[SR 4] Is Bloodsucking Only For Suckers?

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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele »

Strictly speaking, all of the HMHVV people should have lowered attributes at night, seeing how none of them have the nocturnal flaw/edge . .
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Post by Captain_Karzak »

Thanks for detailing a full build and the logic behind the build choices, UmaroVI. It's very helpful in helping me distinguish good decisions from bad ones.

I wanted to know a little more about possession: What happens to sustained spells when you allow a spirit to possess you? Do those spells automatically end, even if they were being sustained by a Sustaining foci?

On a related note, I was wondering how would possession interact with a shapechange spell?
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Post by UmaroVI »

If you have Channeling, it probably stays active although this isn't explicitly stated anywhere; even if it doesn't you could then just recast. If you don't have channeling I have no idea but I wouldn't count on it. If it's in a sustaining focus then there's no reason it would turn off, it's still on your person.

The answer to possession + shapechange is that it's weird because of some holes in the rules. Namely:

1) Does shapechange alter your characteristic maxima?

2) If so, what to?

Also, you can shapechange into a human... and get the net hits as a stat bonus. So you're disguised, and can still wear armor and use weapons.

If Shapechange does indeed change your characterstic maxima to something like (animal stat+3)*1.5, then you can make a silly melee character with Channeling, by turning into a bear or something, then getting possessed and having stats through the roof.

I don't really recommend this tactic as a Nosferatu - it takes a lot of resources invested into a really narrow tactic, and it has a bunch of drawbacks - namely that it takes several actions to set up, and you may not want to walk around in bear form all the time for obvious reasons. Also, you can't wear armor as a bear, and armor is a really good idea in SR.
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Post by Winnah »

You can take other actions while sustaining a spell or spells, suffering the penalty as normal.

summon spirit and have it follow you around, or just instruct it to possess you body when you astral project. Cast your buff spells, sustain, then leave your body.

Spirit takes over and due to being dual aspected, remains fairly easy to boss around.

Bit rusty on these rules though. I'm sure someone will correct me if this is false.
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Post by UmaroVI »

That will work, but you can only astrally project for a limited amount of time. It is a useful trick before you have Channeling.

That said, I don't think Nosferatu really benefit too much from self-possession; having either materialization spirits or spirits that possess armor is probably a better move for this particular character.
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Post by Stahlseele »

As a normal Magician, you can astralla Project for Magic Hours.
If you can't get it done in that time frame, you have other Problems really.
Considering how you can move Magicx1000km/h on the astral and time does not matter on the meta planes, that is PLENTY . .
An Adept with the limited Astral Projection of only Magic MINUTES would get into trouble sooner.
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Captain_Karzak »

I have another possession question:
UmaroVI wrote:There's 2 ways, to the best of my knowledge, of working as a Possession mage.

Way 1 is to build a normal mage, and summon spirits to possess stuff. How good this is, nobody knows, because the rules basically say that the GM should arbitrarily decide what does and doesn't get force added to it. Do ballistic/impact armor ratings get boosted? Does this count towards encumbrance? Catalyst doesn't know and neither do I.

Assuming that your GM allows for something useful to happen (which is either going to be stackable armor or adding to the DV of guns, most likely), you want to focus on being able to summon a spirit type with useful sustainable powers, like Man. Have it hop in and sustain stuff like Movement, Concealment, spells you give it with Innate Spell, etc. "Sustain this power all day" is one "service."
Scenario 1: Let's say my GM says something like, a possessed weapon gains a bonus to DV equal to force or force /2 or -2, whatever would be sane.

What weapon skill should I focus on: Pistols, Longarms, or Heavy - to get the most mileage out of this possession effect?

Scenario 2: GM says no bonus to DV, but you can allocate X # of points (where X is a function of spirit's force) to alleviating recoil, increasing Armor Penetration, or maybe even just bonus to attack dicepool with the possessed weapon.

What weapon skill would be optimal in this case?
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Post by UmaroVI »

Is this still on a Nosferatu?
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Post by Captain_Karzak »

ummm.. no.

I think maybe my first SR-4 character ever should be something less challenging to optimize. Or at least more rewarding. I still appreciate your efforts in helping me make a feasible Nosferatu.

In case it matters, assume an elf or maybe a pixie under a sustained human form shapechange.
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Post by Fuchs »

Captain_Karzak wrote:ummm.. no.

I think maybe my first SR-4 character ever should be something less challenging to optimize. Or at least more rewarding. I still appreciate your efforts in helping me make a feasible Nosferatu.

In case it matters, assume an elf or maybe a pixie under a sustained human form shapechange.
Pixie is a bad idea. Clothes do not change form, and you'll be quite a funny sight if you have to redress after each ward.
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Post by Archmage »

It depends largely on your GM's interpretation of the SR world and how much heat you can carry around without anybody giving you trouble. It also depends heavily on what kind of run you're doing at any given time. If you need to smuggle a weapon through security, a light pistol housing an F6 spirit under these rules deals as much as 10P base, which is already pushing one-shot territory against less-armored targets (or 12S(e) if you're using by-the-book stick-and-shock ammo).

If you're getting something like +Force/2 DV, it sincerely doesn't matter because you're not likely going to push damage to one-shot territory unless you're already using assault weapons. You can go with pistols for concealability or you can burst-fire an SMG. Both are going to be effective at killing fools.

For the most part, increasing DV and increasing AP are opposite sides of the same coin. If you need to take down something with hardened armor, it doesn't matter if your DV exceeds the target's armor rating because your possessing spirit boosted your DV or lowered their effective armor by reducing AP. (Frank's hardened armor houserules change this, making AP far more valuable against such targets.) An attack dicepool buff is always better than a recoil compensation modifier of the same size because it applies all the time whereas RC does not.

It really comes down to personal preference and the in-game utility of things like using concealable, quasi-legal weaponry over bigger guns. Either way, you're realistically going to drop one enemy per IP unless you're spraying a crowd with burst fire; if you can handle that, you're doing fine.
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Post by Fuchs »

How conspicious is a possessed weapon anyway? Wouldn't trying to bring a F6 spirit through security cause issues?
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Post by Archmage »

I assume that would only matter if the weapon were being assensed, unless of course you walked through a ward with it.
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Post by Fuchs »

Archmage wrote:I assume that would only matter if the weapon were being assensed, unless of course you walked through a ward with it.
Not much of a security if they have neither wards nor astral patrols. As a rule of thumb: If you want to fly under the radar, don't use magic.
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Post by Archmage »

Fuchs wrote:
Archmage wrote:I assume that would only matter if the weapon were being assensed, unless of course you walked through a ward with it.
Not much of a security if they have neither wards nor astral patrols. As a rule of thumb: If you want to fly under the radar, don't use magic.
Concealment of weapons works just fine. You can stuff a possessed pistol in your coat and it's hidden on the astral by the opaque clothing. As for wards, don't possess the weapon until you're inside.
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Post by Fuchs »

Archmage wrote:
Fuchs wrote:
Archmage wrote:I assume that would only matter if the weapon were being assensed, unless of course you walked through a ward with it.
Not much of a security if they have neither wards nor astral patrols. As a rule of thumb: If you want to fly under the radar, don't use magic.
Concealment of weapons works just fine. You can stuff a possessed pistol in your coat and it's hidden on the astral by the opaque clothing. As for wards, don't possess the weapon until you're inside.
Which means you'll need to find a quiet spot to call your spirit. Not always an easy option. And not really feasible if you have to pass through a few wards.
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Post by Quantumboost »

Archmage wrote:(or 12S(e) if you're using by-the-book stick-and-shock ammo).
Since stick'n'shock replaces the weapon's DV with its own, and you're presumably not possessing every single bullet you fire with spirits, wouldn't that still just be 6S(e)?
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Post by UmaroVI »

There honestly just aren't rules for that. Nobody knows, ask your GM.

Weapon choice depends primarily on "is Stick-and-shock used by the book?"

Case 1: No, SnS is nerfed.
Pistols: More concealable, "good enough" damage.
Automatics: Good power except against high Hardened Armor nonliving targets (ie, some drones/vehicles), less concealable.
Heavy Weapons: More power, not concealable
Longarms: useless

Case 2: Yes, SnS is used by the book
Pistols: More concealable, but some stuff you just cannot hurt.
Automatics: OK power except against high Hardened Armor nonliving targets and spirits, less concealable
Heavy Weapons: Much more power, not concealable
Longarms: useless.

The three typical ways to go are:
Automatics only, note you need Palming. Get a machine pistol, Ruthenium Coating, sawed-off, and a Lined Coat or something else with the -2 concealment bonus. Use this when you need to sneak a gun in somewhere. Then get an assault rifle loaded up for kicking ass and use this when you don't care how many people can tell you are packing. Also grab a Ares Executive Protector for when you need to kill someone with a briefcase.

If you have either possession adding DV, or SnS not nerfed, this is a good way to go. With neither, you have issues fighting anything with a high level of Hardened Armor, such as armored vehicles/drones or spirits.

Pistols + Heavy Weapons: as above mostly, but replace "machine pistol" with "pistol" and "assualt rifle" with "HMG and a Gauss Rifle". Take note of the pants-on-head-retarded specialization categories for pistols. I recommend a holdout pistol and a Yamaha Sakura Fubuki with SnS, and a Ruger Thunderbolt with Ex-Ex.

The main drawback here is you need 2 weapons skills, not 1.

Pistols only: As above, but no heavy weapons skill. This is comparable to automatics only, except you are trading some power for some concealability. Depending on what your GM is running, it might be "good enough," especially with either un-nerfed SnS, or possession adding DV.
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Post by UmaroVI »

I should note: you can also try shit like "Physical Mask: Someone Not Carrying a Loaded Gauss Rifle." This will get you past some stuff, but not everything, so it's not a good idea to rely on this but it's a good trick to have up your sleeve.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Enhanced Invisibility cast on the weapons or physical mask changing weapons to tools works too.
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TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Captain_Karzak »

I notice that in both Stick-and-shock scenarios, Longarms are judged to be useless. Is that solely because the Gauss Cannon completely dominates the niche sniper rifles otherwise would occupy? If so, would the removal of the gauss cannon cause substantial reevaluation of the usefulness of longarms?

Also, only a completely separate note, that Nosferatu adept build made me take a closer look at the Surge quality from Runner's Companion.

There's an metagenic quality you can pick up called Biosonar which sounds awesome. Is it worth the price? Mages can't even target something unless they can see it, and it seems like biosonar is a very powerful solution to that issue (also I'm trying to avoid bioware and cyberware solutions for reasons not related to min-maxing).
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Post by Stahlseele »

Biosonar is not sight, so technically you can not target stuff with it to cast a spell on it . .
Same reason why UltraSound and Radar does not work.
I think longarms were disregarded because he was trying to sneak stuff in that still packed a punch . . And sneaking something in that's half to three fourths as long as yourself is a bit harder . .
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by UmaroVI »

Basically, longarms blow because you can't conceal longarms, and you can't conceal heavy weapons, but longarms are just less good than heavy weapons in a lot of ways. The gauss rifle is one of the major selling points of heavy weapons+pistols over automatics, but even without it heavy weapons > longarms. Assault Cannons have just as good range as sniper rifles, do more damage, and don't have the drawbacks. Machine guns are better against most targets though. Grenade launchers have some niche uses. Missiles are generally silly because of the goofy scattering rules.

The one argument you can make is that there is that sawed-off shotgun that's a longarm and is concealable, but it is really, really bad, and only relevant if you have longarms but don't have pistols or automatics which is stupid.
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Post by UmaroVI »

With respect to Biosonar, if your GM will let you cast spells through it, which RAW I have no idea about, it's not bad because otherwise you need to spend Essence to do that. Otherwise don't bother and just get a radar scanner or something.
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Post by kzt »

UmaroVI wrote:Basically, longarms blow because you can't conceal longarms, and you can't conceal heavy weapons, but longarms are just less good than heavy weapons in a lot of ways.
Long arms suck in SR because the idiots who wrote the SR core rules don't understand that there really is a major difference between the damage of a rifle and pistol, or a pistol and shotgun. If you make the most common pistol do as much damage as an assault rifle it's pretty pointless to carry an assault rifle.

The comment in NATO Emergency War Surgery 2nd edition on what in SR is an MMG bullet is worth repeating: "The 7.62 NATO soft-point is a popular big game hunting bullet, and although shooting accidents are not infrequent with such rounds, they are rarely seen in the hospital since few victims of torso shots survive. "
Last edited by kzt on Sat May 14, 2011 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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