We house rule a lot in our D&D campaigns and one of the systems that get changed often is how we handle hitpoints and wounds.
Hitpoints are an abstract number, and generally presents your ability to avoid hindering wounds. And until 0 or lower hitpoints ,you will suffer no adverse effects. Everyone knows the system I am sure.
In D&D there is a massive damage save, that is somewhat related, but we never used that. Ever.
The vitality/wound system variant is a bit too deadly and random (lucky crits can happen too easily vs the party and ruins your day).
But with threshold (as seen in SAGA), it seems you can have wounds with penalties if someone simply hits hard enough. This will allow you to roleplay a good attack ,instead of just the "finishing blow" when you drop some one below 0 hitpoints.
I know SAGA is generally crap, but I am wondering how people view the threshold system (and the condition track related to it) and what kind of experiences it offered for the people who actually tried playing SAGA.
Threshold and hitpoints (SAGA, others?)
Moderator: Moderators
An essentially decent idea poorly implemented. It creates another thing to keep track of without significantly adding any description to combat: what does -1 on the condition track mean that is different from -2?
At the same time, the -1/-2/-5/-10 progression ensures that random steps you inflict from damage are virtually irrelevant, because you have to get more than one step in before the penalty is noticeable. On the other hand, a character who is built to interact with the subsystem can undermine the way the game was intended to be played; in the campaigns I played in, we learned that a properly optimized sniper with a noble buddy can drop foes in one hit by ignoring hit points and going straight for conditions.
At the same time, the -1/-2/-5/-10 progression ensures that random steps you inflict from damage are virtually irrelevant, because you have to get more than one step in before the penalty is noticeable. On the other hand, a character who is built to interact with the subsystem can undermine the way the game was intended to be played; in the campaigns I played in, we learned that a properly optimized sniper with a noble buddy can drop foes in one hit by ignoring hit points and going straight for conditions.
FrankTrollman wrote:Coming or going, you must deny people their fervent wishes, because their genuine desire is retarded and impossible.
Personally I use an offshoot of vitality and wounds.
You get Wound Points equal to 5+con mod. Heals at a rate of 2+con mod per day with medical care, half that without. HP heals to full with a short rest.
You get a damage threshold, which is something like Level+Con Score+Armor Bonus+Natural Armor Bonus.
An attack that exceeds your damage threshold deals 1 wound point of damage. For every 10 points of damage the threshold is exceeded, you take an extra wound point. Critical strikes deal an automatic 1 wound point. (So if you have a DT of 30, get crit for 40 points of damage, you take 3 wound points).
Hit points are treated as normal, except when you hit 0 or less, rather than dropping, your damage threshold is reduced by 10, and you take 1 wound for every 5 points the attack exceeds your threshold. So a character reduced to 0 hit points with an attack that deals 30 damage, who normally has 30 DT, would effectively have 20 DT, and take 3 wound points in damage. In general anyone who is dropped to 0 HP is expected to drop quickly.
When reduced to 0 wound points, a character falls unconscious, and may or may not be bleeding out as per normal bleeding out rules. You die at -5 wound points.
The system still has its issues. For example just putting it straight into regular D&D doesn't quite work simply because damage in D&D can be anywhere from absolute shit (d8+20 or whatever) to instantly kill anybody. No hit point system can stand up to that kind of abuse. But in a system where individual hits fall within a certain range, the damage threshold numbers can be tweaked relatively easily to hit that range, making wounds something that happens, but not constantly.
Other things are pretty easy to tack on. Penalties for taking wound damage for example. Or even negative effects based on how many wounds you take from a single hit (for example you may bring back massive damage rules. If you take 5 wound points in a single hit [ie 40 more damage than your DT] it becomes a save or die. You could make something similar for limb loss or whatever if that's your thing.)
You get Wound Points equal to 5+con mod. Heals at a rate of 2+con mod per day with medical care, half that without. HP heals to full with a short rest.
You get a damage threshold, which is something like Level+Con Score+Armor Bonus+Natural Armor Bonus.
An attack that exceeds your damage threshold deals 1 wound point of damage. For every 10 points of damage the threshold is exceeded, you take an extra wound point. Critical strikes deal an automatic 1 wound point. (So if you have a DT of 30, get crit for 40 points of damage, you take 3 wound points).
Hit points are treated as normal, except when you hit 0 or less, rather than dropping, your damage threshold is reduced by 10, and you take 1 wound for every 5 points the attack exceeds your threshold. So a character reduced to 0 hit points with an attack that deals 30 damage, who normally has 30 DT, would effectively have 20 DT, and take 3 wound points in damage. In general anyone who is dropped to 0 HP is expected to drop quickly.
When reduced to 0 wound points, a character falls unconscious, and may or may not be bleeding out as per normal bleeding out rules. You die at -5 wound points.
The system still has its issues. For example just putting it straight into regular D&D doesn't quite work simply because damage in D&D can be anywhere from absolute shit (d8+20 or whatever) to instantly kill anybody. No hit point system can stand up to that kind of abuse. But in a system where individual hits fall within a certain range, the damage threshold numbers can be tweaked relatively easily to hit that range, making wounds something that happens, but not constantly.
Other things are pretty easy to tack on. Penalties for taking wound damage for example. Or even negative effects based on how many wounds you take from a single hit (for example you may bring back massive damage rules. If you take 5 wound points in a single hit [ie 40 more damage than your DT] it becomes a save or die. You could make something similar for limb loss or whatever if that's your thing.)
Ok, so the idea of threshold is nice to differentiate between small and wounds that count. Except implementation might be tricky in D&D 3.5 cause of the variance in damage numbers.
This is actual less a problem for me, as our next campaign will have tighter numbers and ranges (yeah, we gonna gut a lot of magic item and certain magic spells and replace them with other type of spells).
The idea of armor adding to your threshold sounds like a nice addition at least.
This is actual less a problem for me, as our next campaign will have tighter numbers and ranges (yeah, we gonna gut a lot of magic item and certain magic spells and replace them with other type of spells).
The idea of armor adding to your threshold sounds like a nice addition at least.
Yah, I think Thresholds work best if you have a small/static amount of health. Like in Deadlands each body location has 5 wounds (rather the 5th one ruins the location, resulting in death or dismemberment depending upon the location).
Tracking wound thresholds without having some sort of static and smallish amount of health would be a pain in the ass. Not saying you can't establish thresholds for characters with large and varied HP amounts, it's just more of a pain to track and keep on the rails.
A good "wound number" is probably somewhere between 4-10. Then no separate threshold to track, you know that if you have taken X wounds, you have whatever penalty or problem.
Tracking wound thresholds without having some sort of static and smallish amount of health would be a pain in the ass. Not saying you can't establish thresholds for characters with large and varied HP amounts, it's just more of a pain to track and keep on the rails.
A good "wound number" is probably somewhere between 4-10. Then no separate threshold to track, you know that if you have taken X wounds, you have whatever penalty or problem.
That sounds something like one of the older mechwarrior systems,
where you had a total HP, but limbs have a threshold, where a attack will
do nasty things if you go over it, and very nasty things if you double it.
I was reasonably happy with the system.
where you had a total HP, but limbs have a threshold, where a attack will
do nasty things if you go over it, and very nasty things if you double it.
I was reasonably happy with the system.
King Francis I's Mother said wrote:The love between the kings was not just of the beard, but of the heart