Help me actually understand Winds of Fate.

[Swordslinger]

I am not really a fan of WoF, but that is exactly what it is supposed to solve: Give players less options to choose from, and make those distinct enough so they do not have to worry about numbers and calculations. I'm not a fan of not getting to choose what power to use when, but getting to choose from Power Slam (knockdown everyone smaller than you in melee range), Lunge (move, then do a single attack) and Skirmish (attack, then move backward) is easy.

But you can do that without WoF. All WoF exists to do is give the designer more slack in creating broken abilities, because the ability only gets to be used 1/6 rounds. WoF also nerfs combos, because you can't count on any of your party members doing a sequence of attacks. The downside is you pretty much eliminate most of the strategy from the game by doing that. It's like setting up this great chess strategy and then all of a sudden bishops can't move diagonally anymore and move like knights. It's all the worst parts of a card game, without any of the benefits. At least in Magic, if I draw a counterpell, I'll have that unless someone makes me discard it or I cast it. In WoF, nothing is ever certain, meaning you can't plan anything.

You're much better off just trying to balance Twin Strike than you are telling people they can only declare the action 1/6th of the time.

[Username17]

WoF also nerfs combos, because you can't count on any of your party members doing a sequence of attacks.

WoF nerfs self-combos. If you roll at the end of your last turn, combos between players are not nerfed because they know what their allies are going to have available when they choose their own moves.

-Username17

[Swordslinger]

WoF nerfs self-combos. If you roll at the end of your last turn, combos between players are not nerfed because they know what their allies are going to have available when they choose their own moves.

You're in dreamland if you think PCs will remember everyone else's ability table to know what Tom rolling a 4 on his WoF roll actually means. You've listed 20+ abilities for a single character in your sample chart! I doubt most D&D players will even remember what all of their own character's abilities can do, let alone what other PCs can do.

[Username17]

WoF nerfs self-combos. If you roll at the end of your last turn, combos between players are not nerfed because they know what their allies are going to have available when they choose their own moves.

You're in dreamland if you think PCs will remember everyone else's ability table to know what Tom rolling a 4 on his WoF roll actually means. You've listed 20+ abilities for a single character in your sample chart! I doubt most D&D players will even remember what all of their own character's abilities can do, let alone what other PCs can do.

And yet... multiple wizards manage to pull of combos. I suggest that rather than remembering what other players can do, that the other players talk to them about what their options are and what they can or should do. That's really the only way multiple character combos ever work, since the different players don't have the character sheets of other players in front of them.

You said that inter-character combos were nerfed. This is not necessarily true. Indeed, since each player has a manageable number of options for next round, collaborating on a combo is easier than when there's just a big pile of options for both players. Think of it like a card game. Both players have five to seven cards in their hand for next turn and dozens of cards in their decks. But they can still collaborate on a combo for next turn because they can both see their hands and discuss strategy openly.

-Username17

[Swordslinger]

You said that inter-character combos were nerfed. This is not necessarily true. Indeed, since each player has a manageable number of options for next round, collaborating on a combo is easier than when there's just a big pile of options for both players. Think of it like a card game. Both players have five to seven cards in their hand for next turn and dozens of cards in their decks. But they can still collaborate on a combo for next turn because they can both see their hands and discuss strategy openly.

That assumes you've memorized all the abilities of every class. Since there's a fuckton of abilities you probably didn't read every class, and instead just skimmed, picked one and went with it. Lets say you actually did study and memorized all your classes abilities, which by the way is way more than your average D&D player is willing to go.

Now, you've got 4 other players in the game, all playing different things. You only get to see one of their abilities a maximum 1/6 times, assuming they use it every time it becomes available. Situational abilities, generally the ones that combo well, you will see significantly less than that. By the time you start to get a grasp on what the other guy can do, he's gaining levels and starting to replace some of those abilities, and you have new crap to learn, which happens at most 1/6 times. And naturally his ability chart has changed.

Even if you do somehow manage to come up with a good combo through all that, that one combo you have is only capable of being pulled off 1/36 times, because you need to roll a 4 and your teammate needs a 6 in succession.

Combos of all kinds are pretty much dead in WoF. I know you won't see that because you're one of those people that never admits you're wrong about anything. So go ahead, test it out in a real game and you'll see that this is exactly what happens.

[Username17]

No. Shut the fuck up. You said that people couldn't pull off combos in WoF and you were wrong. Dead wrong, and provably so. So shut the fuck up about that and get a new argument. People pull off combos out of large ability sets all the time. People pull off combos in card games all the time. You are wrong about this facet, and should shut up about it before you start looking like more of an asshole.

The "issue" where you don't see other players use the same abilities that often is kind of the entire fucking point, so I don't really see it as a disadvantage. But whatever. I totally accept that individual game states will only repeat infrequently on a round by round basis. That's completely intentional.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

That assumes you've memorized all the abilities of every class. Since there's a fuckton of abilities you probably didn't read every class, and instead just skimmed, picked one and went with it. Lets say you actually did study and memorized all your classes abilities, which by the way is way more than your average D&D player is willing to go.

If your teammates are that bad at memorizing what other people can do then WoF isn't going to fuck them over any more than spell charges, cooldown times, mana points, etc.. In fact, it makes the decision train more difficult to use other systems. For example, mana points:

Phase 1) Teddy sorts through 20 of his available options. --> 2) Teddy communicates what he wants to do next turn. --> Phase 3) Paul acknowledges Teddy's action, sorts through his 20 available options and if he feels like comboing tries to come up with the best power.

WoF cuts down on the time needed for phases 1 and 3 (since Paul and Teddy only sort through 6 options), so I don't see how you can say it's more difficult or more time-consuming to use WoF.

If you think 20+ abilities is too much to coordinate with, that's fine, but using another system isn't going to help with that; why don't you try coordinating team attacks with a team of mid-level 3E primary spellcasters? Or a team of Shadowrunners at a decent initiate level? It's just as difficult but those aren't WoF systems. And it's not like if such a feature is really so important to you that you can't shrink the WoF table, because you can totally limit entries to 6-12 over the course of the game. It's just that WoF handles 30+ entries a lot better than any other system ever devised while losing no functionality over other systems of similar options for a combination attack.

[Ice9]

If the fan arrow doesn't come up during the fight with Scarecrow, it's because you were using other stuff until the fight ended. It's not a tragedy, since you were actually doing stuff the whole time.

There are two problems with that:

1) Depending on how big your WoF is, and how specialized your specialty arrows are, it's entirely possible that you never get to use them in a situation that they really help. And that's not cool.

2) If your WoF justification is that you literally cannot use the other abilities, which might make sense for some kinds of magic, then fine. But if it's just that you're "not in a good position" or "having bad tactical timing" for using the other options, then not being able to use the flaming arrow against the paper golem breaks suspension of disbelief right apart. It is made of paper, I have a fire arrow - I don't fucking care whether I'm in a good stance to fire it.

WoF nerfs self-combos. If you roll at the end of your last turn, combos between players are not nerfed because they know what their allies are going to have available when they choose their own moves.

I'm split on this. Pre-rolling does have some important advantages, such as enabling better teamwork and speeding up decision making. However, it has one major issue - everybody sees the information in advance.

Now whether this is a problem depends on how WoF is explained within the game. If different rows are a different stance or elemental aura that anyone can see, then it's fine. If it isn't supposed to be obvious, then there's a problem. Sure, you can pretend you didn't see it, but at that point, you're not doing tactical combat, you're doing narrative combat. And for non-tactical combat, something as complex as WoF is overkill.

[Lago PARANOIA]

2) If your WoF justification is that you literally cannot use the other abilities, which might make sense for some kinds of magic, then fine. But if it's just that you're "not in a good position" or "having bad tactical timing" for using the other options, then not being able to use the flaming arrow against the paper golem breaks suspension of disbelief right apart. It is made of paper, I have a fire arrow - I don't fucking care whether I'm in a good stance to fire it.

A few responses come to mind.

1) Things like flaming arrows and buzzsaw arrows shouldn't actually be modeled on the WoF table, since it's just gear as opposed to powers; we just use Green Arrow because he's an easy-to-point-to example about how someone's powers would work. If you're really that hung up on it, we could just as easily use some other hero that has a lot of superpowers or applications of superpowers like Aang or War Machine.

2) You could of course just a priori metagame it. As in, Green Arrow's player could actually spam the 'Flaming Arrow' button over and over again if he wanted to, but even though the in-game universe acknowledges his action the rules intervene to make it so that it automatically fails. So even though it's an option to spam the 'Flaming Arrow' button, the player knows ahead of time it's not going to work on most occasions--and those that would do so anyway fall into the category of Rat Flail players and don't deserve any pity.

3) If a combat is really set up in such a way so that one tactic out of many is that much superior and there's no generic reason why you'd want to deviate from it then it's a bad combat. Iron Man always spamming Yellow Laser when he fights the Silver Age Green Lantern Corps is ridiculously lame even though it might really be that effective.

4) If it's really that important for you that you just thought up this awesome combo or maneuver that would just be perfect for this situation, you can have a mechanic where you can occasionally manipulate WoF rolls. Occasionally is the by-word, because honestly manipulating your roll more than once or twice a combat is dumb.

[Ice9]

Iron Man always spamming Yellow Laser when he fights the Silver Age Green Lantern Corps is ridiculously lame even though it might really be that effective.

Then the rules shouldn't make it be that effective. I don't like plot-enforced stupidity in my books or movies, and I sure as fuck don't want it in my RPGs.

Now I can accept using a slightly non-optimal move in the name of variation and modelling a dynamic situation. Use a Dashing Flurry instead of Crushing Slam because it would fit the situation of the moment better? Ok, sure. Use Shadow Missile instead of Demonic Expulsion Charm on the possessed barmaid, "because cinematic, herp derp"? Fuck that noise.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Then the rules shouldn't make it be that effective. I don't like plot-enforced stupidity in my books or movies, and I sure as fuck don't want it in my RPGs.

Tell me, what's the difference in-story between someone automatically missing 5 Fire Arrows against the Snowlems (because that's what WoF says what happens when you spam the 'Fire Arrow' button without it coming up) and them failing 5 d20 attack rolls when the 'Fire Arrow' option came up 5 times in a row?

[MGuy]

Well there's a big difference in that in the first one you "feel" that you can't use it before you even throw it out (as I guess that's what WoF represents) which would make you use something else instead and in the second one though you "feel" its right to shoot them you just can't line up the target.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Why should the character be able to realize the differences anyway? There's nothing that says that a character has to be able to realize everything what's going on the scene. All the character needs to know, if it's even that important, is that for some reason Fire Arrow will definitely miss against the Snowlems but Acid Arrow and Boxing Glove Arrow won't even though it would be really really nice if Fire Arrow didn't.

It's vitally important that a character is able to communicate what it 'sees' to the player, the reverse is often neither required nor desired. It's okay for a character to know that adventurers are often showered with loot, it's not okay for a character to know that he's entitled to at least 45,000 gold pieces at level 4 even though that's what the rules say.

[MGuy]

Well I'm not sure how the WoF in question is "represented" in-story. I could only guess that the character can "feel" what options are and are not available to them.

[Ice9]

Tell me, what's the difference in-story between someone automatically missing 5 Fire Arrows against the Snowlems (because that's what WoF says what happens when you spam the 'Fire Arrow' button without it coming up) and them failing 5 d20 attack rolls when the 'Fire Arrow' option came up 5 times in a row?

1) Not all abilities need to hit to have an effect. Ocean Cascade will put out the fire that's spreading through the room whether you knock your foes down with it or not, for example.
2) A big enough quantitative difference in randomness amounts to a qualitative change. Having a 50% chance to hit with Flame Arrow is a lot different than having a ~8% (1/6 * 50%) chance to roll the right WoF result and hit - I've never seen a WoF proposal that removed the hit roll.
3) If your character has no idea what the WoF results are, how the fuck are they picking the moves that have a chance to succeed? Are we back in plot-enforced decision territory here?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Well I'm not sure how the WoF in question is "represented" in-story. I could only guess that the character can "feel" what options are and are not available to them.

WoF is easy to justify and in fact would add a lot of flavor if applied towards classes with actual phlebtonium, but unfortunately there's no real genre-appropriate way to make it so for the Conans and Green Arrows. Just another reason why those worthless bitches should bite the dust as soon as possible.

But even so, even though WoF applies to the Fighter just as much as to the Paladins and Swordmages in a metagame sense, there's no reason why the Fighter has to be aware of such a mechanic influencing his move even though Paladins and Swordmages specifically refer to their WoF tables as Prayer Litanies and Spell Matrices. It's a 'just because' thing with Fighters.

[Lago PARANOIA]

1) Not all abilities need to hit to have an effect. Ocean Cascade will put out the fire that's spreading through the room whether you knock your foes down with it or not, for example.

Unless the spell fizzles, or 'random warp weave', or the wizard mispronounces a syllable. Or the Fire Arrow fails to ignite. Or Green Arrow fumbles and breaks it.

2) A big enough quantitative difference in randomness amounts to a qualitative change. Having a 50% chance to hit with Flame Arrow is a lot different than having a ~8% (1/6 * 50%) chance to roll the right WoF result and hit

Not from the perspective of the character. The character doesn't need to know that there's some invisible hand of fate that will secretly make his action fail 100% of the time even though it seems extremely plausible--even though from a metagame perspective that's exactly what's happening. When Batman meets his 20th new Rogues Gallery member that also coincidentally doesn't have superpowers in a universe that's loaded with them, he doesn't go 'phew, good thing the writers are looking out for me!' even though that's exactly what's happening.

[Ice9]

Not from the perspective of the character. The character doesn't need to know that there's some invisible hand of fate that will secretly make his action fail 100% of the time even though it seems extremely plausible--even though from a metagame perspective that's exactly what's happening.

The character wouldn't notice that they missed over 90% of the time? Now we're getting into "knowing what spell levels are is metagaming!!1" territory.
Besides, who the hell cares what the character thinks? The character is not real. I'm talking about the player getting annoyed because the special niche move that they've been saving for the perfect occasion is unavailable when that occasion finally happens.

[BearsAreBrown]

Then allow a "re-decking" system in the WoF or add in ability to alter the roll. In the Roleplaying In Avatar topic Frank mentioned how Lightning Redirection is a super sweet ability that high leveled characters should have... but it's stupidly situational and only useful in combat with three people in the god damn universe. The solution? Allowing side decks that can be swapped in. (The conversation was about modeling with a TCG but a 'hand' is only semantically different then a 'matrix')

In the case of Fire Arrow vs Paper Demon, allow 'Action Points' to break the WoD. Or grant abilities to place on the Matrix that say things like "Pick any ability from Column 3" or "Roll Again!" Or allow characters to break the WoF all the time, it just takes longer.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The character wouldn't notice that they missed over 90% of the time?

I could keep throwing more explanations for the dissonance, but it's clear to me at this point that you're just looking for excuses. So here's the situation:

If this happens often enough that the character actually notices it's by agency of player, who obviously went out of their way to hit the 'Fire Arrow' button just to prove a retarded metagame point. This of course makes you an asshole, in the same way that having your character repeatedly remark that God is cheating him out of 9,000 gold pieces he's entitled to for his level or that he needs to kill 40 more orcs before he improves his lockpicking skill makes you one. You remarking in-game about the incredible Plot Armor you have to fight an array of dozens of enemies that mysteriously scaled to your level isn't you being witty and meta and postmodern, it's just you being a petulant cock.

That still doesn't work for you? Okay, it's a fucking realism for gameplay tradeoff; we tried the more 'realistic' system of VAHs being able to swing their swords all day for a couple of decades and it sucked ass. Come back to me after you complained about there not being any rules for pooping and menstruation or that a '20' on a d20 attack roll always hits.

[Username17]

Green Arrow, the actual Green Arrow in the actual comics, very frequently uses a couple normalish arrows before he pulls out a weird and perfect arrow to take an enemy down. When facing the paper golem he is very likely to use a net arrow and then a boxing arrow and only then use the incendiary arrow that makes it burn up.

If Green Arrow simply used the specialty arrows on turn one, he wouldn't feel like Green Arrow. That's not actually how Green Arrow works. Green Arrow sometimes pulls out a specialty arrow on his first attack, but more frequently uses more normal ones for a couple of shots first and often solves problems by grinding away with regular ones.

Choosing the perfect arrow first shot every time like a D&D Wizard is actually out of genre. So if your primary complaint is that WoF limitations make Green Arrow act more like Green Arrow actually acts, I can't see that as a problem. Batman and other gadgeteers are the same way. Batman may do the suit electrification thing to nail Bane, but he doesn't do that on the first round, he throws some batarangs and some of them explode and shit first.

I don't really care what your explanation is for why characters don't use actions that they have been established in other pages of the book to have access to that seem like they would be very effective in the current situation. In the actual source material they don't always do that. And so it would be a bigger defiance of the genre to have them use the fire arrow on the paper golem first shot every time than to have them get access to the fire arrow at a random point in the fight.

-Username17

[norms29]

what do we think of the idea of having access to the rest of your abilities at a penalty? that way you'll typically use what the WoF gave you against level-appropriate opposition, but if you have a good enough combo or the enemy has a particular weakness, or is just trash-mob that the right attack will oneshot even with the penalty, then you have the option

[Username17]

what do we think of the idea of having access to the rest of your abilities at a penalty? that way you'll typically use what the WoF gave you against level-appropriate opposition, but if you have a good enough combo or the enemy has a particular weakness, or is just trash-mob that the right attack will oneshot even with the penalty, then you have the option

While that achieves the goal of having players use different stuff on a round by round basis, it rather explosively fails to keep option paralysis under control. Imagine if you were playing Magic and someone wanted to institute a house rule where they could discard a card from their hand to play another card of the same color out of their deck for 4 more mana than the card actually cost. You usually wouldn't want to do that, but you're still looking at another two dozen options that are probably not good ideas every round. Turns would grind to a halt as people considered strategies and hunted through decks and reshuffled and shit.

-Username17

[rampaging-poet]

what do we think of the idea of having access to the rest of your abilities at a penalty? that way you'll typically use what the WoF gave you against level-appropriate opposition, but if you have a good enough combo or the enemy has a particular weakness, or is just trash-mob that the right attack will oneshot even with the penalty, then you have the option

That's come up before, and there are several problems with it. If the penalty for using Fire Arrow out of turn is too high, doing so is a time-wasting trap option. If the penalty is too low, then people will spam them, completely defeating the purpose. Also, as previously mentioned in this thread, one of the goals of WoF is to reduce action paralysis. Letting players choose from the 14 attacks set to "stun" in addition to the six on "kill" that round is exactly the opposite of what WoF is intended to accomplish.

Besides, how is an arbitrary penalty more easy to justify than an inability to use that attack that round? How do you intend to make sure the penalty is appropriate to the action being taken? What would the penalty even mean?

If Green Arrow can't use Fire Arrow this round, it's probably because he doesn't actually have a fire arrow in his hand. If he had a penalty instead, what would that mean? Did he accidentally try to load it backwards or something?

Edit: Ninja'd. Added quote to the beginning.

[Ice9]

So if your primary complaint is that WoF limitations make Green Arrow act more like Green Arrow actually acts, I can't see that as a problem.

Hey, I have no problem with WoF for a comic-book superheros game. It's pretty hard to remove the plot-enforced stupidity from that genre anyway, and arguably not even desirable to do so completely.

And I also have no problem with WoF that's well integrated to the in-game reality. If magic is granted by capricious and unpredictable spirits, then it's perfectly reasonable that sometimes you don't get Fireball no matter how appropriate it would be.

The only problem I have is with WoF where:
1) The genre does not mandate plot-enforced stupidity.
2) The in-game explanations are hand-wavy at best.
3) So you have to act stupid, for no explainable reason, "because cinematic".

(And I should note that if "cinematic" was my top priority, I would watch a damn movie).