Expanding AWOD

[Username17]

So there was some discussion of how to go about releasing AWOD as a book you would actually expect people to pay for. That requires changing out the introduction for one that does not assume the readers are at all familiar with World of Darkness material and introducing such stables as "What is a Role Playing Game?" and "What do you Need to Play?" sections. But perhaps more importantly is the need to remove all the IP that belongs to anyone who might care.

Covenants

The following are sourced and can be kept:

• The Shattered Empire - Public Domain
• The Marduk Society - The Notorious Praetorius
• The King With Three Shadows - Phillip DesJardins
• The World Crime League - Buckaroo Banzai (never actually made)
• The Sabbat - Ancient Hebrew

The following are Intellectual Property that would want to be changed:

• The Camarilla
• The Carthians

Cults

The following are sourced and can be kept:

• The Black Hand - Historical Society of Assassins
• The Church of Set - Historical Depravity Cult
• The False Face - Historical "Secret" Society
• Giovanni - Common surname and legendary cad and ghost.
• The Hashshashin - Historical Society of Assassins
• The Hollow Ones - Public Domain
• Madness Network - Historical psychiatric patient help group
• Stellar Oracles - Public Domain
• Storm Lords - Public Domain
• White Lotus - Public Domain
• Zeka - Public Domain

The following are Intellectual Property that would want to be changed:

• Black Spiral Dancers
• Circle of the Crone
• Glass Walkers
• Order Tremere

That being said, if I weren't trying to have White Wolf tie-ins, I'd change the Hollow Ones and Zeka into something else. At the very least the Hollow Ones need to not have their shell company be called "Pentex".

Creature Types

The following are sourced and can be kept:

• Lycanthropes - Public Domain
• Nezumi - Public Domain
• Bagheera - Public Domain
• Vampire - Public Domain
• Nosferatu - Nosferatu
• Daeva - Ancient Avestan
• Witches - Public Domain
• Baali - Ancient Hebrew (ironically used more exactly in AWOD than OWOD)
• Verbena - Actual Plant
• Khaibit - Ancient Egyptian
• Prometheans - Public Domain
• Frankensteins - Mary Shelley
• Golems - Czech Legend
• Android - Public Domain
• Leviathan - Public Domain
• Deep Ones - H.P. Lovecraft
• Troglodytes - Public Domain
• Mi Go - H.P. Lovecraft
• Transhumans - Public Domain
• The Reborn - Public Domain
• The Fallen - Public Domain
• Zombies - Public Domain
• Shamblers - Public Domain
• Soulless - Public Domain
• Revevants - Public Domain
• Fey - Public Domain
• Mirror Goblins - Phillip
• Spriggans - Celtic Folklore
• Trolls - Public Domain
• Giant Animals - Public Domain
• Behemoths - Public Domain
• Swarms - Public Domain
• Chimerae - Ancient Greek
• Kaiju - Japanese Folklore
• Ghosts - Public Domain
• Wisps - Public Domain
• Wraiths - Public Domain
• Poltergeists - Public Domain
• Demons - Public Domain
• Akuma - Japanese Folklore
• Asura - Ancient Avestan
• Ifrit - Arabic Folklore
• Evil Plants - Public Domain
• Mantraps - Public Domain
• Triffids - Common British Usage (questionable)
• Pods - Public Domain

The following are Intellectual Property that would want to be changed:

• The Get of Fenris (needs literally any other name for Werewolves)
• Ventrue
• Children of Ether

Disciplines

The following are sourced and can be kept:

• Auspex - Actual Word
• Celerity - Actual Word
• Dominate - Actual Word
• Fortitude - Actual Word
• Obfuscation - Actual Word
• Potence - Actual Word
• Presence - Actual Word
• Animalism - Actual Word
• Chasing the Storm - Public Domain
• Coil of Thorns - Public Domain
• Trail of Tears - Public Domain
• Veil of Morpheus - Public Domain
• Descent of Entropy - Public Domain
• Names of the Blasphemies - Public Domain
• Progress of Glass - Public Domain
• Song of Swarms - Public Domain
• Walk of Flame - Public Domain
• Lure of Destruction - Public Domain
• Necromancy - Actual Word
• Obtenebration - Francis Bacon
• Symphony of Silence - Public Domain

The following are Intellectual Property that would want to be changed:

• Vanish From the Mind's Eye
• Call the Lamprey
• Theft of Vitae
• Parambulum in Tenebris
• Chimerstry

That being said, if you were going to do that, you'd probably also want to produce expansion products. Which would fall into two main initial categories: Source Books and History Books. Each Source Book ties into a specific power source and talks about the cults and world associated with that power source as well as presenting new items, locations, metaplot, and characters. History books are basically full conversions where you get to play in different time periods.

So your three Source Books would be actually called "The Dark Reflection", "The Dreamlands" and "Mictlan". The Dark Reflection book is going to have a good deal of text on how things work in Limbo, and a bunch of metaplot about The King With Three Shadows and the old Troll Kingdoms. And it's going to have an extra pile of pages on cults like The Stellar Oracles and The Church of Set. And you'll have a section on stuff you can find in Limbo, including a bunch more magic sites and a bestiary. And so on for the other two Source Books. The Dreamlands book gets a whole section on high tech gadgetry, the Mictlan book has a whole piece on the "undercities" of the world.

Then you have the History books. The goal is to have the historical periods resonate with people and be interesting times in the AWOD meta-history. White Wolf hit a home run with "Vampire Dark Ages" even though that doesn't actually take place in the Dark Ages (it takes place at the end of the High Middle Ages and the early Renaissance). Their attempt at publishing a bit to take place in the actual Dark Ages was a colossal failure. No one gave two shits about Mage: Sorceror's Crusade or Victorian Vampire. And for Vampire that mostly has to do with the fact that they didn't really have any metahistory going on in that period. I mean, I want to play a gentleman vampire with a monocle as much as the next guy, but neither the Camarilla nor Sabbat are really doing anything at that point. The Mage Sorcerer's Crusade I think fell flat because the Mage history doesn't hold up to scrutiny at all, and the whole setting just doesn't work if you don't have a Technocracy/Tradition war to hold it up.

Anyway, best time periods I should think would be around the shakeups of Covenants. So you'd do a Revolution! thing set in the late 18th century that sees the end of the Bumen Horde, the creation of the United States, and the beheading of King Louie. Also the rise of whatever the Carthians end up getting renamed to. And possibly a Mongolian Invasion period, in which the World Crime League forms and China is broken and you get to do Wuxia stuff. Then I don't know... Rome probably. People love Rome. Probably set it with the banishment of the last Troll Kingdom on Earth.

-Username17

[Maxus]

Then I don't know... Rome probably. People love Rome. Probably set it with the banishment of the last Troll Kingdom on Earth.

-Username17

That would actually work. You could turn the legends for the Greek/Roman heroes into garbled stories of them fighting various supernatural monsters, and the real fight was pushing back the ghoulies and ghosties and the lang-leggety beasties. The fact that you had cults of personality around every corner makes being a supernatural much, much easier--this period is probably what gave birth to the Masquerade. They had a sort of half-Masquerade, which was "Don't let the mortals find out the truth about us", but it was completely fine to show yourself as a supernatural being, as long as you could keep them from finding out how to hurt you or how you tick. When this fell over, the masquerade probably developed as a response--no half-measures; Don't let a human find out you aren't one of them.

It'd also explain the noticeable lack of hardcore supernatural shit for the past two thousand years. They decided to lay low.

It'd be worth giving Luminaries some way to progress and do stuff, without them being required to become werewolves or mages or Deep Ones or what-have-you.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Late Byzantium would be an interesting Roman setting.

[Maxus]

Late Byzantium would be an interesting Roman setting.

Fall of Rome-era then? Or, at the least, the Roman supplement should include it. Byzantium was founded to handle the empire's administration in that region, more or less. So when Rome went down, Byzantium maintained. This is probably when the Supernatural social order restructured itself to have the full-on Masquerade. But, seriously, this time needs more cults/covenants. The Sabbat isn't even around yet, much less the Carthian Movement. The WCO is in its infancy

But the other eras of the empire are also good times to be a supernatural. One emperor said simply "Such-and-such is no longer a friend of mine" and then the Senate was making laws specifically against that guy. If you can control minds, you can have a field day with that sort of environment. Or made it happen to begin with

Plenty of room for intrigue, manipulation, and ass-kicking as well.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Constantinople around AD 1200 or 1300 allows for interaction with the Ottomans, Eastern European nations, and Sabbat vs whatever the Eastern Orthodoxy is. It's also an actual Dark Ages setting.

[Lokathor]

The far past is license to put in all the cults and covenants that aren't good for society and that don't follow the three big rules of the covenant. The fact that they don't is why they're not around 2,000 years later.

[Orion]

Yeah, the Shattered Empire can be straight-up playable in many past settings.

[ckafrica]

In regards to renaming, unless you plan sell based on the obvious connection to WoD I'd probably move a bit further away from White Wolf names even when they are public domain. Sabbat especially screams VtM to RPGer more than it humble origins. Personally I'd also rename Giovanni, Verbana, and probably the more iconic disciplines.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The one issue I can think of with the past settings is limited supernatural types (e.g. no Deva outside the Americas and Bagheera might not yet exist). I wouldn't really mind, but it's something to consider.

[Lokathor]

So here's a table, fill it in how you like, I'm just putting in example ideas, some of which are better than others.

Covenants
The Camarilla	The Gilgarians
The Carthians	-
Cults
Black Spiral Dancers	Void Seekers
Circle of the Crone	-
Glass Walkers	Ash Walkers
Order Tremere	The Order of Daziban
Hollow Ones	Veiled Ones
Zeka	-
Creature Types
Triffids	-
The Get of Fenris	Werewolf
Ventrue	Strigori
Children of Ether	-
Disciplines
Vanish From the Mind's Eye	Hide In Plain Sight
Call the Lamprey	Umbral Draining
Theft of Vitae	Blood Harvest
Parambulum in Tenebris	Walk The Shadows
Chimerstry	-

Triffids probably do need a rename because they're not just inspired by "Day of the Triffids", they're pretty literally ripped directly from said book.

[Luvah]

First post, been lurking for ages...

Frank, I love aWoD and the tomes in the gayest way I can love something. I work in design and illustration and would like to contribute if you guys still need some art.

I can't really work alone on a project this big, but I can probably produce a decent amount of black and white images on my free time. I wont charge anything.

If you are interested just post here or send me a PM with a few requests and I'll work on one or two pics so you can tell if you like it or not.

[Orion]

The one issue I can think of with the past settings is limited supernatural types (e.g. no Deva outside the Americas and Bagheera might not yet exist). I wouldn't really mind, but it's something to consider.

Then again, you can potentially add new monster types for past settings as well.

If we're renaming or re-writing groups, I renew my recommendation to replace the Spiral Dancers with a fraternal society of apocalyptic platonists called "the shining city"

[Username17]

First post, been lurking for ages...

Frank, I love aWoD and the tomes in the gayest way I can love something. I work in design and illustration and would like to contribute if you guys still need some art.

I can't really work alone on a project this big, but I can probably produce a decent amount of black and white images on my free time. I wont charge anything.

If you are interested just post here or send me a PM with a few requests and I'll work on one or two pics so you can tell if you like it or not.

That sounds great actually. The number one thing such a project needs is black and white pictures with a lot of shadow and pale women wearing a lot of buckles looking pensive. So less This and more like This. In general it wants to be subtle stuff with realistic style (possibly lightboxed from magazine articles or pornography) people with hints of supernatural goings-on like black pools or shadows cast with apparent wings or monstrous shapes.

Some things can be straight photo collaged or light boxed without alteration. The original Nosferatu went public domain a long time ago, and you can flat out use iconic images like This and This.

Triffids probably do need a rename because they're not just inspired by "Day of the Triffids", they're pretty literally ripped directly from said book.

Surprisingly not. Day of the Triffid was published in 1951 in the UK, allowing the copyrights to lapse in 2001. In the meantime it has become a common use word meaning a carnivorous or overgrown plant. In fact, it has subsequently had an unrelated trademark taken out as a fertilizer. So weirdly, it's totally OK to have triffids be giant carnivorous plants right out of the original book, but you could get your ass sued off by someone else if you tried to market gardening chemicals under that name.

In regards to renaming, unless you plan sell based on the obvious connection to WoD I'd probably move a bit further away from White Wolf names even when they are public domain. Sabbat especially screams VtM to RPGer more than it humble origins. Personally I'd also rename Giovanni, Verbana, and probably the more iconic disciplines.

This is true. While "Obtenebration" is a real word in the English language that White Wolf is incapable of owning, it is an incredibly obscure and most people think that Rein*Hagen made it up. So if people read it, their reaction would be "You ripped that off from White Wolf!" - which of course I did; though not in any legal sense. Probably better to call it "Imminence of Penumbra" or something.

Of the remainder: Auspex, Dominate, Celerity, Obfuscation, and Animalism are all found in oWoD and nWoD as vampiric disciplines. Now Celerity and Obfuscation in particular are actually fairly common words. Vampire powers don't even show up on the first page of google hits for "Obfuscation". Auspex should probably be Clairvoyance or something, and Animalism can have a name that fits into the other sorcerous disciplines like Track of the Beast. Dominate can be like Authority or something. Actually, Authority is a pretty good name. Also, a fair number of the more florid individual names are strongly associated with White Wolf even if they are open source. Spirit's Touch should probably get something more general as a name like Psychometry.

As for the Giovanni and Verbena, probably they should be renamed the Ulmians (after de Monte Ulmi) and the Dryad. Not because one has to, but because people would complain I guess.

-Username17

[Orion]

Theft of Vitae can be Theft of Blood, Theft of Life, or Crimson Chains.

Also, this is as least the third time Frank has refused to acknowledge my contention that Black Spiral Dancers are a shit cult.

[Username17]

Theft of Vitae can be Theft of Blood, Theft of Life, or Crimson Chains.

Also, this is as least the third time Frank has refused to acknowledge my contention that Black Spiral Dancers are a shit cult.

OK, I'll acknowledge it. You're smoking crack. Black Spiral Dancers are already on the list of groups who need a name change to be IP compliant, but your contention that a group who have a Destruction and Performance theme need to be Platonists is and always has been completely fucking insane.

That's so out in Left Field that I believe it is actually one of the creepy guys in the stands. The Platonic ideals hold that music should be severely censored, basically completely the opposite of what you'd expect from a cult that teaches music magic.

-Username17

[Username17]

Probably the easiest way to generate pictures is just to take some black and white pictures and jack the contrast way up. It kind of looks like this:



But if I was more artistic, I'd probably blacken the background a bit by hand.

-Username17

[Blasted]

I'm midway in formulating a 17th century aWoD, it started with a "I wanna play a werewolf pirate ARrrghh!" and I've been slowly fleshing it out. It turns out there's a balance issue with androids and their wind power, if you're on a sailing boat. Also, if I could somehow fork in a Japanese setting, I could get the trimvirate of pirates, zombies and ninjas into an aWoD setting. Is there no limit to the awesome?

I'm highly in favour of paying someone more artistic than I for the art. If cent13 can best CGL's output with his readout, I'm buggered if we can't do better than some of WW's efforts.

[Orion]

Nice try, Frank. You still didn't do what I asked you to do, which is address my contention that the Black Spiral Dancers writeup currently extant is shit. You don't have to replace them with Platonists, but you do have to replace them with something it is possible to play with or care about. If you never read either of the long posts in which I explained why they suck, I can link you.

Also, I'm well aware that Platonists wanted to censor music. I'm also aware that one of the signature powers Symphony of Silence gets is the ability to creates zones of silence that censor the music and speech of their enemies. They can also censor all kinds of political speech by killing the fuck out of you with targeted, collateral damage-free death music. So yeah, they're a cult that teaches music magic, but I'd rather portray them as a cult which teaches magic music--a specific musical tradition they hold to be superior to all others. And since Plato thought controlling music was part of how the dictator would create the perfect city, these guys want to use music to perfect society in a more direct and violent way.

[Username17]

Also, I'm well aware that Platonists wanted to censor music. I'm also aware that one of the signature powers Symphony of Silence gets is the ability to creates zones of silence that censor the music and speech of their enemies. They can also censor all kinds of political speech by killing the fuck out of you with targeted, collateral damage-free death music. So yeah, they're a cult that teaches music magic, but I'd rather portray them as a cult which teaches magic music--a specific musical tradition they hold to be superior to all others. And since Plato thought controlling music was part of how the dictator would create the perfect city, these guys want to use music to perfect society in a more direct and violent way.

You don't seem to understand Platonism. Like, at all. We're supposed to deny and censor music because music is less real than other forms of expression. Talking is more real, music is less real. Music is the shadows on the wall, which is why you have to reject it. And the dictator is supposed to censor music so that people aren't exposed to falsehoods ad irrelevancies.

Having people who use music to blow things up and turn water into ice is totally incompatible with that. You might as well be demanding Islamic body hair magic

Nice try, Frank. You still didn't do what I asked you to do, which is address my contention that the Black Spiral Dancers writeup currently extant is shit. You don't have to replace them with Platonists, but you do have to replace them with something it is possible to play with or care about. If you never read either of the long posts in which I explained why they suck, I can link you.

Oh, I read your complaints. It's just: your complaint is stupid. You're saying that a worldwide secret organization of loosely affiliated and fratricidal anarchists is unplayable because... they don't have a monolithic and unified philosophy? What the fuck? That is literally the dumbest thing anyone has ever said about aWoD. I didn't dignify it with a response the first couple of times, because it obviously doesn't merit a response.

It's an anti-order, leaderless anarchist group that pursues long term anti-establishment agendas based on small consensus packs, of course they don't have a fucking leader or organizing philosophy. Duh!

Furthermore, they are mongrel tribe made of misfits, outcasts, and orphans. And your second complaint is that they don't have a dominant ethnic group. Were you high when you made that complaint? Of course they don't have a dominant ethnic group, they adopt from people who don't identify with their own ethnic group! Even if they had a dominant ethnic group at one time, they wouldn't have one now, and they'd implicitly reject the idea that whatever original ethnic group was there should get any recognition for it. Again, a complaint that is less than empty. It's like asking where Exxon is "from" except that they don't even have a headquarters or a CEO. So they are "from" every place that they happen to exist, and nothing more.

You looked at a chaotic cell-structured organization dedicated to increasing Social Entropy and bitched and moaned that you couldn't figure out who was on top of it. That is insane. And it didn't deserve a response then, and it only deserves a response now because apparently you won't shut up about it for years on end.

-Username17

[Username17]

Anyway, light box porn!



Random images with the contrast turned up:



At its most basic, pictures for AWOD would want to look kind of like that. Only hopefully they wouldn't look like they were made by an untalented hack in GIMP who had a dying mouse.

-Username17

[Lokathor]

Also, colors every once in a while. Doesn't even have to be a lot. Could be like one colored thing per image like in Sin City. Or maybe full color that's really washed out.

But basically there's oodles and oodles of black and white text, so seeing something else from times to time is good for the eyes.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Would the different times/settings be covered in the main text or as sourcebooks? I really liked what they did with Ex Machina, where there were four different settings included in the rules instead of having one main. I'm sure we could write up stuff that was just as good.

[Don Strudel]

I would suggest making a publishing deal with TriTac to distribute this as a new edition of Nightlife. It would give you instead cred with certain corners of the RPG community and avoid trademark issues.

[Lokathor]

Would the different times/settings be covered in the main text or as sourcebooks? I really liked what they did with Ex Machina, where there were four different settings included in the rules instead of having one main. I'm sure we could write up stuff that was just as good.

They should be separate from the main book for sure, and possibly separate from each other. Otherwise the main book becomes rather cluttered.

Keep in mind that with no artwork at all the main book is already 204 pages.

I would suggest making a publishing deal with TriTac to distribute this as a new edition of Nightlife. It would give you instead cred with certain corners of the RPG community and avoid trademark issues.

Having an "official" company publish it for you doesn't evade trademarks. That is in no way how trademarks and copyright works.

[Blasted]

I would suggest making a publishing deal with TriTac to distribute this as a new edition of Nightlife. It would give you instead cred with certain corners of the RPG community and avoid trademark issues.

Nightlife was originally by Stellar Games. Does anyone know what happened to them?