There's a 3rd Edition Mutants & Masterminds?!

[Aryxbez]

Well, I found out about a month ago or so, that there was a more latest edition to Mutants & Masterminds, and had wondered why I never heard of it. Especially considering I only owned the 2nd edition to it, and I found that there doesn't appear to be any threads here regarding it. I believe I found out through their forums, when I was searching like a D&D conversion (4th, 3.5 or whatever), to M&M, and some thread converting 4th edition monsters with their 3rd edition rules.

Anyway, I've wondered if anyone has checked out the 3rd edition of M&M, how it stands as an RPG, as well how it compares to the prior edition. Of course, given critical nature of this forum, I hope to basically see how much it sucks, and if it'd be a viable game to run as a D&D campaign. Since campaign will be running into higher levels, want a game that'll actually represent, and handle well enough such higher powerlevels. Since 3.5 high levels have their own issues don't care for (lack of rules mastery on my part as well), and 4th edition, concept of that just plain doesn't exist...

What I do know of 3rd M&M, is that apparently extended attributes, essentially splitting Dexterity into three ability scores. Why in the hell they felt that was a good decision I can't say I know. However apparently 4th edition stuff can be converted to it interestingly enough, but that's about the only appeal I know for it with me.

So, any thoughts on how much 3rd edition M&M blows, maybe even Lago has some insight? (recall him being familiar with the rules of M&M)

[hogarth]

I never heard of it, either. Is this different from the DC Heroes RPG that they put out?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I was actually debating putting up a thread on this subject for a couple of days, myself.

DC Adventures is apparently the same ruleset, but I haven't gone over it to verify.

It's still a point buy effect driven game where there are multiple spending options to achieve a given effect, offering such as a nod to verisimilitude within whatever genre conventions a particular game chooses to cleave to. Players and GM have to decide just what degree of bullshit is acceptable in a given game, and then creation is just a matter of meeting one's power level limits and customizing from there.

Power level limits are defined differently in 3rd edition. At PL 10 saves and ability bonus limits are 5 points lower, and skill caps are 10 lower. Defense is split into ranged/melee(which you might as well sack for as much Toughness as possible) and Agility was split from Dexterity. It takes considerable focus on a ability to make spending points on raising it cost-effective, save Stamina.

The powers are streamlined, and the section on applying modifers is a bit more robust, but it's still wide open to abuse. Put as much as possible into arrays and containers (even though they're not called that anymore). Combine limited Quickness with Artificer/Ritualist/Inventor to have PL+10 points available each to change around as a free action (which was fixed in the 2e FAQ), Hell, a Hard-to-Remove Device with Variable Power nets one a 4.16% return on PP invested, and allows for any effects under a given descriptor. Of course, the book recommends not using Variable Power, save as a 'last resort'.

In short, yeah, it's still Champions-Lite.

Edit: Here's a technowizard based on one by Virgil from a thread on here for 2E.

Str 0
Sta 10
Agl 0
Dex 0
Fgt 0
Int 0
Awe 0
Pre 0

Dodge 0
Fortitude 10(sta)
Parry 0
Toughness 20 (Impervious)
Will 10

Skills
expertise magic 20
technology 20

Advantages
Equipment 2, Luck, Artificer, Inventor, Jack of All Trades, Ritualist, Skill Mastery (expertise: magic, technology)

Powers
Quickness (limited to expertise: magic) 21
Alternate Effect: Quickness (limited to technology) 21
Immortality 1
Immunity 1 (Aging)
Movement Dimensional Travel 1 (HQ Pocket Dimension)

Devices (magic items)
Enhanced Advantages: Accurate Attack, Power Attack, Precise Attack 2, Seize Initiative, Takedown, Uncanny Dodge
Enhanced Stamina 10
Enhanced Will 10
Immunity 15 (life support, interaction skills) 15
Impervious Toughness 20x
Protection 10
Magic Array (53 points: 4 powers, each focusing on either Fortitude, Dodge, Will, or Toughness, examples coming shortly)

Headquarters: Size:Small Toughness:6 Features:Concealed, Defense System(20 point, +10 attack), Dimensional Portal, Isolated, Library, Living Space, Power System, Sealed, Self-Repairing, Workshop

Abilities 0 Powers 13 (Items:108) Advantages 9 Skills 20 Defenses 0 = 150

[Juton]

I've played a lot of 2e but I haven't made the jump to 3e yet. 3e uses the same mechanics as 2e but adds a few different attributes and changes how skills work. They've also toned down the most abusable powers. The way power levels work means that their is a guideline for how powerful a character should be, so a casual gamer can make an effective character but since it's a point buy system you'll still need the MC to put a hold on optimizers.

As a D&D game, it could work. If by D&D you meant kind of generic fantasy, then M&M can do that, it just gets weird if you want your Wizard to have Vancian casting. I can think of a few ways to do it, so it's possible. I've always wanted to see a bunch of grognards try this actually. Say two of them want to play a non-magical fighter and a monk, they each get the standard 150 points, what would they spend them on?

They didn't split Dex into three stats, only two, dexterity and agility. The other new stat, fighting, kind of replaces/augments attack bonus, in M&M 2e dex didn't apply to attack bonuses, not even with a feat. In 2e M&M dexterity was a kind of Uber stat, it added to a lot of useful skills, reflex saves, armour class, initiative and probably something else I'm forgetting. Splitting those abilities up between two stats makes a degree of sense.

[TheWorid]

I never heard of it, either. Is this different from the DC Heroes RPG that they put out?

DC Heroes is exactly the same ruleset, just with different branding.

[hogarth]

I never heard of it, either. Is this different from the DC Heroes RPG that they put out?

DC Heroes is exactly the same ruleset, just with different branding.

Okay, then I have heard of it, albeit nothing particularly specific.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Haven't played nor seen 3rd Edition M&M, but I have played 2nd Edition M&M and witnessed a few games both online and offline.

My verdict? Barely passable. It's a fairly balanced game, but the balance comes at the cost of kludging together special effects. The fact that a DM will rarely have to line item veto character sheets is a plus, but it comes at the cost of powers being functionally identical. This is exacerbated by the fact that melee combat simply does not effectively exist in the game. People move so fast and freely about the battlefield and there is such a lack of relevant terrain effects and Zone of Control that you may as well have Final Fantasy-styled combat screen voids. Which would be fine for a space combat game, but not a superhero game. This is further aggravated by the stunting system. The stunting system is arranged in such a way that you can situationally use any power you want at a minor penalty as long as you can justify it. For example, if you're using Sound Blasts against incorporeal ghosts you can still attack them by 'modulating the frequency'. If your super-strong character is being thwarted by an energy field, you simply punch so hard that it creates a shockwave that resonates with the field and gives you some time to slip through.

It sounds like this is a good system to encourage creativity but you've already noticed the problems with it. To be good in Mutants and Masterminds you pump up numbers to cover all your numerical bases and expected obstacles (ranged attack power, flight, obstacle bypassing, perception powers) and pick up powers that can't really be easily justified through stunting. Meaning that if your character concept is 'magician' or 'super-scientist' or 'do-anything robot' you're the fucking shit while if your concept is 'Wolverine Clone' or 'Superstrong Bruiser' you're fucked.

There are also some problematic artifacts from the d20 system. You're allowed to spend power points on skills but with the stunting and power system there's barely a point to it unless you're picking up a general-purpose skill like Diplomacy. There's also the four-defense system; if someone can tell me the difference between Toughness and Fortitude I'll eat my hat. It's also pointless because it's easy to construct save-or-sucks that target one defense. Since the game whines about being able to cover all of your bases, it's generally a good idea to kick yourself in the shorts in one area to throw the DM off of the trail and invest in a non-numeric defense like Illusions or Incorporeality.

Moreover there's the fact that it very poorly renders superhero fights. Focus firing is ridiculously powerful and easy in this system and would be the go-to tactic if it wasn't even easier to construct 'hit everything' powers. Because it uses a hard cap based on the d20 system and bonuses are strictly linear in that game, having 'mastermind' fights where Onslaught fights the Avenger has a very small zone between 'laughable curbstomp' and 'OMG Impervious Toughness you assholes', especially if you give the character defense weaknesses.

I wouldn't say that it's strictly better than using Magical Tea Party. The d20 resolution system combined with the swingy health track condition can generate some surprising results like a second-string baddie knocking out the hero with one lucky strike so it's not completely deterministic. This is the only thing that really saves the system from being an Exalted 2Eish 'put everyone's numbers in a graphing calculator to get odds, then roll a percentile die' because tactics mean so little in the system.

[Swordslinger]

Moreover there's the fact that it very poorly renders superhero fights. Focus firing is ridiculously powerful and easy in this system and would be the go-to tactic if it wasn't even easier to construct 'hit everything' powers.

How exactly would you stop focus firing anyway?

[Juton]

Meaning that if your character concept is 'magician' or 'super-scientist' or 'do-anything robot' you're the fucking shit while if your concept is 'Wolverine Clone' or 'Superstrong Bruiser' you're fucked.

I really disagree with this. I've played dozens of campaigns in M&M and 'Superstrong Bruiser' is not a bad concept, if you build in the right abilities. You have a large degree of battlefield control because you can pick up and throw enemies, if you're using the knockback rules you can even do this as part of a punch. Your only real weakness is willpower, but since buying up superstrength isn't terribly expensive, if you can justify it your character can have saves that matter and be immune to most minions.

The archetypes you've mentioned being good, Magician, Super-Scientist, variable Robot are good, maybe even better then playing just a character with super strength, but in play the gap is not so large that one player feels like he's nurse-maiding his group and no one should feel useless.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Moreover there's the fact that it very poorly renders superhero fights. Focus firing is ridiculously powerful and easy in this system and would be the go-to tactic if it wasn't even easier to construct 'hit everything' powers.

How exactly would you stop focus firing anyway?

Either give a bonus to attack and damage for being disengaged (no one is attacking you with single target maneuvers) or get rid of critical existence failure.

RE: Juton

True, if your imagination is big enough and/or your TM is not a sticker for realism you can get by with anything but it is generally easier to justify off the wall stunts if you have a broad plutonium source. Both to tax your brain less and to avoid "lol no that would offend my grognard sensibilities" cockblocking from the Maim Master.

[Quantumboost]

or get rid of critical existence failure.

This, especially in a dicepool system. If you give out wound penalties and have your damage output based superlinearly on the number of net hits, it is very much in your best interests to be fighting 10 guys at (say) 25% damage output than 5 guys at 100% damage output.

The engagement thing works similarly well in theory, though I don't recall any game systems I've played where that was in effect, and is probably easier to implement in roll vs. DC systems. Both options can be further enhanced against focus fire by having abilities contingent on having a threshold of health (i.e. Link shooting energy beams from his sword) or abilities that only work when unengaged/work on all beings specifically engaged with you (Aimed Shot, Holy Avenger).

[Swordslinger]

Either give a bonus to attack and damage for being disengaged (no one is attacking you with single target maneuvers) or get rid of critical existence failure.

The problem with the disengaged mechanic is that it makes it almost impossible to fight multiple people.

And I'd think wound penalties would have to be super steep to avoid people just wanting to finish off enemies.

[Gx1080]

Moreover there's the fact that it very poorly renders superhero fights. Focus firing is ridiculously powerful and easy in this system and would be the go-to tactic if it wasn't even easier to construct 'hit everything' powers.

How exactly would you stop focus firing anyway?

Either give a bonus to attack and damage for being disengaged (no one is attacking you with single target maneuvers) or get rid of critical existence failure.

RE: Juton

True, if your imagination is big enough and/or your TM is not a sticker for realism you can get by with anything but it is generally easier to justify off the wall stunts if you have a broad plutonium source. Both to tax your brain less and to avoid "lol no that would offend my grognard sensibilities" cockblocking from the Maim Master.

That isn't as much of a problem as you think. People tend to have an inability to take superhero games seriously, or tend to not play them while sober.

Besides "comic book logic" is still an oxymoron.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The problem with the disengaged mechanic is that it makes it almost impossible to fight multiple people.

That's the intended effect. Mooks become a lot more dangerous if they get to swarm you or attack from a safe position. You either need to get some characters on them (and they might even have a couple of powers or class features like 'engages an enemy'), block them off, turbonuke them quickly, or just suck it up.

[Swordslinger]

That's the intended effect. Mooks become a lot more dangerous if they get to swarm you or attack from a safe position. You either need to get some characters on them (and they might even have a couple of powers or class features like 'engages an enemy'), block them off, turbonuke them quickly, or just suck it up.

Yeah, the problem is that a lot of the time, the PCs are outnumbered.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Yeah, the problem is that a lot of the time, the PCs are outnumbered.

And it's something the PCs will either have to account for and counter or they'll pay the Leeroy Jenkins price for not thinking about what they're doing.

[mean_liar]

MnM3e is basically MnM2e+Ultimate Power, rolled into one text, presented cleanly.

There are tweaks which others already noted, and I haven't played enough with it to know which others exist.

The DC Heroes RPG is a different system. DC Adventures is the title of the MnM3e licensed release, but DC Heroes was an older point-based system that started under Mayfair ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Heroes ) and went through a few other incarnations.

[Dogbert]

I posted a point-by-point review of 3E a while ago at my webcomic. Here's my review for those who are familiar with 2E:

Progression tables folded into a single Measurements table: GOOD (1).

No more “Take 20”: Undecided (0).

+5 cap to circumstantial modifiers removes a big deal of tactical elements from the game and makes it more level-dependant: BAD (-1).

Said +5 cap is also but a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things when traits’ max numbers have been raised to twice the campaign’s Power Level: BAD (-1).

Said increase in traits’ cap to twice the Power Level completely destroys all criteria for Power Level benchmarking and evaluating what’s a “level-appropiate” challenge: VERY BAD (-2).

Unnecessary changes in nomenclature because, at heart, the system is still d20 with the serial numbers filed off: MEH (0).

All of the basic rules are put together at the start for ease of reference: GOOD (1).

Grouped Conditions and Mixed Conditions become a cross-reference hell: BAD (-1).

Extra Effort is now free and improved: GOOD (1).

FATE-influenced “Edit a Scene” use for Hero Points: VERY GOOD (2).

Re-roll via Hero Points is now actually meaningful: VERY GOOD (2).

Default starting Power Level contextually devaluated from “X-Men” to “Teen Titans:” BAD (-1).

Drawbacks abolished to eliminate redundancy with Complications: VERY GOOD (2).

Player characters are forced to take a minimum of 2 Complications and 1 Motivation: VERY GOOD (2).

Dexterity AND Agility AND Fighting like we were back in the 80’s: MEH (0).

Skill-folding to Planck’s Unit a-la 4E: GOOD (1).

Improved Critical capped to a max of 4 ranks: GOOD (1).

Grappling was completely nerfed regarding opponents with equal fighting ability, making Royce Gracie cry: VERY BAD (-2).

Grappling was also heavily taxed with several feats: BAD (-1).

Interpose works properly now: GOOD (1).

The abstraction logic in power effects is less explicit now: BAD (-1).

Mind Reading is now an opposed roll and subject to Degrees of Success: VERY GOOD (2).

Nerfed Impervious Protection, rendering it superfluous for any level-relevant challenges: BAD (-1).

Multi-Attack now allows for Cover Fire too: GOOD (1).

Eliminated the Progression power feat (and with it all the cheesing that took place): GOOD (1).

Power Flaws are more descriptive now: GOOD (1).

Equipment can now be replaced like Devices, making them meaningful: VERY GOOD (2).

The Permanent flaw no longer requires paradoxical maxing of Duration first: GOOD (1).

Table of sample environmental hazards with level: VERY GOOD (1).

For some reason they hid the Damage table inside the Powers chapter: BAD (1).

Removed Attacks of Opportunity, rendering plenty of 1-1 combat strategies (like Trip) useless: VERY BAD (-2).

[Kaelik]

What did they change about impervious?

[Dogbert]

Impervious now only shrugs off attacks worth half your level in Protection (as opposed to your level, in 2E).

[Kaelik]

Impervious now only shrugs off attacks worth half your level in Protection (as opposed to your level, in 2E).

That is in fact retarded and you might as well not have an impervious option.

[Juton]

I posted a point-by-point review of 3E[/url] a while ago at my webcomic. Here's my review for those who are familiar with 2E:

Said increase in traits’ cap to twice the Power Level completely destroys all criteria for Power Level benchmarking and evaluating what’s a “level-appropiate” challenge: VERY BAD (-2).

Re-roll via Hero Points is now actually meaningful: VERY GOOD (2).

Grappling was completely nerfed regarding opponents with equal fighting ability, making Royce Gracie cry: VERY BAD (-2).

Grappling was also heavily taxed with several feats: BAD (-1).

Interpose works properly now: GOOD (1).

Removed Attacks of Opportunity, rendering plenty of 1-1 combat strategies (like Trip) useless: VERY BAD (-2).

I've just quoted the points I disagree with. Some of these indicate that you've never played 2e M&M. I'll answer these in order.

Power level works just as it did in 2e, except it's a bit more restrictive. In 2e your Fortitude + Willpower saves could be as high as you wanted them to be, now in 3e they have to add up to twice your power level or less. They've also tweaked how high a skill check you're allowed to have. All the other factors such as Attack/Damage, Dodge/Toughness are the same as they where in 2e.

In 2e if you used a Hero point your reroll would always be 11+. The uses of Hero points doesn't look to have changed. There isn't much if any difference between 2e and 3e.

I don't know what you're on about with grappling, you don't need any feats to do it.

As above.

Interpose worked in 2e, in fact it worked a little bit better because you could interpose those AoEs and perception range attacks.

There has never been attacks of opportunity in Mutants and Masterminds, at least in the core book.

[Dogbert]

Some of these indicate that you've never played 2e M&M.

I invite you to re-read more thoroughly, both my reply, 2E, and 3E.

Power level works just as it did in 2e.

No, it doesn't.

In 2E, most of your traits had a max cap of the game's PL (except for skills and saves, which had a cap of PL+5). In 3E, the cap if TWICE the PL, they just made the Tradeoffs optional rule now a default part (i.e: your attack bonus and damage output for any given power cannot exceed twice the PL, same with Defense and Toughness).

In 2e if you used a Hero point your reroll would always be 11+.

And in 3E you can now re-roll as an Extra Effort (which is free other than fatiguing the character).

I don't know what you're on about with grappling, you don't need any feats to do it.

You clearly haven't read 3E right, since in 3E you now need a feat for the mere purpose of inflicting damage in a grapple, and now escaping a grapple is no longer a contested roll (and in fact, all you need to roll on the die is a 10 to escape it).

Interpose worked in 2e

...just on -adjacent- allies, which amounts to jackshit if Superman needs to take a bullet to protect a bystander just a few meters away. In 3E, on the other side, you can protect anyone within your movement range.

There has never been attacks of opportunity in Mutants and Masterminds, at least in the core book.

Well, the Mastermind's Manual was published by G.R, so if that doesn't count as canon then I don't know what does.

RTM.

[Juton]

Some of these indicate that you've never played 2e M&M.

I invite you to re-read more thoroughly, both my reply, 2E, and 3E.

Power level works just as it did in 2e.

No, it doesn't.

In 2E, most of your traits had a max cap of the game's PL (except for skills and saves, which had a cap of PL+5). In 3E, the cap if TWICE the PL, they just made the Tradeoffs optional rule now a default part (i.e: your attack bonus and damage output for any given power cannot exceed twice the PL, same with Defense and Toughness).

Trade offs in 2e where part of the regular rules, nothing denotes it is an optional rule.

In 2e if you used a Hero point your reroll would always be 11+.

And in 3E you can now re-roll as an Extra Effort (which is free other than fatiguing the character).

You can only reroll certain powers with Extra Effort. Actually only powers that require an effect roll can be rerolled, which is pretty limited.

I don't know what you're on about with grappling, you don't need any feats to do it.

You clearly haven't read 3E right, since in 3E you now need a feat for the mere purpose of inflicting damage in a grapple, and now escaping a grapple is no longer a contested roll (and in fact, all you need to roll on the die is a 10 to escape it).

You are hindered and vulnerable while grabbing and holding an opponent. You can maintain a successful grab as a free action each turn, but cannot perform other actions requiring the use of your grabbing limb(s) while doing so. Since maintaining a grab is a free action, you can take a standard action to inflict your Strength damage to a grabbed target on subsequent turns after the grab is established.

What you meant to say is that you require a feat to do damage in the same round you start a grapple.

You attempt to escape from a successful grab (see Grab). Make a check of your Athletics or Acrobatics against the routine check result of your opponent’s Strength or grab effect rank. If you succeed, you end the grab and can move away from your opponent, up to your normal ground speed minus one rank, if you choose. If you fail, you are still grabbed.

You don't have to beat a 10, you have to beat a 10+Enemy Grapple Bonus.

Looks like you're wrong on both of those points.

Interpose worked in 2e

...just on -adjacent- allies, which amounts to jackshit if Superman needs to take a bullet to protect a bystander just a few meters away. In 3E, on the other side, you can protect anyone within your movement range.

In 2e Interpose also worked on AoEs and Perception attacks, so it's a lateral shift. 3e Interpose gives you a longer leash, 2e Interpose worked on more effects.

There has never been attacks of opportunity in Mutants and Masterminds, at least in the core book.

Well, the Mastermind's Manual was published by G.R, so if that doesn't count as canon then I don't know what does.

RTM.

That makes no sense. If M&M was written by Monte Cook, Jonathan Tweet or Skip Williams that would be a lame joke, right now that's just nonsense.

[Kaelik]

Power level works just as it did in 2e.

No, it doesn't.

In 2E, most of your traits had a max cap of the game's PL (except for skills and saves, which had a cap of PL+5). In 3E, the cap if TWICE the PL, they just made the Tradeoffs optional rule now a default part (i.e: your attack bonus and damage output for any given power cannot exceed twice the PL, same with Defense and Toughness).

Yeah... Power level trading already worked that way in 2e. It wasn't optional to be able to trade off for example, defense for toughness.

In fact, that's probably why they made the toughness change, because if possible an impervious toughness of 15 for a PL 10 character rendered you immune to most mooks, and usually immune to regular characters unless they power attacked or something.