the fort I built on my two discount site province) and domkilled Gath (who broke my siege on the turn I succeeded in doing so).

Man found out about this deal with TC as well when Orion threatened to tell him the turn I was ready to actually attack him. I finally started making gains in TC around the time when Abysia (and everyone not in the East) got restless and demanded I attack Man.

The rest everyone pretty much knows.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Orion is the true winner of this game. :biggrin: What was the super-weapon anyway?
jimbojones1971
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Post by jimbojones1971 »

Yeah, from about turn 40 onwards I was just stealing oxygen and wasting space, really. The post game debriefs are quite interesting, I have to say.
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Orion
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Post by Orion »

TheNotSoEvilNecromancer wrote: TC had a far more powerful military than me
Lol. I guess the golems and oracles don't count?

Anyway, the "superweapon" was just Solar Brilliance. I figured that if I made a big communion and put up Solar Brilliance, my Ancestor Vessels could cut through your drake riders. Then I'd hope that I had enough casters to take out the umbrals and golems with high astral spam.
TheNotSoEvilNecromancer
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Post by TheNotSoEvilNecromancer »

Hah, I didn't have any golems or oracles when I fought you in Vath. I summoned them all during our ceasefire and since.

C:
Last edited by TheNotSoEvilNecromancer on Thu May 19, 2011 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata »

I might as well point out my involvement in the TC/Gathian/Agarthan/Chelmian clusterfuck...

I had organized a defensive alliance with Ulm, Agartha, and myself against TC. TC was the bless rush nation in our vicinity and his AVs were scaring everyone.

Ulm then went to war with Gath. Gath destroyed Ulm. Since Ulm was gone, I decided that it would be best if Gath took Ulm's place in the anti-TC alliance.

Agartha then goaded TC into attacking Gath - something which I wasn't aware of at the time. TC DoW'd Gath, I DoW'd TC. Unfortunately, my forces had just finished fighting the Patalan war, so TC was able to crush Gath's army before I could launch my own offensive - which came close to taking TC's capital.

The rest is basically as Agartha explained it. He plotted several backstabs but backed down before serious blood could be drawn.

And really, given the West's massive firepower lead, it was a good thing both of us didn't fight each other.

By the way - Gath and I never had a tripwire agreement against Agartha. I don't think we ever even discussed the possibility. For me, the idea had always been "Kill TC first, figure out the post-war settlement afterwards".

I will also note that TC under Orion was much more powerful than what we were initially fighting. It was really quite a shock to both of us.
Last edited by Zinegata on Fri May 20, 2011 3:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Orion
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Post by Orion »

Nothing too mysterious about that.

I can only speculate that because the old management was fighting wars of aggression, he left his mages sitting at home researching while attacking with just his sacreds. I never had to fight in the field. Since Man went for my forts right away, I was able to bring out all my mages pretty easily.

I did do a couple of useful things. I mass-produced Air mages as soon as I got control of TC, which nobody was expecting. Neither of my opponents showed up with lightning counters, and both were relying somewhat on projectile weapons. Since Tc's A1-2 mage is also D2-3, that turned out to give me the death that my strategy ended up resting on, but I had no idea how important Death would be at first.

On the other hand, my predecessor MAY have had good reasons for not building Air. I often felt that I needed all of my Earth Mages for forging and site-searching.
Last edited by Orion on Fri May 20, 2011 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata »

The field battle phase of the war was mostly over by the time you had to take over, Orion. There were about seven provinces north of Halemyre/TC Capital where the field battles were fought and won by the Chelmian army.

That he never sent any support mages - even just one or to to Arrow Fend - brought on the sense that the war gonna be a cake walk which was swiftly turned upside down when you took over.

Also, I'm fairly certain the previous management wasn't even recruiting that many mages. I was killing a lot of thugged-up Khans on the way down to the capital.
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Orion
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Post by Orion »

Yeah, there were still a couple of those wandering around when I took over. I never deployed them. I took their gear off and saved it to slap on thugs, but unfortunately I was never got the research to produce any decent thugs. At the very end I was gearing up some banes (not bane lords) and sleepers.
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