Exalted Reincarnated

[deathdealingjawa]

Me and virgil were thinking about doing an Exalted inspired system.
The main things we wanted the system to have would be:
Players would be able to out rank gods and punching them in the face, Martial arts, and World shaping powers.

We were debating on how to do the martial arts system. We could develop a more tactical system, such as CAN or we could do a more free-form system like Feng Shui to resolve martial art fights.
Which would have broader appeal?
Should there be any other caveats in recreating Exalted so it doesn't stink?

[fectin]

Depends; are you looking for generic high level Wuxia, or for exalted with the serial numbers filed off?

[ModelCitizen]

It seems like you'd have broader appeal if you went for complex characters and tactical combat. Your target audience is people who kind of want to like Exalted but don't. Most of those people don't complain that Exalted has too many rules, they complain that the rules suck.

[FatR]

It seems like you'd have broader appeal if you went for complex characters and tactical combat. Your target audience is people who kind of want to like Exalted but don't. Most of those people don't complain that Exalted has too many rules, they complain that the rules suck.

No, actually a lot of people complain that Exalted has too many rules as well. It is just that anyone who still gives a fuck about a system as written and haven't migrated to some of "Exalted Lite" hacks probably can tolerate this level of complexity. But make no mistake, while core rules are not unreasonably complex (it is just that the complexity in them does not lead to interesting minigames and therefore is pointless), I've seen people drop the system because the Charm system was oversized and (for many, if not most, splats) counterintuitive.

[fectin]

Err, what? The charm system is pretty straightforward. There are plenty of places it's bad, but it's really not complicated at all.

That's like saying, "I dropped 3.5 because saving throws are too complicated".

[FatR]

Err, what? The charm system is pretty straightforward. There are plenty of places it's bad, but it's really not complicated at all.

No, it is not straightforward. Look at Lunar or Infernal Charms - Charm packages of basic competency are scattered across various, often not really related, trees without much rhyme or reason, so good luck generating a decent character unless you memorize most of the Charms. Of which there are about 300 per splat. And really everyone but Solars suffer from the lesser versions of the same shit. But even for Solars, it is like everyone is playing a wizard (and note that DnD wizards do take flak for excessive complexity), except that your spells come in weirdly built trees, so you have to check their fucking prerequisites (not always even in the same book) every time you want to pick one, and some of them are irreplaceable in the task of not dying, but the game does not tell you that.

[ModelCitizen]

Unfortunately the Exalted rules suck in a way that makes it harder to build characters, so I guess complexity and sucking aren't really separable. The hard part of picking charms that if you pick the wrong ones your character is unplayable without GM coddling and 95% of them are the wrong ones. If you used a less splatterpunk combat engine, and a resource mechanic that didn't force you to specialize in a single combo, then picking from a long list of charms would be much easier.

Note: All of my experience is with 1e Solars and Dragon-Blooded so I can't comment on any of the other splats. I'm not clear on what an Infernal even is and our one attempt at making Lunars ended when we realized it was an anthro dickgirl bestiality simulator. Fucking While Wolf.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm not clear on what an Infernal even is and our one attempt at making Lunars ended when we realized it was an anthro dickgirl bestiality simulator.

Don't forget cannibal hobo rape camp simulator. Which is supposed to be hammered right on top of anthro dickgirl bestiality simulator. You know, because you're the protagonist.

You know, I should find my Lunars book again and finish my review. But I'm kind of scared, still.

Fucking While Wolf.

No way, dood, that's what those Exalted bestiality freaks want.


That said, the 1E Alchemical and Dragonblooded books are surprisingly, perhaps even unjustly quality. The only reason why I would think of expending an iota of energy towards that project is that it'd be a damn shame if those books fell to the abyss.

[virgil]

Jawa and I were discussing various kitbash options to overcome the mechanical crap that is Exalted, including using Amber. Ultimately, it came down to the conclusion that if any real energy were to be spent on it, it would be a project akin to After Sundown; a whole new system with the serial numbers filed off to create what people want out of their Exalted game.

One option considered was a heavily supplemented Feng Shui, going for a relatively rules-light interpretation for your anime over-god warriors.

Another option was to go for a more tactical, rules-heavy approach for the martial arts. On the one hand, d20 might theoretically handle this, there's too much baggage considering some of the tropes that want to be handled. The idea I was suggesting was to use the CAN damage system, and actual combat would be a variety of RPS maneuvers, that are themselves grouped within semi-customizable Styles (or Stances, since you can switch between them); and give either the maneuvers or styles an elemental affinity. It would both create a robust method of automatically generating new styles, while still keeping it predictable enough.

[fectin]

Actually, my experience is that Exalted is far, far less brokenly divergent than 3.5, and "have a perfect defense" is much more explicitly encoded than "don't be a monk".

Whining about "dog rape" in Exalted is either ignorant (you're thinking of Werewolf) or says much more about you than about the game. Either way, it's retarded.

[Josh_Kablack]

Actually, my experience is that Exalted is far, far less brokenly divergent than 3.5,

I'll just call bullshit on this part and leave rebutting the dograep denial to Lago.

But as the playtester who actually ran the fucking numbers, I can say that you're either ignorant or your experience is very limited.

While it's true that 3.5 Saves and Skills can diverge by the entire RNG by level 2 or 3, and within a given they pretty much *will* diverge by the entire RNG in the early double-digit levels. -- Exalted has tasks that some party members cannot perform right out of the gate (difficulty +2, skill of 1). And while the nature of dicepool systems means that it never hits the hardcap of single-die systems where you have a party member who cannot fail at that same task, it does get pretty close and someone with a die pool of 12 has a better than 95% chance of succeeding at that same difficulty +2 task. Now I suppose you could call auto-fail and 95%+ chance of success between different party members on the same task at the start less divergent than auto-fail and auto-success between different party members on the same task at the second or third experience level - but I could counter by pointing out all the various save-replacing immunities and skill-replacing spells available in D&D which tend to remove the auto-fail end of it.


And then there's the way that flat attribute costs at chargen but triangular costs for advancing attributes massively encourage divergence within the PC party. For a quick hypothetical example, consider only two players with only two stats: Balanced Bob spreads his 6 starting stat points evenly between two stats for a 3 and a 3. But Veteran Vinnie knows Storyteller's hat of diversity know no limit so he spends his 6 starting stat points as divergent as possible for a 5 and a 1. When they get advancement, each point of stat advancement costs what the new number will be times some constant N. Thus, Bob has to spend 4N+5N to advance his character to having one stat of 3 and one stat of 5. Vinnie however only has to spend 2N+3N to advance his character to having one stat of 3 and one stat of 5. Thus, Bob spent 9/5ths as much XP as Vinnie to build the exact same character. Thus, once you consider advancement, it's massively suboptimal to try to build characters with multiple average scores instead of just really high and really low scores. So the optimal thing to do is to end up with dicepools that are either really large or non-existent, thereby encouraging divergence.

Also, first book first edition, your damage die pool could at least theoretically go up to 80. That diverges pretty far from the 7-13 most characters had.


****

Divergence aside Exalted also has the weird feature that in general, increasing your die pool on a given task increases your chance of critical success and also increased your chance of botch while shrinking your chance of normal success. This is non-intuitive to most players.

Then in just a couple places on the graph adding another die to your pool actually decreases your overall chance of success. If you ever actually play Exalted, I strongly recommend that you find and memorize those difficulty and dicepool breakpoints so as not to penalize yourself by rolling all the dice you can.

******

These sorts of thing are why the Storyteller mechanics need to die in a fire and why I would be all for a project to take the good parts of Exalted and port them to a system that works. However the first step in any such project would be to identify what the good parts of Exalted actually were and then intentionally cut the rest out.

[Username17]

These sorts of thing are why the Storyteller mechanics need to die in a fire and why I would be all for a project to take the good parts of Exalted and port them to a system that works. However the first step in any such project would be to identify what the good parts of Exalted actually were and then intentionally cut the rest out.

That is indeed the core problem. The thing is: even people who consider themselves to be fans of Exalted usually have a very difficult time explaining what the good parts actually are. Usually they just talk about how such and such a character had a cool backstory or something. A lot of people I talked to seem to like the concept of the elves in there, but based on their descriptions I think they would be equally happy with any elves who were "very alien in outlook and bound by arbitrary, magical sounding rules".

Pretty much it seems to come down to:

• It's not D&D.
• You get to play "high powered" as a starting character.
• Camel Toe.

Am I missing anything?

-Username17

[fectin]

Actually, my experience is that Exalted is far, far less brokenly divergent than 3.5,

I'll just call bullshit on this part and leave rebutting the dograep denial to Lago.

I didn't mean to denigrate 3.5; in my mind it's sort of the default RPG. What I said is still true though. I do admit I don't know first edition well. I haven't played it, or even read the core book. I'm pretty good on 2E though.

But as the playtester who actually ran the fucking numbers, I can say that you're either ignorant or your experience is very limited.

I guess the game I'm currently running has only been going for nine months, but the last one I was in ran for a couple years.

While it's true that 3.5 Saves and Skills can diverge by the entire RNG by level 2 or 3, and within a given they pretty much *will* diverge by the entire RNG in the early double-digit levels. -- Exalted has tasks that some party members cannot perform right out of the gate (difficulty +2, skill of 1).

Like lifting a 220 lb party member (strength 11, but not 10)? Or like UMD Activating blindly? (Charisma 12 at first level with max ranks, but not 10)?

And while the nature of dicepool systems means that it never hits the hardcap of single-die systems where you have a party member who cannot fail at that same task, it does get pretty close and someone with a die pool of 12 has a better than 95% chance of succeeding at that same difficulty +2 task. Now I suppose you could call auto-fail and 95%+ chance of success between different party members on the same task at the start less divergent than auto-fail and auto-success between different party members on the same task at the second or third experience level - but I could counter by pointing out all the various save-replacing immunities and skill-replacing spells available in D&D which tend to remove the auto-fail end of it.

That is a dumb argument, and I'm not making it. But your counterargument should still be better than "the system isn't broken, because eventually you can bypass it>"

And then there's the way that flat attribute costs at chargen but triangular costs for advancing...

It's even worse than you think. Optimized vs. pessimized is several hundred XP worth of swing to get the same character. Ultimately though, so what?

So the optimal thing to do is to end up with dicepools that are either really large or non-existent, thereby encouraging divergence.

Needs more impact. Why is this even bad?

Also, first book first edition, your damage die pool could at least theoretically go up to 80. That diverges pretty far from the 7-13 most characters had.

An 8th level bard can trivially get +50 to bluff, also just from core.

Then in just a couple places on the graph adding another die to your pool actually decreases your overall chance of success. If you ever actually play Exalted, I strongly recommend that you find and memorize those difficulty and dicepool breakpoints so as not to penalize yourself by rolling all the dice you can.

Under 2E mechanics, this does not appear to be true. I checked combinations from 1:10 dice and 1:10 difficulty.
In 2E, target number is (usually) fixed at 7, 10s count double, and if you roll a failure with 1s showing, it is a botch. I think it worked differently in 1E, but I also don't care.

The thing is: even people who consider themselves to be fans of Exalted usually have a very difficult time explaining what the good parts actually are. Usually they just talk about how such and such a character had a cool backstory or something.

That sounds like something that applies to every rpg ever made. Not that it's not valid, but it's hardly unique. If you want something as amorphous as "what are the good parts?" you have to provide a prototype or set parameters. Otherwise you're just inviting someone to play the bring me a rock game.

A lot of people I talked to seem to like the concept of the elves in there, but based on their descriptions I think they would be equally happy with any elves who were "very alien in outlook and bound by arbitrary, magical sounding rules".

I think that's pretty much true. Everyone who knows both seems to like both Nobilis and Exalted's Raksha. Unlike Nobilis though, Raksha can usefully interact with more traditional characters.

[*] Camel Toe.

I don't know if that book is elaborate trolling or what. It has actually useable and good rules for crafting, actual crunch on sorcery which imposes costs you care about but don't hate, and makes summoning creatures interesting. On the inside, it's actually one of the best splatbooks I've ever seen.
Then someone stuck that picture on the outside, and the whole thing is a farce.

[FatR]

Actually, my experience is that Exalted is far, far less brokenly divergent than 3.5,

Josh adressed that already.

But who cares anyway? The main problem of Exalted mechanics is not being broken (although they are), it is being boring. You are strongly encouraged to spam the same optimal action, or a set of 2-3 actions at best till the end of time. Shit, in 2E you often can literally calculate the outcome of a battle before it begins.

Whining about "dog rape" in Exalted is either ignorant (you're thinking of Werewolf)

Why the fuck you have to bring dograep bullshit here? They were talking about anthro dickgirls, not that. By the way, while the Lunars book doesn't really mention anthro dickgirls, as much as allows you to generate them with available powers, if you wish, I actually witnessed extended discussions about simulating anthro dickgirls on Exalted forums.
And I actually would much prefer for the Lunars book to have explicit anthro dickgirls in it, instead of getting super-soldiers through practicing bestiality, which is actually there. So yes, unlike Werewolf, Exalted 1E without exaggeration mechanically rewards you for literally raping dogs.

[virgil]

I'm all for keeping the charm concept from Exalted, but that doesn't say much for the resolution system. However, I'm still stuck on the primary combat resolution, because Exalted very much needs a combat system; hence Jawa & I asking whether we should aim toward Feng Shui or tactical CAN (more on the attacks than the positioning).

And of course, this will be moot if I get inspired sufficiently toward Teslavania, as I will drop work on Sublime (placeholder name for revamped Exalted); neither of which will really be started until I finish formatting Parabellum.

[FatR]

Am I missing anything?

-Username17

Dragon-Blooded and maybe some other splats, like Alchemicals or 1E Siddies, depending on tastes, are conceptually cool and have well-written settings. There is a couple of great early books, like Games of Divinity (they mostly got retconned later).

Also, initial 1E books were vague enough for people to basically project whatever they wanted on setting. I've noted that almost all Exalted fans of interest (and there was a number of cool posters in the fanbase, when I last cared) have their own extensive headcanon that not simply adds to the published materials, but retcons large parts of it.
...""read Scavenger Sons, Exalted: the Dragon-Blooded and Games of Divinity." Everything else is embellishment, half-truths, lies or otherwise inaccurate." (a direct quote, if you wonder) seems to be a frequent approach to the setting among Exalted veterans worth listening to.

[FatR]

I'm all for keeping the charm concept from Exalted,

I don't mind Charms if:

(1) Their number is severely reduced, preferably by eliminating all the bullshit small-numerical-bonus Charms.
(2) Prerequisites are simplified, preferably to Essence only. No trees. Wading through them slows the chargen greatly and their existence contributes to creation of weaksauce Charms which people only can care about when they are a prerequisite to something valuable.

[Username17]

I'm all for keeping the charm concept from Exalted

As far as I know, no one enjoys fiddling with the complicated charm prerequisite chains. Shorn of that, how is the charm concept different from completely arbitrary powers in say, After Sundown?

-Username17

[virgil]

True, I guess there isn't much difference in that regard. Mainly I would be converting/interpreting charms to recreate the better character concepts found in Exalted.

[Username17]

True, I guess there isn't much difference in that regard. Mainly I would be converting/interpreting charms to recreate the better character concepts found in Exalted.

So you want the character abilities to be called "Charms", rather than say "Disciplines", "Powers", or "Feats". Also you want to use some of the cooler names from Exalted abilities like "The Craftsman Needs No Tools".

Uh... OK.

-Username17

[virgil]

I realize the oddness. For some reason I was associating the cool powers I got (like pickpocketing wielded swords from 5m away and the victim not even noticing until they tried to hit something) with something intrinsic to the system itself.

As Jawa said, the things worth keeping are the setting/flavour of Exalted; Asian-flavoured fantasy, martial arts, and starting off high-powered. There aren't really any mechanical parts of the system that seem worth salvaging, hence me trying to decide between two combat systems that are wildly not WoD's.

As an aside, is there an ideal engine (CAN, FATE, d20, AWoD dice pool, etc) for something that combines Val Helsing with Girl Genius?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Dragon-Blooded and maybe some other splats, like Alchemicals or 1E Siddies, depending on tastes, are conceptually cool and have well-written settings. There is a couple of great early books, like Games of Divinity (they mostly got retconned later).

Yes, pretty much this.

I do really like some of the writing in this series. However, I am not a fan of Exalted by any means. If D&D or whatever gamebase competently poached the elements that I liked from the setting I would leave it in a heartbeat.

But really, all of the things that I like about Exalted have pretty much been replicated in Warp Cult. If someone published a version of Warp Cult that was more focused on personal badassery, was located on a planet or handful of planets that had a more diverse biome and culture than the 'One True Biome/Culture for this planet' that most sci-fi does, and was firmly planted in Bronze Age or Steampunk times I would have no reason to ever give Exalted a second thought ever again.

I think that it's pretty telling that the game is at its best when it completely ignores the metaplot and focuses on the Another Side, Another Story splats.

[Lago PARANOIA]

As far as I know, no one enjoys fiddling with the complicated charm prerequisite chains. Shorn of that, how is the charm concept different from completely arbitrary powers in say, After Sundown?

-Username17

Some people like the Dial-A-Combo aspect of Charms. Or more specifically, the Combo system of Charms in general. Which is understandable. Even though Arcane Fusion kind of sucks, the idea of blasting someone with Magic Missiles coming out of the Wall of Fire surrounding you is pretty damn sweet to some people. Such as myself.

Of course, Charms in Exalted do not accomplish that task, since Combos are used for stacking on RNG-breaking/PF-shattering feats and/or putting up a staid wall of bullshit defense.

[fectin]

As an aside, is there an ideal engine (CAN, FATE, d20, AWoD dice pool, etc) for something that combines Val Helsing with Girl Genius?

For one-offs? Danger Patrol.
Long term, Exalted as a mortal or a terrestrial.

[Lago PARANOIA]

And I actually would much prefer for the Lunars book to have explicit anthro dickgirls in it, instead of getting super-soldiers through practicing bestiality, which is actually there.

That's not even the most vile part of Lunars. Random act of vileness: they uphold child poverty as a virtue! As in, it's a worthy sacrifice for their freedom. Of course when we see what this 'freedom' entails (xenophobia, cultural parasitism, and religious superstitution) it's just the icing on the ass-shaped cake. But seriously, the narrative voice of the book straight up sneers at people who pity the starving children living in Lunar camps, saying that they'll taste a life that the soft city dwellers will never know.

Holy fucking shit.

Dude, I gotta finish my Exalted review sometime.

EDIT:

"Yes." He smiled, and the massive teeth that filled his jaws were almost as yellow as his eyes. "you have done well, little she-wolf. The humans here speak fearfully of a ghost-woman, who runs like the stag and hunts with the strength of a pack of 20. They are afraid of you, as they should be. You have learned to use your gifts well... although your learning is incomplete."
Muan's only response was a cautious stare.
"Did you think you were chosen for this?" His mouth twitched at one end. "Did you believe that Luna wanted you to have her strength and cunning because she wanted you to live alone in this wood until the Age turned once more? Little she-wolf, you can barely control your own body." His great thumb, its nail split like a hoof, touched her forehead. She flinched at the contact, which felt... cold. "That is why I am here. I am here to bring you back to your true people. We will fulfil[sic] our debt to you, and you will fulfil your debt to Luna."
Her gaze fell from his face. "So that is why I lived," she said softly. "Because she made me... just as she made you."
"Yes." He shifted on his feet and looked to the northeast. "Enough talk for now. You are no longer tired. Now, you follow--or you can run before me, and I will drive you back to the No Moons. I care little."
She looked at him again, and this time, her eyes burned with the same silver light that lit the mark on her forehead. His brow knotted as he returned her stare."
"Do you know what drove me into the forest?"
"I do not."
Her voice was winter stone. "It was you, Uka the Boar."
His eyes narrowed, like suddenly shuttered lamps. "It was... I?"
"Yes. You and your beast-children. You came on our tribe; you slaughtered those who tried to protect their families, and you took the rest as slaves or drove them into the woods. You murdered my father. You took my sister. I heard my mother die as she tried to distract your children from following my path." Her eyes glittered. "The forest would have killed me, if it could have. But I killed with my hands so I could eat. I tied myself to a tree branch so I could sleep. I chose not to die because I would not let you win."
The great bulk of the elder shifted slightly, and the hairy skin across his shoulders shuddered like a horse's. "I see," he rumbled at last. "And now? Now you want an apology? A blood-price?"
Thunder boiled in his throat, and it took Muan several seconds to realize he was laughing. "Quite the coincidence! But I cannot apologize to you. I feel no shame for my actions. Why should I?" The thunderous chuckle repeated itself. "I was the instrument of Luna, her hand. By guiding me to your tribe. she provided you with the chance to distinguish yourself, to prove yourself worthy to her. You have done so. Your family is honored--your parents died well to provide us with another Lunar Exalted, and your sister shall bear a Lunar's strong children!" Once more Uka laughed -- but the laughter died, and then, there was no other sound in the forest but his rasping breath.

NEVAR FORGET.