Why are Dragons's under CRd?

[darkmaster]

So, I'm looking to join a game (play by post) that's going to be having allot of monsters as characters, it's a planescape game and the GM wants to focus on outsiders. Because outsiders tend to have really high LA the GM's using the CR+1 option for monsters as characters presented in the tomes.

One of the players, having missed the note about the system being used, decided they'd like to play a dragon, but couldn't find the LA for older than juvenile, or something, because it's not listed anywhere.

Being a good Samaritan, and wanting things to go as quickly as possible (the GM's not on too much) I pointed out the adjustment system being used, but she argued she doesn't want to use the CR+1 option because "A dragon's CR is higher than its level adjustment" this is true, and I can certainly understand the concern, but I felt I should point out that yes, outsider's LAs are to high, but on the other end of that spectrum the power of dragons are underestimated.

Now other than vaguely motioning at the stats of dragons in general and saying "That" I can't very well articulate why dragon CRs are out of whack. So, why is that?

[BearsAreBrown]

Dragons are boss encounters and WotC doesn't understand how CR is supposed to work.

[Krusk]

IIRC Dragons are under CR-ed because the game is dungeons and dragons. The designers wanted dragons to be something awe/fear inspiring, and so they purposefully made them stronger than indicated CR to reflect that.

Stats wise its thanks to the fairly nice spellcasting, huge hit die, good bab and wide selection of other stuff tacked on.

[RadiantPhoenix]

By default, ECL = LA + HD, so you're still winning by using CR+1.

[Vnonymous]

Using level adjustment at all is a bad idea. Replace level adjustment with hitdice instead and a lot of problems will go away.

Really, a lot of the time levels in pc classes are just flat out better than being a monster. There are exceptions(dragons and outsiders are the big ones, funnily enough), but the existing system just makes playing anything but a base race a really bad idea.

[tussock]

Dragons were under CR so that DMs new to 3e would all TPK via Dragon. After all, dragons are an end-boss, so you better use an EL = APL+4 encounter, right? Haw haw.

[shadzar]

dont forget dragons, being the namesake of the game creature, were beefed up in 2nd as well. it seems they just want people to remember that when you face a dragon... the game is on!

didnt 4th also beef dragons up even more?

ok, we get it... the game is called dungeons and DRAGONS...now start making sensible monsters!

[Koumei]

Well in 2E, the dragon could practically one-shot the party with a single breath-weapon use, unless I'm fabulously mistaken.

In 3E... yeah, the problem with them is well-documented.

In 4E, they have about 8.3 trillion hit points each. Not sure if they deal horrendous damage or whatever, but killing them can take so long it has commercial breaks.

[Shadow Balls]

Well in 2E, the dragon could practically one-shot the party with a single breath-weapon use, unless I'm fabulously mistaken.

In 3E... yeah, the problem with them is well-documented.

In 4E, they have about 8.3 trillion hit points each. Not sure if they deal horrendous damage or whatever, but killing them can take so long it has commercial breaks.

It's true. 10d10+20 is a lot when you only have 9 or 10 HD, even if your level is higher than 9 or 10. And reduced bonuses from Con.

In 3.x though dragons are strong but overhyped. They can do several different things, but only one of those things at a time. The breath weapons are quite weak, and the spells are multiple levels behind so that just leaves them meleeing.

[violence in the media]

In 3.x though dragons are strong but overhyped. They can do several different things, but only one of those things at a time. The breath weapons are quite weak, and the spells are multiple levels behind so that just leaves them meleeing.

Dragons don't melee. They strafe the opposition if given the opportunity and there's no credible counter from the target or they snatch a single opponent and fly away with their superspeed to murder them privately.

[...You Lost Me]

Also, "buffs fucking stack" as Ubernoob once said. At the very least, a mid-CR dragon who wants melee with be preparing wraithstrike for touch AC rape on every attack.

[Shadow Balls]

In 3.x though dragons are strong but overhyped. They can do several different things, but only one of those things at a time. The breath weapons are quite weak, and the spells are multiple levels behind so that just leaves them meleeing.

Dragons don't melee. They strafe the opposition if given the opportunity and there's no credible counter from the target or they snatch a single opponent and fly away with their superspeed to murder them privately.

It's strafing us? Sweet, it does low damage and we get several free rounds before it does anything else.

The penalty to move while grappling and not count as grappling is so high that by the time the dragon can do it, you have FoM and don't care.

That leaves it with trying to full attack and getting murdered by focused attacks.

As I said, they're tough but overrated.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I think it's accurate to say that dragons don't stay still if they can avoid it. At least when I play them, they melee (unless I'm specifically giving my players a break, spring attack and flyby attack are usually taken as feats.) Staying still is silly when you have a movement of 100+, but melee happens.

[Kaelik]

It's strafing us? Sweet, it does low damage and we get several free rounds before it does anything else.

The penalty to move while grappling and not count as grappling is so high that by the time the dragon can do it, you have FoM and don't care.

You have 4 people, one of them has a few spells a day, many of which won't even effect the dragon. One of whom has to be within 30ft to do any serious damage, and two of which who effectively can't hurt a dragon unless you specifically built them as archers.

A CR 5 Very Young Red Dragon does 22 average damage, and then comes back and does it again. You get 1 attack with everyone who is an archer against it's 18 AC. Then you have a few rounds to do what? Cower? Try to find a cave to hide in? Run away? That's called losing.

Then it comes back and does it again. If you don't have a Cleric Archer or two, or a Wizard who can cast spells that take down the dragon, you lose. And you probably don't have that.

If you did have that, it would move to plan B, use it's +19 grapple modifier to grapple the Wizard or rogue, then fly 70ft next turn.

I really hope you don't have any small sized characters, because if you do, it just flies up to the halfling rogue, grapples him, and then flies off into the sunset, because he could absolutely take a -20 penalty to his grapple checks, and probably still beat your Wizard or Rogue.

So yes... You have a Wizard being flown 70ft a turn, and you can sort of run along using the run action to keep up... until you reach any difficult terrain of any kind, or a cliff, or anything else that results in the dragon continuing to fly off and you not taking any more run actions.

But yeah, I'm sure your 1d8+3 damage against AC 18 from two party members is totally going to take away 95 HP before he can kill your entire party with 22 damage save for half cone that hits two of you at a time.

[cthulhudarren]

Dragons should be totally badassed IMHO. But I grew up reading Tolkien, where dragons destroyed entire cities and civilizations. To me they are campaign climax type bosses and without planning and tactics, PCs would have little chance of winning.

YMMV

[Shadow Balls]

Most standard save or loses still work fine. Meanwhile after the first time at most the dragon is stuck doing minor damage to one person once every few rounds. You're doing more to it than it is doing to you.

If it tries the grapple trick, that only works if you let it live until round 2, at least. Except that this is D&D, and when you have 4 people ganging up on one guy the only way they live that long is if they are near immune to the entire party. Dragons are tough, but I don't see the level 5 dragon having an AC of 30-35 and saves of 15-20 across the board. And that means you are able to get enough through to kill it quite easily.

Breath attacks are just too slow to pose a threat. The spells are behind multiple levels if they even have any. And that just leaves full attacks, which have their own problems. Choosing between three weak things isn't really any better than just getting one weak thing. And that is why dragons are overhyped.

[Previn]

Stuff

I'm guessing you haven't actually played 3.x?

[Kaelik]

Most standard save or loses still work fine. Meanwhile after the first time at most the dragon is stuck doing minor damage to one person once every few rounds. You're doing more to it than it is doing to you.

If it tries the grapple trick, that only works if you let it live until round 2, at least. Except that this is D&D, and when you have 4 people ganging up on one guy the only way they live that long is if they are near immune to the entire party. Dragons are tough, but I don't see the level 5 dragon having an AC of 30-35 and saves of 15-20 across the board. And that means you are able to get enough through to kill it quite easily.

Breath attacks are just too slow to pose a threat. The spells are behind multiple levels if they even have any. And that just leaves full attacks, which have their own problems. Choosing between three weak things isn't really any better than just getting one weak thing. And that is why dragons are overhyped.

Seriously, what Previn said.

Most standard save or loses at level 5 are:

1) Glitterdust, dragon flies away, and is fine, comes back in five rounds when it's not blind.
2) Slow, Dragon flies away, comes back in five rounds.
3) Stinking Cloud, Dragon flies away, comes back in 1d4+1 rounds

And that's assuming it fails the save, which is not even likely given that it has saves of 10/7/8, and you have a DC 18 on your 3rd level spells if you had an 18 and a race that boosts your casting stat.

The dragon is not doing minor damage to one person, it has a cone that does 22 damage, your fucking Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian with 18 str is still rolling a 2d6+13 before power attack, if he uses one of his two rages, and that's only 20 average damage. Meanwhile, the Dragon has 95 HP, and so he can actually take that charge twice over, and then fly off with the Wizard or Rogue dangling. He can also out grapple the Barbarian while he's raging and do the same thing.

The party meanwhile has a Wizard with 30 HP at best, and the rogue with maybe 35.

Once again, you keep whining about how slow breath weapons are, it's like you can't read. They fly over, and fire breath a couple party members from where your stupid Barbarian can't even hit it. Then it grapples one person, and flies 45ft straight up, until it's 210ft above the ground, then it drops them, and they die. Then it does it again. If it fails a save, it just flies straight up, until it's out of range of anything you have, which is the first round, then it comes back down and dive bombs you all over again, doing 22 damage from where you can't reach it, and then grappling, and dropping another dumbass. It can do this until you run away like little bitches. Because it has AC 18 and 95 Hp, and you are trying to kill it with bows that do 1d8+3 damage on a successful hit.

You have clearly never played against a CR 5 Very Young Adult Dragon who used these tactics at all, much less as one of the four encounters of that day.

You clearly just run your mouth about how more than half the Wizard's HP is piddly damage, because you are incapable of realizing that if it's used twice, the Wizard is fucking dead, and the Wizard doesn't have anything that can actually stop the Dragon from using it twice.

[Shadow Balls]

Stuff

I'm guessing you haven't actually played 3.x?

Plenty of times. More than enough to kill off quite a few dragons. Interestingly enough, not a single one of them ever killed a single person, which is more than can be said of enemy spellcasters and even random nobody archers.

Kaelik: While it is flying away, you murder it. It breathes on the party, and everyone attacks it. Then it grabs someone and flies up a little (its maneuverability is way too bad to fly straight up) and everyone attacks it again. And by this point it's taken two rounds of attacks from the entire party. Then the third round it ascends, except it probably can't go anywhere near as high as you claim because maneuverability doesn't fucking work that way, and the entire party attacks it again, at which point unless the party is full of basket weavers it dies, the falling guy is saved by Feather Fall, and the looting commences. AC 18 is about nothing at this level. 95 HP is above average but still easily sliced through.

I've also fought multiple CR 5 dragons. Interestingly enough, they all got 1 or 2 rounded by level 5 parties without accomplishing anything much, and that with a dozen other enemies on the field all doing stuff as well. Interestingly enough, it didn't even become remotely challenging unless it was replaced with a CR 8 next category up dragon, AND the other encounters were improved while the party remained level 5. For fuck's sake, a mother fucking Tanglefoot Bag works on them. Which means you knock the dumb dragon out of the sky, with a readied action if need be, and then you beat it down like a disobedient hooker that used her teeth.

The damage is piddly because it gives you multiple free rounds to remove it.

Let me guess: You think RHoD is the hardest module ever right? Because if so, it shows what a shitty player you are. Any decent one facerolls the content there.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik: While it is flying away, you murder it. It breathes on the party, and everyone attacks it. Then it grabs someone and flies up a little (its maneuverability is way too bad to fly straight up) and everyone attacks it again. And by this point it's taken two rounds of attacks from the entire party. Then the third round it ascends, except it probably can't go anywhere near as high as you claim because maneuverability doesn't fucking work that way, and the entire party attacks it again, at which point unless the party is full of basket weavers it dies, the falling guy is saved by Feather Fall, and the looting commences. AC 18 is about nothing at this level. 95 HP is above average but still easily sliced through.

You are a fucking idiot. Attack it with what? A bow with your 12 dex Barbarian? Your Wizard? Your other 12 Dex character? Your Rogue who isn't getting SA? What the fuck are you attacking it with that you kill it while it's in the air?

You see a Dragon coming, it shows up an breathes on everyone. Meanwhile, you can attack it with your ranged attacks, which in the average party is shit all.

You are a fucking idiot, this is D&D, you can actually do math to find out if you are right. You objectively are not.

I can claim that I can totally kill a Titan in one round with a level 1 party, but I can also do math and see that isn't the case. So stop making stupid assertions, and focus on beating an actual fucking dragon that is flying over, and explain how you kill it in two rounds.

PS, +7 reflex save modifier. DC 15. Even assuming you do use readied actions, which you will have to, because you can't throw further than 50ft, and that at a -8 penalty it still just makes the save and flies onward.

[Shadow Balls]

I'm reading that, and all I'm seeing is an outbreak of the herpaderpies, mixed with whining that because his party is shit and he can't play worth a fuck that all parties everywhere are shit, and all players cannot play, and then you try to cover that up by going on some retarded ass straw man about level 1s beating a titan, as if that is remotely comparable to fucking beating an at level dragon.

PS: Minimum forward speed bitch. Suck it.

PS2: Depending on terrain and assuming a not fire dragon Web also works. So do many other spells. But no need for situational stuff, you can just beat it same as any other tough but winnable fight. Buff, focus fire, away!

[Kaelik]

PS: Minimum forward speed bitch. Suck it.

PS2: Depending on terrain and assuming a not fire dragon Web also works. So do many other spells. But no need for situational stuff, you can just beat it same as any other tough but winnable fight. Buff, focus fire, away!

PS, I see you haven't presented any kind of evidence that you can do 95 HP damage to a flying creature in two rounds. Oh right, because you can't.

PS2, yes, the minimum forward speed of 75ft... that it can easily fly after you hit it with a tanglefoot bag and it makes the save, if you even succeed at hitting it with the tanglefoot bag.

PS3 Depending on the dragon not being able to fly, you can use Web. Alternatively, you can proceed to not cast web, because it's 40ft over your head, and you can't anchor the web.

PS4, please explain in detail what buffs you are going to cast, and what attacks you are going to make to focus fire the dragon.

[Shadow Balls]

35% to crash per bag, + Downdraft + Slow + whatever the fuck else. Seriously, it's not fucking hard. Just because you are too much of a basket weaver to do it doesn't mean that it can't be done.

[Kaelik]

35% to crash per bag, + Downdraft + Slow + whatever the fuck else. Seriously, it's not fucking hard. Just because you are too much of a basket weaver to do it doesn't mean that it can't be done.

I like this, because the more you talk, the more retarded you sound.

So your current "totally easy, everyone does it" plan to beat a dragon is for the Cleric to spend one of his 3rd level slots at level 5 to memorize downdraft, an obscures spell from the SpC that is absolutely terrible unless you are fighting a Dragon, or some other ranged flyer that you can't hit. (Which is weird, because you just finished telling me how you could totally just kill it in two rounds while it flies overhead. Seems like a better idea that wasting a slot every day on such an incredibly unimpressive spell.)

And all it does is 3d6 damage, and give you one round to attack it on the ground.

Now, ignoring the spell you haven't mentioned before because you googled "spells to beat dragons" to find, if you didn't have advance warning of the exact encounter you were facing, you could watch a dragon coming, ready your actions, and then:

1) The Wizard can cast slow.
2) The Rogue can throw at -5 against a touch AC of 9, and probably miss with a tanglefoot bag.

But if the Dragon fails the will save that he makes half the time, and the Rogue also hits with a tanglefoot bag he misses with more than half the time, but the dragon makes the save it makes more than half the time... The Dragon keeps flying, and comes back in 5 rounds when the tanglefoot bag has worn off and the slow spell too, and you are one spell, one tanglefoot bag, and 22 hp save for half on two party members down.

Because once again, fly speed of 150ft, use a move action at half speed to go 75ft. And next turn, use another move action to do the same thing, and come back when you are no longer slowed.

Seriously, this is fucking hilarious. Even if you do try to convince people that "downdraft is totally one of the standard save or lose spells that Clerics use their 3rd level slots to memorize" it still just puts it on the ground for one round, after which it leaps 75ft into the air, and comes back around for another pass with you short another spell.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Also, the only prerequisite for flyby attack is a fly speed, and it's in the same book dragons are introduced in. What kind of flight-capable dragon doesn't take it?