Necromancers and Evokers

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Chamomile
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Necromancers and Evokers

Post by Chamomile »

Recently I've been splitting the Wizard/Sorcerer into five different classes (Artificer, Beguiler, Evoker, Necromancer, and Summoner). I've found that people are pretty receptive to the concept of replacing the Wizard/Sorcerer with other, less absurdly overpowered classes, and probably the biggest strength of the Wizard class is that it is incredibly flexible, so hopefully splitting it up will help to bring them down to mortal Rogue levels.

With the mission statement out of the way, I'm wondering if 1) these classes need things other than their spells to make them interesting, and if so, 2) what class features can I give the Necromancer? Like the other four, the Necromancer can cast magic missile at-will as a spell-like ability and has a couple of at-will cantrips as well, in his case, Mage Hand and Disrupt Undead. Other than that I've basically been giving him all the Tome of Necromancy minion feats for free as soon as they come online, though this problematically means he caps out at level 9. His spells are basically just the Necromancy school and part of Divination. I've considered making the Necromancer a 10-level class and telling people to take a Tome of Necromancy prestige class once they get past that.

Secondly, the Evoker. I don't really know what to do with him. He needs to be beefed up a bit but I'm not sure how. How can I make spitting out fireballs relevant in 3.X? It's fine if the actual Evocation school has to be ditched, but the fundamental concept of the blaster mage needs to be there.
Last edited by Chamomile on Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rasmuswagner »

The Evoker could be made out of the Warlock. You can do damage, and you get abilities to add AoE or multi-targets, change the energy type, make it persistent like a wall, stuff like that.
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Post by Voss »

Could just use the Dread Necromancer and Warmage as the base for those two (which is really why they exist anyway).

The evocation is fairly stupid as levels go higher, simply because of hit point bloat. To keep up, the dice just have to go crazy. Alternately you can go for 'save or die' themed spells. Generally just reflavor crap with an elemental effect. Finger of death could involve sucking all the water out of people or spontaneous combustion or whatever. Raiding some other sources (like various attempts at Oriental Adventures books) for more elemental spells might help as well.
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Post by Juton »

Regarding the Necromancer, if you don't want to give him an undead army, I've always liked the idea of buffs with a catch. Like the necromancer can animate the Fighter's body (while he's still alive) but the Fighter might take con damage each round because of the negative energy. The opposite works, if the Necromancer gives debuffs with a silver lining.

As for differentiating classes, I would lean towards abilities that synergize a bit with the core class concepts, but not necessarily spell casting. Give the summoner good diplomacy type skills to interact with what he's summoned and get good deals for pacts. Beguilers get bluff/sense motive because they work in the field of deception, etc.
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Post by Whatever »

A better approach would be to have the Evoker add thematic status-effect riders to the spells you cast. You don't want to overdo it, since some of those effects are basically save-or-lose, but adding effects like entangled, deafened, or on fire at low levels, and moving into knockdowns, blinding, or exhaustion would make the spells much more compelling to cast. At high levels you can start applying the game over effects like petrified/frozen, stunned, etc.
Last edited by Whatever on Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Winnah »

Smart spells. It's one thing to cast a fireball at a target. It's quite another to evoke a series of fireballs that fly around in a grid pattern until they find a target, at which point they all home in and detonate.

Kind of like minionmancy, but with spell stats instead of monster stat blocks.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

Status effects should be reasonably well-covered by the Beguiler and Necromancer already. What the Evoker's famous spell, fireball, is best at is being a sniper weapon with an AoE so large you don't need to see what you're shooting at (which is good, because you can't see that far). Unfortunately, fireball is the best blasty Evocation spell independent of level, so you'll need to make two dozen new spells, but if you go with Winnah's angle, plus all the other modern explosives (remote C4, timed bombs, flamethrowers, etcetera), you should have a decent starting point for making a strategic demolitionist.

Edit: Well, I guess that time I played an Evoker and didn't feel useless at all had a lot to do with spells like fly and dimension door. You need movement abilities in there.
Last edited by Foxwarrior on Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

There's no Transmuter or Abjurer on the list of 5 mages. That means there are a number of cool things Evokers should be able to do.

1. Cast wards that protect their allies, especially from energy damage.
2. Cast debuffs that make elemental damage more powerful or override resistance/immunity to energy damage.
3. Transform matter to energy in a splashy, generally explosive manner. Light candles with your mind at level 1, blow up a soldier with a thought at level 10. Perhaps go with subtler transforming magic like petrification, but definitely not Fabricate (that's the Artificer's turf).
4. Turn into an elemental-themed monster. Then kick ass with your 12 foot tall body made of solid fire.
5. At higher levels, evoke multiple things at once. A level 6 evocation spell might drench something in water, electrify it, and then freeze the water into ice. Multiple status effects, plus some damage.
6. Summon short-duration elemental effects. A tornado of fire that vanishes after 1 minute per level, or a rain of acid that covers an acre.
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Post by Chamomile »

The Artificer has huge chunks of Transmutation. A couple of those classes also pull a few spells from Abjuration (the Summoner gets stuff like Dimensional Anchor, for example), but the protection from energy stuff is unused.
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Post by Emerald »

The main thing the evoker needs is volume, I think. Both in the sense that D&D magic doesn't really happen on a wide scale--there are lots of spells to murderize one creature or a handful of them, but not many that can wipe out castles and cities--so giving the evoker the mile-radius acid rain spells or 300-foot radius fireballs or whatever would be nice, and in the sense that he should be putting out the most spells in the shortest amount of time, either multiple synergistic effects like Avoraciopoctules' "drench them, shock them, then freeze them" suggestion or just the ability to launch a dozen lightning bolts at once to punch through hardness and a structure's dozens or hundreds of HP.
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Post by Koumei »

If I could google image search at work, I'd provide a link to what "the archetypical Evoker" should be. Basically I'm thinking Touhou. Flying around under their own power, launching huge AoE spreads of damage that are more or less impossible to 100% avoid (no, I don't mean "Ban Evasion", I just mean vast areas covered with gaps for their allies, even putting trap cards on the field, and making Ref Half so relevant that Evasion is a class feature you really like having).

With brightly coloured splashy effects. Also the hats.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Evokers should be scary up close as well as far away.
Image

Evokers should be able to make elemental servitors to guard their dungeons, but they shouldn't be able to summon combat monsters anywhere near effective as a summoner or artificer.
Image


Koumei wrote:If I could google image search at work, I'd provide a link to what "the archetypical Evoker" should be. Basically I'm thinking Touhou. Flying around under their own power, launching huge AoE spreads of damage that are more or less impossible to 100% avoid (no, I don't mean "Ban Evasion", I just mean vast areas covered with gaps for their allies, even putting trap cards on the field, and making Ref Half so relevant that Evasion is a class feature you really like having).

With brightly coloured splashy effects. Also the hats.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

If summoning is an option for Evokers, I figure this is a decent basis for comparison. By the time Evokers can infuse an element with life to produce This with some prep, fielding This should be trivial for the Summoner.
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Post by Winnah »

A typical D&D wizard can already use a familiar as a limited spell delivery system.

Refluffing that ability as the Evoker imparting a fraction of their intellect and personality to their favorite blast magic. That should allow them to dominate action economy assuming they can prepare.

Whether you want the Evoker to retain an empathic link to their magic is another matter...Some arsehole will probably use Cloudkill to scout a dungeon, which is probably a bad thing. Using a Bigby's Hand to deliver touch spells is just overkill, but also kind of cool.

If I were going to pick an Evocation staple, to use as a theme to build a class around, it would be Contingency, followed closely by the numerous Telekenisis and Force effects. Just a few random thoughts.
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Post by Maxus »

I keep meaning to write up a telekinesis-based mage whose big shtick is All Force Hands, All The Time.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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Post by virgil »

Maxus wrote:I keep meaning to write up a telekinesis-based mage whose big shtick is All Force Hands, All The Time.
Feel free to steal from my Force Mage for ideas.
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Post by K »

The problem is that you are confusing role with flavor.

A Necromancer summons undead (Summoning), shoots death rays (Evoking), controls people by stealing their souls (Beguiling), and turns dragon skulls into magic hats (Artificing).

An Evoker is a role and not a flavor because everyone should be shooting things at people, and the same holds for the other roles.
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Post by Shatner »

I had a campaign where I did something similar, splitting wizards up into sub-classes. I gave each sub-class a couple of abilities and then access to some thematic spells early, similar to cleric domain spells. Here's what I had for Necromancers and Evokers:
Necromancy (Necromancer) - makes lots of undead minions, taps into negative energy
1) can rebuke undead like a cleric, start with improved turning and extra turning feats, is healed by inflict spells (and cure spells unless they're undead)
2) all undead start indifferent to the caster, caster can spontaneously convert prepared spells into "inflict" spells of the same level or lower (provided they know the spell)
0th - Inflict Minor Wounds
1st - Animate Dead, Command Undead, Inflict Light Wounds
2nd - Speak with Dead, Desecrate, Inflict Moderate Wounds
3rd - Death Ward, Enervation, Inflict Serious Wounds
4th - Raise Dead, Slay Living, Inflict Critical Wounds
...

People have been trying to play the arcane skeleton/zombie raiser for years and the results have... varied. The pale master is weak in execution and the dread necromancer is too little too late. Wizards do have powerful necromatic spells but those spells are all about shooting beams of crackling negative energy at people or stuffing someone's soul into a gemstone. That's a perfectly fine and effective route to take but it's not what people are thinking of when they write "Necromancer" on their character sheet. So, this guy starts with "Animate Dead" and can command undead better than a cleric of the same level (assuming the same charisma score). A necromancer specializes in bridging the gap between life and death; both by bringing the dead back to life and by killing the living.
Evocation (Warmage) - blows shit up effectively
1) can change energy types during preparation (fire, acid, cold, electricity), gain intimidate as a class skill
2) all evocation spells are empowered for free (+50% damage), starts with maximize spell feat
0th - Magic Missile
1st - Fireball, Lightening Bolt, Gust of Wind
2nd - Call Lightning, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold
3rd - Delay Blast Fireball, Shout, Wall of Fire
4th - Flame Strike, Call Lightning Storm, Sun Beam
...

FIREBALL AT 1ST LEVEL?!? OMG!!! I feel my changes here warrant extra explaination. Generally speaking, evocation spells suck at the level they are received. Evocation spells, at best, do Xd6 damage (save for half) where X is the character's level. A rogue does an extra ((X/2)+1)d6 damage PER ATTACK and they aren't blowing their load while they do it. Rather than just making evocation spells more damaging, I'm making them cheaper. Fireball at 1st level does 1d6 damage, save for half. With a lucky roll (and a bunch of unlucky reflex saves) that might kill a room full of orcs. Then again, Sleep does basically the same thing but it doesn't require the initial lucky roll. So, if someone wants to be Splodo the collateral damage wizard I say give them damage spells early and often. For similar such opinions, read the links below. Warmages tend to join military forces (public or private) and dress like a grunt so assassins don't single them out. When among civilians they tend to wear clothing which notifies EVERYONE that they can reduce the town to flaming rubble with a gesture so no one tries to start anything. Often times, people will hire a warmage just to have one standing on their side of the table during negotiations. This is the iron age and all transactions occur under the threat of force and a warmage is a considerable threat.
Abjuration (Abjurer) - protective specialist, counters magic and extraplanar creatures
1) proficiency with all armor and shields, doesn't suffer arcane spell failure
2) gains spell resistance 11 + caster level, counts as five caster levels higher for the purposes of dispeling
0th - Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos
1st - Greater Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, Protection from Energy
2nd - Dismissal, Lesser Globe of Invulnerablility, Dimensional Anchor
3rd - Break Enchantment, Spell Immunity, Freedom of Movement
4th - Globe of Invulnerablility, Spell Resistance, Dispel Good/Evil/Law/Chaos
...

Generally speaking, defense is a fools game in DnD. Rather than spending actions immunizing yourself and your party members against an opponent's attacks it's often more expedient to contribute to killing said foe sooner; then everyone is safe. Well, you can be successful on defense, you just have to be REALLY FREAKIN' GOOD at it. And an abjurer is. Wizards are generally easy to spot; just look for an air of authority from someone who isn't more heavily armed or armored than a peasant. Abjurers defy this convention by layering themselves in heavy armor, carrying mighty shields and sloughing off magic and blows like water. They can tap into spells four or more levels sooner than others (ten levels earlier in the case of Greater Dispel Magic) and use it to unbind the magic of others. The abjurers stand as a bulwark against denizens from other planes of existence as well as magic run amok. They tend to make all magic users around them nervous, despite or perhaps because abjurers are powerful magic users in their own right.
Divination (Seer) - versatile, information gatherer and problem solver
1) can spontaneously convert any prepared spell into any known divination spell of the same level or lower
2) sense motive and gather information both class skills, gain the bardic knowledge ability
0th - Comprehend Languages
1st - See Invisibility, Find Traps, Detect Good/Evil/Law/Chaos
2nd - Arcane Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Tongues
3rd - Scrying, Locate Creature, Divination
4th - Telepathic Bond, Contact other Planes, Prying Eyes
...

Unlike the stereotype of the Loremaster who never leaves their personal libraries, seers regularly adventure because they learn so much and they're so darn good at it. They are capable of spontaneously converting any other spell they prepared into the divination spell they need RIGHT NOW. Is the man offering to guide the party really a plant of the evil overlords? Where are those etheral filchers standing and what the heck is that mountaineer actually saying? While another wizards says "talk to me tomorrow when I've prepared my spells correctly" and a sorcerer says "I don't know that spell" the seer gives you an answer. Furthermore, their hunt for knowledge has given them an esoteric understanding of the world, allowing them to know things seemingly a priori. They make exceptional detectives and can serve as the parties face if they don't dump charisma or their social skills.
My Explanation to my players wrote:What have I done: Basically, I've given each form of wizard-specialization a pair of powers similar to what a cleric gets from their domains. Also, I've made a list of spells made available to the specialist at a level earlier than a wizard would normally get it, if at all.

Why have I done it: Wizards have the worst class chasis in the game. You have the worst base attack bonus, the fewest favored saves, the smallest hit die and the fewest weapon and armor proficiences of any other class. To be a wizard is basically to be a commoner with a strong will save and a magic pet. Yet wizards rock because the one thing they DO get, access to the wizard/sorcerer spell list, is so awesome as to make up for all that... most of the time. Wizards win but mainly because of a handful of power spells that are sprinkled throughout the list. Unfortunately, this results in every wizard casting "sleep" and "color spray" at 1st level or they are under-performing. Furthermore, many wizard archtypes don't work as advertized, or don't work at all (I'm looking at you, necromancer). As such, I'm retooling wizard specialists to be distinct. When a wizard specializes in divinations, I want that to mean more than just having one extra divination spell of each level. Really, this is more of a nit-pick than a desperately NEEDED balance change (unlike the replacement monk class below) but I felt it would improve things thematically and mechanically. Consider this; a wizard and a cleric both cast Dispel Magic during combat. During that one round at least, the wizard is an idiot. The cleric gets access to dispel magic at the same time the wizard does (5th level), is just as effective at dispelling things but has a d8 hit die, is layered in armor, has a favored fort save, access to EVERY SINGLE CLERIC SPELL EVER (wizards can only cast what's in their spellbook; clerics can pick any divine spells on their list every morning) and can actually hit something with their weaponry when the want to. The wizard is more likely to get hurt and killed during that round (or at least have their spell disrupted) than the cleric but is doing the exact same thing. He is suddenly the go-bots to the cleric's transformers. If people want wizards to raise necromatic armies (and they do), they should be better at that then the clerics (which they aren't). They have to, otherwise the player would be better off writing "cleric" on their character sheet and calling themselves a necromancer. And the same applies to layering the party in protective wards, summoning monsters and peering into the aether to discern the best route to follow. I'm not trying to have wizards replace clerics, just to have specializations where they excel beyond what a cleric or a druid could do because you are giving a heck of a lot up just writing "wizard" on your character sheet instead of "cleric".

Thematically, a wizard specializing in evocation, for example, has spent a large portion of their time focusing on one particular aspect of the arcane (in this case, the 'splody variety). The proprietary techniques and discoveries in magical research have given them access to spells several levels before others. Some spells may not even be available to wizards of other specializations as they are normally only available to divine casters. Mechanically, this specialist has three new spells added to their spell list that they can learn (they don't know them by default). All the new spells are of whatever magic school they are specialized in (so a necromancer casting "Raise Dead" is casting a necromancy spell, not a conjuration spell like it is for clerics) and are not available to non-specialists unless they could cast that spell normally. So, the warmage couldn't copy "Raise Dead" out of the spellbook of a necromancer because it doesn't make sense to him. He could copy "Command Undead" because that is a normal Wizard/Sorcerer spell BUT it would be a 2nd level spell for the warmage, not a 1st level spell like it is for the necromancer. Wizards who specialize in the same sub-school of magic can copy spells like usual between them.
Last edited by Shatner on Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

That is a pretty good point. Generally, when I hear Evoker, I think of an elemental-themed wizard. The guy who hurls blasts of fire and lightning around should also be able to bind storm elementals and make flaming swords.

Perhaps it would be better to replace the Evoker with a straight-up elementalist?
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Post by Tumbling Down »

I, many years ago, had the same idea about splitting the schools up, and even though I am not sure if I would go about it the same way, were I to to do it today, I guess I can still share my then-thoughts on the matter

See, I also ran in to the problem of Evocation sucking asses like they were candy-kanes.
So first I thought about making the pre-existing evocations better, writing some new and better evocations or moving some other good spells to evocation. But then, all that sounded like a lot of fucking work, and I sure wasn't gonna be the one to do it.
Also, I was not sure if a bunch of supercharged blasting shit could really continue to hold the attention of anyone without downs syndrome.

In the end I decided to solve the problem by welding a good school and a shitty school together, and even though it didn't quite add up, I guess I still ended up with three reasonably solid classes.
Ultimately, I stuck Evocation together with Transmutation, because I figured they'd produce sort of a classic dnd wizard. The kind of dude who did not have an army of undead or demons or whatever, but who could fly, blow shit up, turn people to stone, blow more shit up, walk throug walls, blow even more shit up, control the weather, blow all the shit up, turn in to a dragon and so on.

So unless you are married to your five classes, I would suggest that you consider whether Evocation really deserves to be its own school, and whether hard-fixing is worth the time.

Anyway, about the Necromancer. Spells are still a casters big trick, and I would, again, sugest expanding the spell list with some other shit to make it less narrow in scope.
I ended up sticking Illusion and Necromancy together, since I figured the whole death-shadow-evil-deception-2spooky4me thing was sort of vaguely thematic.
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Post by Maxus »

I thought about evocation. I remember putting up my idea once.

It basically came down to "make evocation more reliable".

I.e, fuck d6's. You could totally do something like make an evocation do (2+Int) per caster level of an elemental damage.

Higher-level spells could do (5 + Int) or even (7 + Int). If you wanted variance, maybe some variable could be produced. But the best way, to my mind, would be to make evocation a source of decent, reliable damage over a large area.

Also, evocations should actually do shit to interact with the world. Fireball literally does set shit on fire and melts the top inch or so of rock after a certain point. Acid puts holes in walls and pits in floors. Cold freezes over water so you can walk on it and freezes ground so it trips people. So that you can create tactical effects worth a damn as you do damage
Last edited by Maxus on Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

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Post by Chamomile »

The only thing from the existent school of Evocation that needs to be in the game is the part where you kill your enemies with a hail of fire and death. Expanding it past just what the actual school of Evocation gives us in 3.X is not only okay, but almost certainly necessary. If the concept I end up with is better described as an Elementalist than an Evoker, that's fine (the Artificer used to be called the Transmuter before I fleshed it out).
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Post by tussock »

Artificer, Beguiler, Evoker, Necromancer, and Summoner
Close enough to my own set.

[*] Evoker: everything elemental, raw, fast, change. Summoning and controlling elementals (all short-duration and can backfire), from shooting elemental matter to shrouding yourself in elemental matter to becoming elemental. Travel to the elemental planes (evoking a big enough fire to be able to step through it into the plane of fire). And whatever all that needs to take the team along. D&D, so earth-air-fire-water, plus quasi- and para-, so the evoker can draw up foul ooze or suffocating vacuum or desiccating salt just as well as fire and lightning (as a druid is limited to). Obviously, you get to be immortal, like the elements.

[*] Necromancer: everything dying and dead and the creeping shit that lives on the putrescent corpses. Plus it's a 'mancy, so you can bite the head of a chicken and use the blood to divine the future, a little. Basically, you can do anything the undead can do, only as spells, and also call forth, command, and make horrid dry sex with the undead. Also insects and vermin. Invisibility to undead, protection from vermin, poisoning and anti-poison, vampiric healing, whatever. Obviously, you get to be immortal, like the undead.

[*] Summoner/Seer: magical bounty-hunter. Calling on the outer planes for information and aid. Travel magic by bargaining with your summons. Free divine/fiendish henchman. All long-term and planning type magic based off the divination. May work from home, sending out agents to do the dirty work (play the summons and leave the caster at home for normal XP). Obviously, you get to be immortal, like the outsiders.

[*] Enchantment/Illusion: sooooo much power. I'm invisible, but my "new friends" are murdering you all anyway. Oh, and look over there -> ... it's your worst nightmare. Obviously, you get to be immortal, or at least look that way. Who can be sure? Totally also makes +1 swords.

[*] Artici, uh, no. I used the Transmuter/Abjurer for the rest. Classic witch, flying broom, demonic familiar, turned you into a toad, and made the rains fail. Could not be drowned in the trial, so had to burn them at the stake, only the ropes turned to snakes and then there was a strange fog and someone saw a giant rat run from the pyre. Obviously, you get to be immortal there too, by making yourself young again. I guess all the classic potions and staves are them too, anti-magic and spell-turning and dispels.


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Post by nockermensch »

Winnah wrote:A typical D&D wizard can already use a familiar as a limited spell delivery system.

Refluffing that ability as the Evoker imparting a fraction of their intellect and personality to their favorite blast magic. That should allow them to dominate action economy assuming they can prepare.

Whether you want the Evoker to retain an empathic link to their magic is another matter...Some arsehole will probably use Cloudkill to scout a dungeon, which is probably a bad thing. Using a Bigby's Hand to deliver touch spells is just overkill, but also kind of cool.

If I were going to pick an Evocation staple, to use as a theme to build a class around, it would be Contingency, followed closely by the numerous Telekenisis and Force effects. Just a few random thoughts.
I should be able to find an USENET post of 2002 or so where I said that the evoker's familiar should be a magic missile.

IIRC, this was in response to someone talking about how necromancers should have a skeletal familiar. I also proposed that the illusionists' familiar could be a living figment (aka: a Tex Avery cartoon character).
@ @ Nockermensch
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Vebyast
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Post by Vebyast »

Winnah wrote:Smart spells. It's one thing to cast a fireball at a target. It's quite another to evoke a series of fireballs that fly around in a grid pattern until they find a target, at which point they all home in and detonate.

Kind of like minionmancy, but with spell stats instead of monster stat blocks.
nockermensch wrote:I should be able to find an USENET post of 2002 or so where I said that the evoker's familiar should be a magic missile.
I actually tried building this as a PrC once. It didn't turn out particularly well because it was so weird and because I couldn't find any way to make it not a strict buff to casters, but it could serve as a basis for further ideas.
Last edited by Vebyast on Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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