Polymorph

RobG · Post by **RobG** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:43 am

Im writing up my final rules for 3.5 and I cant put it off any longer. Ive hit Polymorph.

Ive seen much eye-rolling and shrugging at the mention of the spell but what are the actual, honest-to-god problems with Polymorph?

Not looking for solutions yet, just problems. Need to know what to fix first.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:45 am

Polymorph other, i think is the problem. oh BBEG you are going to do this or that etc.. well lets see you try when you are a fluffy bunny.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:52 am

1. By being able to turn into a Troll, Elephant or Giant Scorpion, the caster of Polymorph can spend a single spell slot to become a better fighter than anything the actual fighter class gives you.
2. Turning into a Choker or a Ravid or something gives you monster powers that were never balanced for or even considered as player character powers.
3. The rules for how Polymorph works, what it changes and what it doesn't are a badly written and confusing tangle of references to other spells. While this doesn't actually break anything in and of itself, it is a pain in the ass to figure out at the table.

Sashi · Post by **Sashi** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:59 am

shadzar wrote:Polymorph other, i think is the problem. oh BBEG you are going to do this or that etc.. well lets see you try when you are a fluffy bunny.

Up until this point I have just glazed over your bullshit. But this is so absolutely anti-insightful that I have no choice but to block you.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:05 am

Well, it's at least amusing that he managed to pick the least problematic Polymorph spell.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:39 am

Polymorph other is as problematic as polymorph self if used on the party by the party wizard.

RobG · Post by **RobG** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:25 am

Grek wrote:1. By being able to turn into a Troll, Elephant or Giant Scorpion, the caster of Polymorph can spend a single spell slot to become a better fighter than anything the actual fighter class gives you.

Im not seeing it. I have the 7th level fighter dealing more damage than the Troll. I have the 10th/11th level fighter dealing more than the Elephant or Giant Scorpion. I see the +26 grapple on the Elephant but I also see a low AC and no Improved Grab. The trample is kind of nice. I see Improved Grab on the Scorpion with a +21 but a 10th level figher with Imp Grapple has a +20. The attack bonus on the sting is really bad and the save DC isnt great.

RobG · Post by **RobG** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:43 am

Grek wrote: 2. Turning into a Choker or a Ravid or something gives you monster powers that were never balanced for or even considered as player character powers.
3. The rules for how Polymorph works, what it changes and what it doesn't are a badly written and confusing tangle of references to other spells. While this doesn't actually break anything in and of itself, it is a pain in the ass to figure out at the table.

The Choker doesnt have the extra action in 3.5 and the Ravid is an Outsider. The fly ability is Su too and without it you're basically slowed.

Agreed on the spell writing. The cross referencing is confusing.

Also, thank you for actually responding to the topic.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:54 am

How about a giant scorpion against a level 7 fighter? You can pump your caster level by 3 easy, getting you the 10 HD necessary to polymorph to a giant scorpion. Same process applies to any creature--take its HD and drop that by 2-4, and you have the level of the caster using the spell (and thus the level of the fighter that the caster is currently outclassing).

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:18 am

shadzar wrote:Polymorph other, i think is the problem. oh BBEG you are going to do this or that etc.. well lets see you try when you are a fluffy bunny.

Aside from this being one of the lesser evils (neither the best nor the worst) of the polymorph problems, I think the changed name was actually baleful polymorph.

One of my other nitpicky problems with polymorph object is that one of the criteria for duration is "Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral)" and/or "Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.)" Neither of these actually have true definitions in D&D. I see something in the gnome class that mentions something about small burrowing mammals

"burrowing mammal (a badger, fox, rabbit, or the like, see below)"

Also how does mammal, fungi, metal classify as class. So, iron is in the same distinction as Fighter? I mean, sure, they both are ineffective without magical help but seriously.

---

I can't remember what spell it was that Virgil used in the Tamarask or... game in which he polymorphed something into a gigantic trap of some kind against a monster. But, that kind of bullshit is also one of the polymorph problems.

In reference to the Choker, what abilities did it have in 3.0 that it doesn't have in 3.5. the SRD shows that it still has

"Quickness (Su)
Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round."

---

koz · Post by **koz** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:22 am

RobG: I beg to differ on the Choker.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:48 am

Fuchs wrote:Polymorph other is as problematic as polymorph self if used on the party by the party wizard.

If by "polymorph other", you mean "polymorph any object", maybe.

RobG wrote:What are the actual, honest-to-god problems with Polymorph?

The basic problem is a dilemma.

If you don't give the caster any of the powers of the creature he polymorphs into (e.g. it's just a glorified Disguise Self), then it's a lame spell and it doesn't match how shapechanging works in fantasy fiction.

If you do give the caster some of the powers of the creature he polymorphs into, then it turns into dumpster-diving through the Monster Manual looking for combos that are broken when applied to a spellcaster (even if the underlying monster isn't particularly broken).

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:35 pm

Cynic wrote:I can't remember what spell it was that Virgil used in the Tamarask or... game in which he polymorphed something into a gigantic trap of some kind against a monster. But, that kind of bullshit is also one of the polymorph problems.

That was polymorph any object, in which I polymorphed a spare nonmagical dagger into a 150' tall Meso-American style pyramid, with the apex immediately beneath the monster we were fighting, and a legally made auto-reset touch attack trap (location sensitive); so a +20 touch attack for 20d6. The silliness from that was the fact the pyramid was permanent because it was made of the same intelligence (none), kingdom (mineral), and class (metal) as the dagger.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:40 pm

Yeah, with Polymorph, you want to buff your caster level even more so than you want to normally as a spellcaster. But even without any buffing at all, you can turn into an N-headed hydra, where N is your caster level.

Aharon · Post by **Aharon** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:05 pm

...You Lost Me wrote:How about a giant scorpion against a level 7 fighter? You can pump your caster level by 3 easy, getting you the 10 HD necessary to polymorph to a giant scorpion. Same process applies to any creature--take its HD and drop that by 2-4, and you have the level of the caster using the spell (and thus the level of the fighter that the caster is currently outclassing).

Polymorph is turn into thing with min(your CL or target's HD). Boosting CL isn't useful here. It's still a strong spell, of course.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:35 pm

Seems like the easiest solution to Polymorph object at least is to nerf it to where you have conservation of mass.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:41 pm

TheFlatline wrote:Seems like the easiest solution to Polymorph object at least is to nerf it to where you have conservation of mass.

At the level I used it (17th), I'm fine with that particular use. It was actually a move on par with the fighters of the group at the time in combat.

Read the Tomes' material on the polymorph spells, they're fascinating and relevant to this discussion.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:13 pm

virgil wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:Seems like the easiest solution to Polymorph object at least is to nerf it to where you have conservation of mass.
At the level I used it (17th), I'm fine with that particular use. It was actually a move on par with the fighters of the group at the time in combat.

Read the Tomes' material on the polymorph spells, they're fascinating and relevant to this discussion.

Seeing as polymorph any object's range is 25 ft + 5 * ½ lvl, you can't create an at least 150 ft tall object at caster level 17.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:35 pm

Cynic wrote:
shadzar wrote:Polymorph other, i think is the problem. oh BBEG you are going to do this or that etc.. well lets see you try when you are a fluffy bunny.

Aside from this being one of the lesser evils (neither the best nor the worst) of the polymorph problems, I think the changed name was actually baleful polymorph.

yeah it is.

Ektagliaresia · Post by **Ektagliaresia** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:38 pm

Aharon wrote:
...You Lost Me wrote:How about a giant scorpion against a level 7 fighter? You can pump your caster level by 3 easy, getting you the 10 HD necessary to polymorph to a giant scorpion. Same process applies to any creature--take its HD and drop that by 2-4, and you have the level of the caster using the spell (and thus the level of the fighter that the caster is currently outclassing).
Polymorph is turn into thing with min(your CL or target's HD). Boosting CL isn't useful here. It's still a strong spell, of course.

Even if it was, this would be more of a problem with "easy CL increase" rather than Polymorph.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:40 pm

I'm sorry to say this but... use the Pathfinder version.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:10 pm

sigma999 wrote:I'm sorry to say this but... use the Pathfinder version.

I think there is quite a bit of merit in how Pathfinder handled polymorph spells. They have a decent mixture of granting monster abilities but not granting too many monster abilities.

But...
(1) there are still people who don't like that Wimpy J. Wizard turns into a wimpy elephant instead of an average elephant.

(2) even though the list of monster abilities you can grab is limited (a good thing, IMO), you still end up dumpster-diving for monsters that have a bunch of attacks and abilities.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:38 pm

ishy wrote:
virgil wrote:Seeing as polymorph any object's range is 25 ft + 5 * ½ lvl, you can't create an at least 150 ft tall object at caster level 17.

This is not an area spell. If that kind of stupid interpretation did exist, then your summoned badger would disappear if it double-moved and contact other plane couldn't work.

I found PF's polymorph fix to be a fun mix of Tome Fix Version 2 and 3.X's dumpster diving flaw; the fact you gain the monster's natural attacks & movement type and however many special abilities you can match with the spell's list...

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:42 pm

hogarth wrote: The basic problem is a dilemma.

If you don't give the caster any of the powers of the creature he polymorphs into (e.g. it's just a glorified Disguise Self), then it's a lame spell and it doesn't match how shapechanging works in fantasy fiction.

If you do give the caster some of the powers of the creature he polymorphs into, then it turns into dumpster-diving through the Monster Manual looking for combos that are broken when applied to a spellcaster (even if the underlying monster isn't particularly broken).

I think we need to do the latter, but I don't believe that automatically breaks it. I think the problem is getting all/most of the powers of the monster and still retaining your awesome wizard powers (plus magic items, feats, whatever).

Turning your fighter into an average troll isn't necessarily a big deal; turning your fighter into a troll with fighter feats and 7th level fighter magic items is a bigger deal.

The other issue, IMO, is durations. Being a troll for a little while might mean you rock, for a little while. As long as people aren't staying Firbolgs or spellcasting Dire Bears 24/7, it's less of a problem.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:51 pm

You know what my big problem with polymorph is?

Choosing the best creature to turn into and figuring out which stats do and do not change and how takes FOR GOD DAMN EVER at the table. It brings the game to a grinding halt if the caster doesn't have "his" stats at every creature he could possibly polymorph into statted out ahead of time.

You know what I don't get? Why does Polymorph have to be so fucking complicated?

Why can't it JUST turn you into the creature for a little while. You lose ALL of your spellcasting powers and magic items. You get ALL of its abilities (or if that's too broken, all of its extraordinary abilities) and all of its stats and its hit dice and so on for the duration.