Libertad wrote:To the bolded: That's because not everyone wants to be a wizard, even if they're much more powerful and useful than fighters. Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards is still a problem, especially when noncaster players start to feel useless. Many gamers feel more comfortable as Conan instead of Merlin; the 3rd Edition rules need to reinforce Conan as a valid concept at high levels.
you contradict yourself.. it ISNT a problem for those that dont want to be a wizard and like the fighter.
so how do you "fix" it without giving those that choose fighter a wizard spell list like 4th did?
feeling useless is often like someone said on ENWorld, the player, not the game itself.
take the wizard replacing the thief by choosing spells to replicate his functions. it CAN be done, but as everyone should know.. just because we CAN do a thing, doesnt mean we SHOULD.
swinging a sword will NEVER give anyone the ability to fly.. these utilities are beyond normal physic..so either you go DBZ fighters that dont fit in the world of medieval fantay, or you make magic more useles to say it cant do something.
fighters arent useless, unless the wizard character player makes them feel that way.
Mearls said something intelligent ONCE... about how rules cannot make bad DMs into good DM, nor bad players into good players.
so no matter what you do with the rules, and abusive player setting out to use the wizard for something other than playing the game, but being a "spotlight thief" or what have you will, NOT be stopped by any rules. it only really hurts other players by giving even MROE time and effort to that abusive wizard player.. which is exactly what they are wanting as the attention whores they are.
wizards have SOOOOO many spells..pre-4th, that they can do many other things than just replicate the other classes functions.
and the wizards NEVER prevents the fighter from swinging their sword. the wizard spells are sometimes too powerful, but thats because like in the other thread.. people worry too much about high level and going places the game just doesnt work. like a mortal human fighter fighting a god.
also wizards spells are and should be used as they are... OH shit we're in trouble...save our asses with something big.
Morale used to play a big part in this because a fireball would possibly make the enemy run away in fear of the spell, letting the fighter give chase to those that survived and cut them down one at a time rather than having 6 to fight at once.
crowd control if you will.
as for battlefield control.. the fighter can also instill fear with a DM using morale better as him punching this guy in the face so the back of his head explodes as the fist goes through.. would freak out the other opponents. otherwise swinging a sword wont do it.
it isnt the mechanics where this comes into play really.. especially with the removal of morale, but in the playing. should ALL orcs fear someone that punches a hole in someones head? no, because each group is different.
part of the game is making it work within your group. this is one of the reason there can NEVER be a everyman's D&D because everyone doesnt agree because they dont want the same things.
"player agency" and the DM not being able to tell the wizard "no you dont get this spell" is making the FvW into a real problem, where it shouldnt exist.
how many people think that because it exists in the book it should be allowed at all times because it is part of "the game"? how many of the designers do you think allowed everything to be used all the time from 3rd and back?
the books, including spells, are compilations of things that people want or have asked for, but doesnt make it that all things should be included all the time.
1st edition, took spells people asked for and from Dragon/T.S.R. articles and put them into the game with some changes...
2nd edition took more from Dragon that people liked and put them in.
3rd edition put even MORE of those spells and functions in form Dragon.
none of these said, "all things must be used at all times", but sadly people dont understand that.
the "next" edition, just takes things liked from past publications and compiles them into one book you can buy NOW, rather than have to find these often used things in older publications.
this is why the DM needs to tailor spell lists and such to the world THEY create. there is NO default D&D world where everything from the books work, no matter what 4th edition implies.
1st was based on Greyhawk played by Gary and had what he thought MOST people would like form it, left some of his own stuff out, and added some thing he didnt use, but heard many people wanted.
2nd based on Greyhawk still loosely but more genericized for the mountain of world and settings in 2nd.
3rd still some Greyhawk, with who knows what.. but tried to be a generic world..and forgot the game NEVER worked like that.
2nd PHB foreward wrote:None of this would ever have come into being without interested and involved players. The people who really decided what needed to be done for the AD&D 2nd Edition game are the players who mailed in questions, everyone who wrote an article for DRAGONĀ® Magazine, and everyone who button-holed me (or other designers) at conventions. These were the people who decided what needed to be done, what needed fixing, what was unclear, and what they just didn't like. I didn't sit in a vacuum and make these decisions. As the designer and developer, I had to make the final choice, but those choices were based on your input.
In the past two years, I've talked to interested players many times, hearing their concerns and sharing my ideas. It was at the end of one of these talks (at a convention in Missoula, Montana), just as I described some rules change, that one of the listeners smiled and said, "You know, we've been doing that for years." And that is what AD&D 2nd Edition is all about--collecting and organizing all those things that we, as players, have been doing for years.
David "Zeb" Cook
January, 1989
Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.
each new edition is just a collection of ideas used by various groups, not a formal here is D&D that everyone should be playing...but various groups combined ideas, that dont always work for EVERY other group.
2nd DMG foreward wrote:Choice is what the AD&D game is all about. We've tried to offer you what we think are the best choices for your AD&D campaign, but each of us has different likes and dislikes. The game that I enjoy may be quite different from your own campaign. But it is not for me to say what is right or wrong for your game. True, I and everyone working on the AD&D game have had to make fundamental decisions, but we've tried to avoid being dogmatic and inflexible. The AD&D game is yours, it's mine, it's every player's game.
So is there an "official" AD&D game? Yes, but only when there needs to be. Although I don't have a crystal ball, it's likely that tournaments and other official events will use all of the core rules in these books. Optional rules may or may not be used, but it's fair to say that all players need to know about them even if they don't have the memorized.
The Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master Guide give you what you're expected to know, but that doesn't mean the game begins and ends there. Your game will go in directions not yet explored and your players will try things others think strange. Sometimes these strange things will work; sometimes they won't. Just accept this, be ready for it, and enjoy it.
Take the time to have fun with the AD&D rules. Add, create, expand, and extrapolate. Don't just let the game sit there, and don't become a rules lawyer worrying about each piddly little detail. If you can't figure out the answer, MAKE IT UP! And whatever you do, don't fall into the trap of believing these rules are complete. They are not. You cannot sit back and let the rule book do everything for you. Take the time and effort to become not just a good DM, but a brilliant one.
At conventions, in letters, and over the phone I'm often asked for the instant answer to a fine point of the game rules. More often than not, I come back with a question--what do you feel is right? And the people asking the questions discover that not only can they create an answer, but that their answer is as good as anyone else's. The rules are only guidelines.
At the beginning of the first Dungeon Master Guide, Gary Gygax stressed that each of us, working from a common base, would make the AD&D game grow in a variety of different directions. That is more true today than ever. Don't be afraid of experimentation, but do be careful. As a Dungeon Master, you have great power, and "with great power comes great responsibility." Use it wisely.
David "Zeb" Cook
2/9/89
Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.
everything p[resented in the books, NEVER is meant to be used all at once...it is ALL just options..again no matter what 4th edition and those idiots tried to create the ONETRUEWAY to play D&D.
so what cant the fighter do, other than create things form thin air, and make them move around, that a fighter player would want to do, while understand magic is NOT mundane and MANY people want magic to be magic?