Hello Den,
I'll be joining an Earthdawn 3e game before too long. I've been searching around and so far all I know about the game is that a some people have a less than favorable opinion of the step dice mechanic and that Earthdawn occurs in same setting (but doesn't use the same mechanics) as Shadowrun.
My question to you all is - what can you tell me about the game mechanically? Are there any options (classes, races, talents, spells.. etc) that are a trap that should be avoided at all costs? Conversely, are there any options that should be avoided because they are overpowered and would rip the game in half?
Thank you all in advance,
- Mozoki -
Earthdawn 3e - What do I need to know about the mechanics?
Moderator: Moderators
Earthdawn 3e - What do I need to know about the mechanics?
Last edited by Mozoki on Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just get a calculator and write a subroutine for step rolls and it'll be fine on the rolling front.
Melee stuff early on is rather powerful compared to your other options. Later on Archers start to get their stuff going. Casters have to charge up each spell to cast it (for most spells) which means that they'll cast spells only every other round almost all the time. At higher levels it won't matter though because the spells will be very powerful.
The disciplines without any combat talents as primary talents are probably the ones that you should avoid when you're new to the game. You have to pay a little extra attention to them because you have to pick your optional talents more carefully. Illusionists can be fiddly to play because of the disbelief rules.
I don't think there's much starting out that's powerful enough compared to other things that it'd be worth the effort to avoid. Weaponsmiths can maybe get out of hand if there's a smith in a large party and everyone else is a melee weapon user benefiting from the smithing buff.
Edited for some more info:
Dwarves are okay. Elves are okay. Humans can be really fiddly because you have to know a lot more about what's good and what's not to make good use of Versatility (and what you should grab with it varies based on what your discipline is). Obsidimen have limited armor options in exchange for being tough as nails, it's a good trade. Orks have a miniature-berserk mechanic that's mostly just an RP thing, they're okay. Trolls are enormous and physically powerful but they have to use troll sized things and will break your chairs if you invite them in to sit down. T'skrang are swimming lizard-people that can use their tail for attack or defense; attacking is only good if you're already an unarmed fighter because otherwise you'll have to invest in an extra skill to be able to hit with it, but using it for defense is always helpful regardless of your skills/talents. Windlings are two feet tall and rather frail, but they get a bonus to Physical Defense (a number that doesn't get many bonuses) and can fly.
Stats aren't rolled for, it's point buy. Base stats from your race plus some points to buy higher stats with. It's nicer if you can get Toughness 14 to have an extra Recovery Test (Wound Threshold is also a factor). You want your Dexterity to be at least 14 if possible to get a Physical Defense of 8 (anything less will get you stabbed or shot excessively often). Spell Defense is also important, so don't slouch on Perception if possible. Social Defense doesn't come up much at all, so Charisma isn't as important. Willpower of 11 is pretty cheap for everyone, and so you might as well get the free point of Mystic Armor. Ask your GM if you guys can use the "Enduring Armor By Strength" optional rule (Page 254). It lets you ignore a number of initiative penalty points from your armor based on your Strength score, which is cool.
Because your initial talent and skill points are assigned 1 for 1, and your later advancement in talents and skills is according to the Fibonacci Sequence, then it's easiest to get to 3rd circle and above if you stick your 8 points in to two Rank 3 talents and one Rank 2 talent. At the same time, it's fastest to just get to 2nd circle at all if you assign four talents to be Rank 2. Since 2nd circle is when you can start buying the Durability talent (the only way to increase your HP), you might want to do that instead. Either way, the difference becomes miniscule later on, so don't fret over it too much if you can't decide. Putting some of your free skill points into Wound Balance is probably a good idea if your discipline won't be getting that as a Talent since it's a bonus on a test you'll have to be making a lot of checks for anyways. Doing the same with Avoid Blow is a fool's errand because at attack rolls go up later on your Avoid Blow probably won't go up later on, and it has an extra penalty for failure (which Wound Balance does not).
It's always struck me as weird that there's a talent to sneak silently that specifically doesn't make you harder to spot, but not a talent to make you harder to spot (not until much higher level at least).
Melee stuff early on is rather powerful compared to your other options. Later on Archers start to get their stuff going. Casters have to charge up each spell to cast it (for most spells) which means that they'll cast spells only every other round almost all the time. At higher levels it won't matter though because the spells will be very powerful.
The disciplines without any combat talents as primary talents are probably the ones that you should avoid when you're new to the game. You have to pay a little extra attention to them because you have to pick your optional talents more carefully. Illusionists can be fiddly to play because of the disbelief rules.
I don't think there's much starting out that's powerful enough compared to other things that it'd be worth the effort to avoid. Weaponsmiths can maybe get out of hand if there's a smith in a large party and everyone else is a melee weapon user benefiting from the smithing buff.
Edited for some more info:
Dwarves are okay. Elves are okay. Humans can be really fiddly because you have to know a lot more about what's good and what's not to make good use of Versatility (and what you should grab with it varies based on what your discipline is). Obsidimen have limited armor options in exchange for being tough as nails, it's a good trade. Orks have a miniature-berserk mechanic that's mostly just an RP thing, they're okay. Trolls are enormous and physically powerful but they have to use troll sized things and will break your chairs if you invite them in to sit down. T'skrang are swimming lizard-people that can use their tail for attack or defense; attacking is only good if you're already an unarmed fighter because otherwise you'll have to invest in an extra skill to be able to hit with it, but using it for defense is always helpful regardless of your skills/talents. Windlings are two feet tall and rather frail, but they get a bonus to Physical Defense (a number that doesn't get many bonuses) and can fly.
Stats aren't rolled for, it's point buy. Base stats from your race plus some points to buy higher stats with. It's nicer if you can get Toughness 14 to have an extra Recovery Test (Wound Threshold is also a factor). You want your Dexterity to be at least 14 if possible to get a Physical Defense of 8 (anything less will get you stabbed or shot excessively often). Spell Defense is also important, so don't slouch on Perception if possible. Social Defense doesn't come up much at all, so Charisma isn't as important. Willpower of 11 is pretty cheap for everyone, and so you might as well get the free point of Mystic Armor. Ask your GM if you guys can use the "Enduring Armor By Strength" optional rule (Page 254). It lets you ignore a number of initiative penalty points from your armor based on your Strength score, which is cool.
Because your initial talent and skill points are assigned 1 for 1, and your later advancement in talents and skills is according to the Fibonacci Sequence, then it's easiest to get to 3rd circle and above if you stick your 8 points in to two Rank 3 talents and one Rank 2 talent. At the same time, it's fastest to just get to 2nd circle at all if you assign four talents to be Rank 2. Since 2nd circle is when you can start buying the Durability talent (the only way to increase your HP), you might want to do that instead. Either way, the difference becomes miniscule later on, so don't fret over it too much if you can't decide. Putting some of your free skill points into Wound Balance is probably a good idea if your discipline won't be getting that as a Talent since it's a bonus on a test you'll have to be making a lot of checks for anyways. Doing the same with Avoid Blow is a fool's errand because at attack rolls go up later on your Avoid Blow probably won't go up later on, and it has an extra penalty for failure (which Wound Balance does not).
It's always struck me as weird that there's a talent to sneak silently that specifically doesn't make you harder to spot, but not a talent to make you harder to spot (not until much higher level at least).
Last edited by Lokathor on Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
In general, Earthdawn direct damage spells are pretty shitty. Fireballs are small, don't go very far, don't hit very hard, take a long time to go off, and are potentially quite expensive. Conjuration comes online at higher level, but is totally the shit. It's extremely easy to get a squad of undead or elementals that are the equivalent or more of every fighter in your party.
However, you are probably not going to play a game long enough to worry about that over much, meaning that being a meat shield should be fine.
-Username17
However, you are probably not going to play a game long enough to worry about that over much, meaning that being a meat shield should be fine.
-Username17
Earthdawn isn't DnD. Don't compare them. Don't treat races as stat blocks. That's pretty much all you need to know.
You can get more info in a less 'this and that sucks' on the official RedBrick forums.
P.S. Some of what Frank wrote is 1-st edition based - for example using Avoid Blow in ED3 you no longer suffer any consequences for failure. Avoid Blow lets you avoid damage whatsoever, where Wound Balance only helps you avoid going prone after suffering a Wound. And you get some Skills at start - both of the aforementioned abilities are available as skills also.
P.P.S. If you wish to min-max, remember to aim at the lowest-step range numbers on your primary Attributes. For example 13, 16, and 19. You can improve every attribute three times during the game, and that let's you raise it by one step. For others, try aiming at higher-step range(12, 15, 18), because that would let you raise it by one step on the first increase.
You can get more info in a less 'this and that sucks' on the official RedBrick forums.
P.S. Some of what Frank wrote is 1-st edition based - for example using Avoid Blow in ED3 you no longer suffer any consequences for failure. Avoid Blow lets you avoid damage whatsoever, where Wound Balance only helps you avoid going prone after suffering a Wound. And you get some Skills at start - both of the aforementioned abilities are available as skills also.
P.P.S. If you wish to min-max, remember to aim at the lowest-step range numbers on your primary Attributes. For example 13, 16, and 19. You can improve every attribute three times during the game, and that let's you raise it by one step. For others, try aiming at higher-step range(12, 15, 18), because that would let you raise it by one step on the first increase.
Last edited by Kot on Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
a) Oh, right. Sorry about that...
b) You risk 1 damage to avoid more damage. It's worth the risk most of the time. Armor defeating hits, and hard-hitting enemies can bring you down in 2-3 hits on any Circle, especially if you're a spellcaster with a puny 4/3 Durability score. And sometimes even a step 8 on a Dodge skill can save your life. For example I almost always try to Avoid Blow, and I managed to weasel out of potentially deadly hits more than once, with the above score of 2d6 on Dodge (1 skill point only). Exploding dice ftw.
b) You risk 1 damage to avoid more damage. It's worth the risk most of the time. Armor defeating hits, and hard-hitting enemies can bring you down in 2-3 hits on any Circle, especially if you're a spellcaster with a puny 4/3 Durability score. And sometimes even a step 8 on a Dodge skill can save your life. For example I almost always try to Avoid Blow, and I managed to weasel out of potentially deadly hits more than once, with the above score of 2d6 on Dodge (1 skill point only). Exploding dice ftw.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
Step 8:
10% chance of 15+
8% chance of 16+
6% chance of 17+
5% chance of 18+
4% chance of 19+
I could go on but you kinda get the point I hope
Taking 1 damage to try a Step 8 roll against an Armor Defeating hit (which would be a minimum of 15-17 based on your Dex step of 7, assuming that you don't have any +Physical Defense items but that you might be a windling) when you have "only a few hits left" in the first place wouldn't be what I'd call a good plan (though it's not crazy or anything either). The problem is that if you have a not-steller Avoid Blow score then you'll probably avoid more damage in the long run than you cause to yourself, but in the short run you'll probably hurt yourself a whole lot.
10% chance of 15+
8% chance of 16+
6% chance of 17+
5% chance of 18+
4% chance of 19+
I could go on but you kinda get the point I hope
Taking 1 damage to try a Step 8 roll against an Armor Defeating hit (which would be a minimum of 15-17 based on your Dex step of 7, assuming that you don't have any +Physical Defense items but that you might be a windling) when you have "only a few hits left" in the first place wouldn't be what I'd call a good plan (though it's not crazy or anything either). The problem is that if you have a not-steller Avoid Blow score then you'll probably avoid more damage in the long run than you cause to yourself, but in the short run you'll probably hurt yourself a whole lot.
Your math might be right, but I still had at least 5-6 cases where a 2d6 roll saved my skin. My character has Physical Defense 9 (elf, not windling), with Armor Defeating hits starting at 21. But I use Q-Workshop promotional d6's, and they explode like crazy. I think I had Dodge Boost on once, but I might be wrong, as that was a few years back, when I just got the spell...
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
Oh man I was looking at the wrong column; the numbers needed for an Armor Defeating Hit are even higher, and so the numbers you'd need to Avoid Blow them are also even higher. With a Physical Defense of 9 they'd need an 18 to Armor Defeat you base, and then if you're at 21 that means that you're holding a Crystal Raider Shield (only +3 deflection shield). So they got a 21+, and then you rolled a matching 21+ to dodge. Great, that happened 2.26% of the time ever. Dodge Boost makes your Step 8 into a Step 11, so if you had that then you'd be able to get 21+ a whole 7.58% of the time.
EDIT:
for more probability info: http://topps.diku.dk/torbenm/troll.msp and put in something like
sum { sum (accumulate x:=d10 while x=10), sum (accumulate y:=d8 while y=8)}
to the box. Or whatever other combo you want for whatever step. Be sure to change the x= part when changing the number of sides so that they match.
I think it's more likely that either your dice are fixed or your memories are fuzzy and not remembering all the times you've failed to roll what you needed compared to the times that you have.But I use Q-Workshop promotional d6's, and they explode like crazy.
EDIT:
for more probability info: http://topps.diku.dk/torbenm/troll.msp and put in something like
sum { sum (accumulate x:=d10 while x=10), sum (accumulate y:=d8 while y=8)}
to the box. Or whatever other combo you want for whatever step. Be sure to change the x= part when changing the number of sides so that they match.
Last edited by Lokathor on Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A few clarifications: +2 Deflection bonus from helmet, +1 from a crystal buckler. Dodge Boost adds it's bonus to the result, as all bonuses/penalties do in a non-retro flavored ED3 (the old way of modifying steps is an optional rule, IIRC).
The dice are not fixed. Or they were fixed as a feature during production, which I doubt (no mention of that on the net). Q-Workshop adds one of them for every few (5 I think) dice you buy from their stall at conventions.
Okay, I'm unboggled for the moment - I think math is my Achilles's Heel. I can't even try faking that I understand what you wrote there, so I won't.
The thing with probabilities is, even when they're low, they can still happen a few times in a row. I know that rolling 45+ on 2d10 has a low chance of happening, but nevertheless it happened a few times in the games I've played in. That's one of Earthdawn's selling points - even a 'noob' can do heroic thing, when his dice explode. I could try summing up the times when my dodge attempts failed, and it would probably be statistically correct. But I forgot those moments, maybe except those two times I've almost got one-shotted by a minor Horror (and that was in a row, thanks to healing potions)... As they say - "Karma is a bitch", and in Earthdawn it rings especially true when applied to Horrors.
Anyway, I could count the chances of succeeding when I risk Dodge, or anything like that, but that would probably seize my mind for the rest of the game. Instead I treat this like a bluff. You take one damage to avoid a lot more. It might work. It's the same kind of investment in luck you make when using any other Strain damage causing Talent or Skill. For me, that's what makes Earthdawn even more fun - the rush when the risk does pay...
The dice are not fixed. Or they were fixed as a feature during production, which I doubt (no mention of that on the net). Q-Workshop adds one of them for every few (5 I think) dice you buy from their stall at conventions.
Okay, I'm unboggled for the moment - I think math is my Achilles's Heel. I can't even try faking that I understand what you wrote there, so I won't.
The thing with probabilities is, even when they're low, they can still happen a few times in a row. I know that rolling 45+ on 2d10 has a low chance of happening, but nevertheless it happened a few times in the games I've played in. That's one of Earthdawn's selling points - even a 'noob' can do heroic thing, when his dice explode. I could try summing up the times when my dodge attempts failed, and it would probably be statistically correct. But I forgot those moments, maybe except those two times I've almost got one-shotted by a minor Horror (and that was in a row, thanks to healing potions)... As they say - "Karma is a bitch", and in Earthdawn it rings especially true when applied to Horrors.
Anyway, I could count the chances of succeeding when I risk Dodge, or anything like that, but that would probably seize my mind for the rest of the game. Instead I treat this like a bluff. You take one damage to avoid a lot more. It might work. It's the same kind of investment in luck you make when using any other Strain damage causing Talent or Skill. For me, that's what makes Earthdawn even more fun - the rush when the risk does pay...
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
Thank you all for your feedback. It's really helped provide perspective on the game.
I have a question regarding the Beastmaster discipline, conceptually it looks like the discipline works similarly to the shadowrun rigger - but with friending animals, rather than building robots. Does it break the action economy in a similar way or am I missing something? Just reading the first few levels, it sounds like as a Beastmaster you wonder around and make friends with a pile of animals, then when you get into combat you yell at them all to attack. Okay, so maybe its more like pokemon. But either way, does it break the action economy?
I have a question regarding the Beastmaster discipline, conceptually it looks like the discipline works similarly to the shadowrun rigger - but with friending animals, rather than building robots. Does it break the action economy in a similar way or am I missing something? Just reading the first few levels, it sounds like as a Beastmaster you wonder around and make friends with a pile of animals, then when you get into combat you yell at them all to attack. Okay, so maybe its more like pokemon. But either way, does it break the action economy?
The 3e rules state that when you get a modifier you can either adjust your step or you can alter the final result. Generally I will implore my players to adjust the result if it's a short term modifier (like a wound penalty, or a situational bonus, etc). If you're going to have a long term modifier though (such as a spell you're keeping up all the time, or a magic item that gives you a boost) then I'll invite the player to change up the dice rolled if they want. I find that bonuses feel more "real" if it lets you roll different more/dice.
Now the catch to all of this is: Step 11 [1d8+1d10] and Step 8 (+3 at the end) [2d6] don't have the same results curve at all. Here's a picture
Look at that for just a moment. They both have a 47% chance of getting their own step number or higher. However, Step 8 has the highest odds of a single result (6), and at the same time with Step 11 you've got the best odds of getting one of three results (an 8, 9, or 10, roughly equal chance of each). Actually, you can pick any target number at all (other than 11), and Step 8 (+3) won't provide you with the same odds of success as Step 11 will.
So if you want to roll Step 8 (+3) when trying to get a 21, instead of needing 21 on the dice (7.5% chance on Step 11) you need an 18 on the dice (5.0% chance on Step 8). Everything I talked about before about the difficulties of rolling high enough to make Avoid Blow useful is even harder than I said it was if you're rolling Step 8 (+3) instead of Step 11.
But that's not likely to happen, and on the whole if you don't keep Avoid Blow at about the same step value as the attack step of the people you're trying to Avoid you'll do more damage to yourself than you'll ever manage to dodge if you insist on using it anyways.
Earthdawn sells itself on the idea that heroes can be lucky, but so does every other heroic fantasy game. Either the odds are with you (in which case you'll probably make it but you won't be lucky when you do) or the odds are actually against you (in which case you'll probably die, and if you don't then you really are lucky). The trick of game design is making the possible feel impossible so that the players think they'll die and feel good about themselves when they don't.
The real catch to it all is that the animals you find and can Bond with are GM limited. And your ability to have lots and lots of animal followers all trying to fight by your side is also limited by the other players not wanting to put up with that shit taking so long.
Remember that anyone who isn't a Beastmaster can just pay money to have extra people follow them around if they want similar help, so it's not a perfect win or anything.
Now the catch to all of this is: Step 11 [1d8+1d10] and Step 8 (+3 at the end) [2d6] don't have the same results curve at all. Here's a picture
So if you want to roll Step 8 (+3) when trying to get a 21, instead of needing 21 on the dice (7.5% chance on Step 11) you need an 18 on the dice (5.0% chance on Step 8). Everything I talked about before about the difficulties of rolling high enough to make Avoid Blow useful is even harder than I said it was if you're rolling Step 8 (+3) instead of Step 11.
I... yes. Yes they could. Given enough gameplay it'll happen that you'll on some occasion be hit with a horribly high attack roll and damage roll and then you'll still manage to dodge it all with an equally impressive Avoid Blow roll and then you'll have prevented a huge amount of damage.The thing with probabilities is, even when they're low, they can still happen a few times in a row.
But that's not likely to happen, and on the whole if you don't keep Avoid Blow at about the same step value as the attack step of the people you're trying to Avoid you'll do more damage to yourself than you'll ever manage to dodge if you insist on using it anyways.
Earthdawn sells itself on the idea that heroes can be lucky, but so does every other heroic fantasy game. Either the odds are with you (in which case you'll probably make it but you won't be lucky when you do) or the odds are actually against you (in which case you'll probably die, and if you don't then you really are lucky). The trick of game design is making the possible feel impossible so that the players think they'll die and feel good about themselves when they don't.
Yeah, it easily could. Animal Bond at 1st Circle lets you convince dogs and stuff that they should be your followers. At 2nd Circle you get Dominate Beast, but that only lasts for a number of Minutes, so you're still stuck with using Animal Bond mostly. You don't get access to Animal Companion Durability until 5th circle, so your animals won't get tougher for a while and there'll be a time when they're not so helpful in combat because they die easily.I have a question regarding the Beastmaster discipline, conceptually it looks like the discipline works similarly to the shadowrun rigger - but with friending animals, rather than building robots. Does it break the action economy in a similar way or am I missing something? Just reading the first few levels, it sounds like as a Beastmaster you wonder around and make friends with a pile of animals, then when you get into combat you yell at them all to attack. Okay, so maybe its more like pokemon. But either way, does it break the action economy?
The real catch to it all is that the animals you find and can Bond with are GM limited. And your ability to have lots and lots of animal followers all trying to fight by your side is also limited by the other players not wanting to put up with that shit taking so long.
Remember that anyone who isn't a Beastmaster can just pay money to have extra people follow them around if they want similar help, so it's not a perfect win or anything.
Last edited by Lokathor on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
And there's another perk - you can also try this on magical beasts, like griffins or thundra beasts. It's more difficult, but can happen if you play your cards right. And when you hit Journeyman status, you'll be the guy who has his own griffon mount.
You can also count on Blood Share to keep you alive. I've heard of a player who kept a Cave Bear as a backup healing source via Blood Share. You can also use the Familiar option (blood magic) on your favorite pet, which gives you the ability to buy an exclusive version of Blood Share and Familiar Durability for this particular creature even at lower circles (I'm not sure if you need Thread Weaving for that - if not, you can do that even at first Circle)...
That, and not being weapon-reliant, by means of the Claw talent. You can easily enough get a higher than your current Circle level of the talent, and have the power of a polearm in your fingernails. Plus, it's a Talent, which means claw damage is considered magical, and as such isn't capped at stepx3 damage (as normal, or even forged weapons are).
You can also count on Blood Share to keep you alive. I've heard of a player who kept a Cave Bear as a backup healing source via Blood Share. You can also use the Familiar option (blood magic) on your favorite pet, which gives you the ability to buy an exclusive version of Blood Share and Familiar Durability for this particular creature even at lower circles (I'm not sure if you need Thread Weaving for that - if not, you can do that even at first Circle)...
That, and not being weapon-reliant, by means of the Claw talent. You can easily enough get a higher than your current Circle level of the talent, and have the power of a polearm in your fingernails. Plus, it's a Talent, which means claw damage is considered magical, and as such isn't capped at stepx3 damage (as normal, or even forged weapons are).
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."