Redoing the level of blasting spells

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Redoing the level of blasting spells

Post by RobbyPants »

A while back, in the Pathfinder boards, Frank made a post about fixing Evocation by redoing spell levels.  The idea was if you weren't blowing your highest level spell slots on blasting, it might be worth it to use a lower level slot.  Here's his original post:
FrankTrollman wrote:Polar Ray is an insult to god and man. It's not a long legacy, it was introduced in 3.5 and before that it was merely one of several options for the much lower level Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. And of course, in Pathfinder, that would have to be called Freezing Sphere for copyright reasons, but that is neither here nor there.

The point however, is that in the conversion from AD&D to 3e D&D, the amount of hit points and energy resistance that creatures have has increased literally exponentially. And damage output from Evocations has not kept up in the slightest. And while we could plausibly attempt to push the envelope and pump up damage output to match, that would only be an arms race that no one would win.

Evocations in 3rd edition rules are primarily spells which serve to devastate low level opposition or to slowly but surely chip away at the defenses of opponents that pose reasonable threats. These are sometimes valid tactics, but they are not valid tactics to use one's highest level spells to accomplish. It takes a lot of magic missiles to bring down a Shadow, meaning that there is frankly no way that any Wizard is going to have enough spell slots to dedicate to doing that to make it a viable way to eventually beat such an opponent.

So here's the solution: reduce the spell level of these underperforming evocation spells. Since they scale in damage to your level, nothing actually bad happens if you get these spells early. Even a dozen or more levels early is perfectly fine because the damage scales to something level appropriate at low level. A polar ray cast by a 1st level character does just 1d6 of damage - half the damage that the same character could achieve by purchasing a vial of alchemist frost and throwing it at a target (same to-hit roll as well at any kind of close range).

So here's what the Evocation list should look like:

Evocation Cantrips

   * Burning Hands
   * Dancing Lights
   * Light
   * Magic Missile
   * Shocking Grasp


Evocation 1st Level Spells

   * Fireball
   * Floating Disk
   * Gust of Wind
   * Lightning Bolt
   * Polar Ray
   * Sending


Evocation 2nd Level Spells

   * Chain Lightning
   * Cone of Cold
   * Continual Flame
   * Darkness
   * Daylight
   * Flaming Sphere (this spell badly needs to be better than it is, but that's another subject)
   * Scorching Ray
   * Shatter


Evocation 3rd Level Spells

   * Delayed Blast Fireball
   * Ice Storm
   * Shout
   * Tiny Hut
   * Wall of Fire
   * Wind Wall


Evocation 4th Level Spells

   * Fire Shield
   * Interposing Hand
   * Resilient Sphere
   * Wall of Ice

Evocation 5th Level Spells

   * Forceful Hand
   * Freezing Sphere
   * Mage Sword
   * Sunburst
   * Wall of Force


Evocation 6th Level Spells

   * Contingency
   * Grasping Hand
   * Shout, Greater


Evocation 7th Level Spells

   * Clenched Fist
   * Force Cage
   * Prismatic Spray



Evocation 8th Level Spells

   * Crushing Hand
   * Meteor Swarm
   * Telekinetic Sphere


Evocation 9th Level Spells

   * 9th level Spells must be written for this discipline. Seriously, timestop? Shapechange? Wail of the Banshee? Astral Projection? Shades? Weird? Most disciplines have two game defining, god-fighting spells to choose from at 9th level. Evocation hasn't been given anything remotely decent for their top tier, so new, mountain leveling spells must be written for Evokers to have.

There. It's pretty much completely backwards compatible, but nonetheless puts Evokers in at being able to do something legitimately valuable - Killing Fools.

And no, having unlimited magic missiles or shocking grasps is not ungamebalanced at 1st level, or any level. Magic Missile tops out in damage at level 9, when it does 17.5 damage against any opponent who doesn't have concealment, cover, or spell resistance. But at level 9, a Rogue is literally inflicting 17.5 points of sneak attack damage with every single attack. And that's not total damage for the round, that's just the extra damage from a sneak attack. He still gets to do his weapon damage, and make his other attacks for that round. Shocking Grasp is very likely to hit, and it does a d8+1 damage. A Longsword in the hands of a Fighter is also very likely to hit and does a d8+4. While the shocking grasp is quite likely to have a better chance of hitting an orc warrior than the longsword is, it is also much more likely to do insufficient damage to drop the orc. Indeed, the Orc Warrior out of the SRD is more likely to drop in one attack from the 1st level Fighter than he from the 1st level Wizard - even factoring in the discrepancy in hit chances.

And no, casting fireballs at 1st level isn't unbalanced either. At 1st level it only does a d6 of fire damage, it's barely worth doing against many opponents. It certainly isn't putting color spray out of a job.

Now, all in all, I like the idea, but there's still a lot of unfinished work there.  He specifically mentions that one or two good 9th level Evocations need to be created and certain spells (like Flaming Sphere) need to be reworked to be worth while.

Another issue is these are just core spells, but there are plenty of blasting staples from other sources (such as Spell Compendium), and I'm curious where you all think they should go.  Some of the ones that jump out are the Lesser Orb spells and regular Orb spells.  I know these are Conjuration and not Evocation, but they really get left in the dust by changes like these.  It seems the Lesser Orb spells would fall at about 0.5 level, and the regular Orb spells are maybe 1.5 or so maybe just above 2.  What are your thoughts on this?

What about Maw Of Chaos?  It's better than other 9th level blast spells, but I'm still kind of iffy about it (yes, I know it's Abjuration).

What other blasting spells do you like that you think should be reduced?
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Post by hogarth »

The Pathfinder "Words of Power" system has done something like this, although with not much success, IMO. They have various damaging spell bases (e.g. 1d4/level fire, 1d6/level cold + staggered, 1d8/level electricity + deafened) and then you apply an area template on top of that (e.g. Cone, Burst, Line, "Mass"). So it's possible to have a mini-lightning bolt or fireball at level 1, with the damage per level and side effects increasing if you use higher-level effects as your base.
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Post by fectin »

I might bump fireball to second level. Hitting multiple targets is a bit more powerful than single target, it helps the DC a bit, and that way an equal-level rogue's evasion ability is already online.

What if you introduce some mixed-energy spell at 4th (essentially a fireball with admixed sonic, fire, acid, and electricity) to help punch through resistances? Then you can have a storm that does the same thing each round in a large area as a 9th level capstone ("Devastation", maybe).
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Post by RobbyPants »

fectin wrote:I might bump fireball to second level. Hitting multiple targets is a bit more powerful than single target, it helps the DC a bit, and that way an equal-level rogue's evasion ability is already online.
Does this mean Color Spray, Grease, Sleep, and Silent Image should all be 2nd level? I really don't see Fireball being that awesome at 1st level. It does 1d6 damage.

If you drop one of these on a goblin warrior (2-9 HP), you have about a 33.3% chance to drop one. So, if you're fighting a group of three goblins (an EL 1 fight, given that they're CR 1/3), you kill one and injure two (who are still at full fighting potential). Color me unimpressed.

And yes, it is possible, given the area, that you could hit 30 goblins all at once, but then, you're only killing 10 on average, leaving 20 more to murder the 1st level party on their next action, so, that's probably not actually going to come up in a game.

Fireball is fine at 1st level. So... how about those other spells I asked about in the OP?
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

The only potential issue with a 1st level fireball has to do with the size of your battlemat. The 1d6 per level AoE isn't a big deal. Being able to hit things 440' feet away, with an AoE big enough you don't even need to see individual targets opens up some additional battlefield tactics. However since that could happen at 5th level anyway, and the 3.x rules on bows and crossbows give them at least outside chances of returning fire at such ranges, I can't see it as a big deal.
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Post by Ravengm »

Josh_Kablack wrote:The only potential issue with a 1st level fireball has to do with the size of your battlemat. The 1d6 per level AoE isn't a big deal. Being able to hit things 440' feet away, with an AoE big enough you don't even need to see individual targets opens up some additional battlefield tactics. However since that could happen at 5th level anyway, and the 3.x rules on bows and crossbows give them at least outside chances of returning fire at such ranges, I can't see it as a big deal.
This is mostly what I was thinking. The 1d6 to a few enemies (with a save for half) isn't the problem, it's more the range of the spell itself, since most low-level enemies are going to be of the "CHAAAAAARGE!" variety.

It's a lot more anticlimactic to waste a group of goblins before they even get in range/know you're there than to color spray them from 15' away where they can actually do something if they somehow avoid/save.

A fireball with a range of Close or roughly equivalent would probably be better at 1st, and then write up long range fireball or something later on, when long-range tactics aren't nearly as deadly (2nd or 3rd level spell?).

On the other side of things, imagine if the PCs get surprised by a couple of kobolds with Adept/Wizard level(s) in the woods. The ground just suddenly explodes and takes out Tim, the Cowardly Wizard and no one would necessarily know where it came from, much less be able to retaliate in time before a wipe. Kobolds getting lucky with crossbows is bad enough for survivability early on.

It's like walking along in an FPS and suddenly getting sniped; you may or may not know where the shot came from, but you're still dead.
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Post by RobbyPants »

You don't waste a group of goblins. You waste a third of a group of goblins and injure the rest. Those other two thirds: they're at full offensive potential because this is D&D and that's how HP work.

You know what Fireball won't do? Kill a gnoll, or anything else CR 1. It injures mooks really well and wipes the weak ones really well. I don't see people complaining that Grease makes shit slippery really well. It's just what the spell does, and I seriously don't see this as out of line for a 1st level spell.

So, can we get back to talking about what I asked about in the OP: all of those non-core blasting spells?
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Post by fbmf »

Now, all in all, I like the idea, but there's still a lot of unfinished work there. He specifically mentions that one or two good 9th level Evocations need to be created and certain spells (like Flaming Sphere) need to be reworked to be worth while.
We discussed revising Flaming Sphere and ideas for 9th level blast-em spells in this thread:

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=162377

Game On,
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Post by Kaelik »

RobbyPants wrote:You don't waste a group of goblins. You waste a third of a group of goblins and injure the rest. Those other two thirds: they're at full offensive potential because this is D&D and that's how HP work.

You know what Fireball won't do? Kill a gnoll, or anything else CR 1. It injures mooks really well and wipes the weak ones really well. I don't see people complaining that Grease makes shit slippery really well. It's just what the spell does, and I seriously don't see this as out of line for a 1st level spell.

So, can we get back to talking about what I asked about in the OP: all of those non-core blasting spells?
Except that you do that at 440ft, so then, after they move 60ft closer, you do it again, and then they move another 60ft, and you do it again.
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Post by RobbyPants »

How many first level slots does this wizard have? I guess if you have enough scrolls or something.
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Post by Lokathor »

RobbyPants wrote:How many first level slots does this wizard have? I guess if you have enough scrolls or something.
A wand of a first level spell is not an unreasonable thing for an EL 1 force to have amongst itself.
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Post by Omegonthesane »

EL 1 force being the enemy or the party?

Given that a level 0 wand costs more at market price than starting wealth for a 1st level character, the players shouldn't be starting with that shit.

Offhand, worst case plausible scenario is someone point-buying up to 18 then playing a +2 Charisma race for a 20 CHA Sorcerer at level 1, who will then have 5 shots of Fireball. Per day. If he does nothing else.

To be fair, making there be a L1 short- or medium-ranged fireball rather than porting the range down the spell levels with everything else would prevent the issue more easily than GMs having to make every 1st to 3rd level encounter a tense close quarters affair.
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Post by Lokathor »

150gp for a 10 charges fireball wand, not out of line as a treasure for an EL 1, and even something you could buy after just one or two encounters worth of treasure.

-

Personally I'd just make the level 1 version be "fireburst" with smaller range and area, then let fireball be as a "you're 5th level so you get bigger spells" thing. or whatever.

A spell with a 20ft range and 20ft burst would be cool, like a 4e "Close Blast" effect.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Maybe my own anecdotal experiences are getting in the way, here. In your games, what percentage of fights start out between Medium and Long range?

(I'm asking everyone)

To me, Fireball seems like either a limited asset or a downright liability in dungeons. It's cool if you kick open the door and blast everyone in the next room. It's not so cool if people act before you and friend and foe get mixed in the AoE. You have mixed results in towns (assuming you care about the inhabitants). It does deal damage to objects, so you pretty much expect that you're wrecking some buildings. It seems this spell is best suited for wilderness adventures.

In my own experience, outdoors adventures are about a third to half of the adventures, depending on the campaign. Of those, probably less than half occur at Long range. To me, the range and area of Fireball are super-awesome between 10 and 25% of the time.
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Post by RobbyPants »

fbmf wrote:
Now, all in all, I like the idea, but there's still a lot of unfinished work there. He specifically mentions that one or two good 9th level Evocations need to be created and certain spells (like Flaming Sphere) need to be reworked to be worth while.
We discussed revising Flaming Sphere and ideas for 9th level blast-em spells in this thread:

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=162377

Game On,
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Thanks. I'll need to re-read that. I remember some 9th level spell ideas, but I forgot that Flaming Sphere was touched.
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Post by violence in the media »

RobbyPants wrote:Maybe my own anecdotal experiences are getting in the way, here. In your games, what percentage of fights start out between Medium and Long range?
Don't forget you're also supposed to be incorporating a -44 penalty for distance to Spot checks at 440', so I'm not really sure how low level characters even manage to have encounters at that distance. :P

As for the anecdote, in my experience encounters don't start at long range unless one side or the other specifically constructs it to. The only way I've seen to have a happenstance long range encounter is when one group is flying and comes across something on the ground.
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Post by Username17 »

violence in the media wrote:
Don't forget you're also supposed to be incorporating a -44 penalty for distance to Spot checks at 440', so I'm not really sure how low level characters even manage to have encounters at that distance. :P
Yeah, but what if you're using the DMG visibility rules that count down instead of up and you get a +56 bonus to you spot checks because line of sight extends to a thousand feet?

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Post by violence in the media »

FrankTrollman wrote:
violence in the media wrote:
Don't forget you're also supposed to be incorporating a -44 penalty for distance to Spot checks at 440', so I'm not really sure how low level characters even manage to have encounters at that distance. :P
Yeah, but what if you're using the DMG visibility rules that count down instead of up and you get a +56 bonus to you spot checks because line of sight extends to a thousand feet?

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Good point. I didn't Spot those myself in the SRD.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Even if your fights do start out at over 440 feet, is the repeat Fireball problem that much more different than everyone defaulting to "waste it with my crossbow (longbow)"?

A lot of monsters in the MM default to thrown projectiles as their only weapon, which means they can't even interact with you until 150 feet or so, and even then, at a -10 penalty to hit. It seems if they had it in their heads to charge on in, they'd get pincushioned before they could even hurt you.
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Post by fectin »

First level spells still matter at character level 2 (and later, but less so). Just sayin.
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Post by Kaelik »

RobbyPants wrote:Even if your fights do start out at over 440 feet, is the repeat Fireball problem that much more different than everyone defaulting to "waste it with my crossbow (longbow)"?

A lot of monsters in the MM default to thrown projectiles as their only weapon, which means they can't even interact with you until 150 feet or so, and even then, at a -10 penalty to hit. It seems if they had it in their heads to charge on in, they'd get pincushioned before they could even hurt you.
Probably because Fireball takes no range penalties, and a Longbow takes a -8 penalty to all it's attacks, which is kinda a big deal at level 1-5.
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Post by RobbyPants »

fectin wrote:First level spells still matter at character level 2 (and later, but less so). Just sayin.
Yeah. It just gets better at wiping mooks. At CR 2, monsters get more HP again.

Kaelik wrote:Probably because Fireball takes no range penalties, and a Longbow takes a -8 penalty to all it's attacks, which is kinda a big deal at level 1-5.
But it takes -2 at the range when the goblins can even begin to interact with you (at -10). I guess what I'm saying it, if Fireball is awesome because it can destroy guys who trudge at you for several rounds, trying to close the gap, they're pretty well screwed, anyway.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

violence in the media wrote:Don't forget you're also supposed to be incorporating a -44 penalty for distance to Spot checks at 440', so I'm not really sure how low level characters even manage to have encounters at that distance. :P
Well you send the rogue (Who has UMD) to scout ahead, loaning him a wand of Glitterdust and instructions to highlight a target in the most flammable area of the enemy camp...
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Post by Ravengm »

RobbyPants wrote:Maybe my own anecdotal experiences are getting in the way, here. In your games, what percentage of fights start out between Medium and Long range?
Not many.

My point was more that if you're outdoors, then if you have a 440' range spell that doesn't require you to see a specific target (only a place nearby), then you're encouraging the long-range sniping game.

Basically this sort of thing:
Josh_Kablack wrote:Well you send the rogue (Who has UMD) to scout ahead, loaning him a wand of Glitterdust and instructions to highlight a target in the most flammable area of the enemy camp...
Which is cool and tactical, but trivializes a lot of potential encounters.
RobbyPants wrote:But it takes -2 at the range when the goblins can even begin to interact with you (at -10). I guess what I'm saying it, if Fireball is awesome because it can destroy guys who trudge at you for several rounds, trying to close the gap, they're pretty well screwed, anyway.
I agree. There are a couple tactical differences that change the situation though:
1.) If they're not mindless, they'll probably try to find cover from arrows, which doesn't really matter against fireball. Those initial arrow volleys will have a decent chance of missing, as well, which gives them warning and time to hide.
2.) They can whip out something ranged as well if it's a bowfight, which is more or less an even game at that range at low levels since no one has a BAB worth mentioning anyway.

If we're talking about a fight on a flat, open plain... then yeah, there's totally not much of a difference. But once people have the option of taking cover while advancing, fireball is a much better offensive choice.

Also, on topic of the OP:

I'd put the Orbs at or above 2nd level. They don't require a save for the damage and come with a rider effect that actually is useful (e.g. stun, daze).

There are various Hand spells that could very well be as crappy as their PHB counterparts, I honestly can't remember.

Some of the spells that do force damage are too high level for the crappy amounts of damage they do. For instance, Vortex of Teeth should be lower.

I can't think of any others off the top of my head right now.

Edit: Fixed tags
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

RobbyPants wrote:Maybe my own anecdotal experiences are getting in the way, here. In your games, what percentage of fights start out between Medium and Long range?
Probably upwards of 50%, but I'm pretty sure my experience is biased due to having a more than one game host who has built their own custom game table in efforts to outdo each other.

In the entirety of Dragon_Child's Sharn Watch Game, we used a 36x24 battlemat, and only twice in like 16 sessions was there a combat where any of the combatants went of the edge (one of which involved freefall). I suspect that experience is more typical.
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