Anyone have a CMwYCPHtC/WoF D&D Class or Suggestions?

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:54 am

Looking at the Crusader. Some things popped up:

What sourcebook is Landlord from? I don't recall it being in the Tomes.

Isn't gaining Weapon Focus & Specialization a little lackluster as an 18th level ability?

Pointless is underpowered as a 17th level Stance, as there are ways of avoiding detection and suspicion via magic available at much lower levels.

Unless you're absorbing natural attacks, Iron Bones Boost is worse than Stone Bones because most PHB weapons have metal components (presumably made of iron).

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:03 am

Libertad wrote:Isn't gaining Weapon Focus & Specialization a little lackluster as an 18th level ability?

I believe that is the joke.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:31 pm

Even as a joke, it's underwhelming. Sure you're a high-level badass, but you can something substantial on all the other levels. Even 17th, which has no class feature added, gives two more maneuvers. Ideally, you don't want to end up with a player gaining a level, only to say "just two crappy feats? Meh."

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:28 pm

Libertad wrote:Even as a joke, it's underwhelming. Sure you're a high-level badass, but you can something substantial on all the other levels. Even 17th, which has no class feature added, gives two more maneuvers. Ideally, you don't want to end up with a player gaining a level, only to say "just two crappy feats? Meh."

I believe that is the joke.

See Also: WotC designed classes, Pathfinder designed classes, etc.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:44 pm

I think it's a joke, because Frank doesn't expect people to use this at that point in the game? Though confusingly enough, he built content for levels he knows won't be used as likely. A "joke" creation also implies it's not to see play, whereas it seems plenty playable. Other than to make the design process more amusing for him (fair enough to make the process fun for yourself), not sure why of the purpose to the joke.

Though at that point, like in my prior post, I think he should've just added the entire "weapon" line of feats, possibly a weapon specific one as well (slashing furry, the daze blunt/mace feat, supremacy etc.).

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:48 pm

If people are serious about making a playable WoF class I guess I'd better start linking old threads. While they devolved into shouting and derpery, I still think that there were some good underlying points scored by both sides. In particular was the discussion on recall, choice dismotivation, and the Big Three maladaptive responses to resource management systems. Choice dismotivation in particular completely changed the way in which I look at TTRPG design.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:44 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:If people are serious about making a playable WoF class I guess I'd better start linking old threads. While they devolved into shouting and derpery, I still think that there were some good underlying points scored by both sides. In particular was the discussion on recall, choice dismotivation, and the Big Three maladaptive responses to resource management systems. Choice dismotivation in particular completely changed the way in which I look at TTRPG design.

You can link to specific posts instead of the whole thread, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I would like to see the points you're discussing, Lago. Post away!

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:07 pm

The Crusader gets their endgame content almost entirely from their maneuvers, which are marginally intense at that point. For fuck's sake, your inspiration deck picks up a auto-success Foil Action and a strike that allows you to layer on any conditions you want (including dead or petrified if the target in question is someone you really don't like). Seriously: who gives a rat's ass what your class chart is giving you at that point? 18th level could say "Your Dog Dies" and it would still be worth taking, because it doesn't make any fucking difference what your class chart says at that point.

It's a piece of sad commentary on the state of affairs that when a character's primary method of interacting with the game world is through spells (or maneuvers), that people will still notice and complain if the things actually on the class chart are minimal or non-existent even at levels where you seriously get totally awesome spells (or maneuvers) that make you win D&D.

-Username17

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:22 pm

I'm just trying to provide constructive criticism. It's a good class all around in providing options every level, which is why the feat choices jumped out at me.

What are your responses to the other things in my post, such as Stone Bones vs. Iron Bones?

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:41 pm

Ya know, I think I'm going to have to write up a class that gets all its power through maneuvers/spells/masturbation and have the Special line be nothing but shit like "Your Dog Dies", "You Contract Oral Herpes from a Princess", "The IRS Breaks Your Thumbs", etc.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:03 pm

NineInchNall wrote:Ya know, I think I'm going to have to write up a class that gets all its power through maneuvers/spells/masturbation and have the Special line be nothing but shit like "Your Dog Dies", "You Contract Oral Herpes from a Princess", "The IRS Breaks Your Thumbs", etc.

I would play that.

Emerald · Post by **Emerald** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:32 pm

NineInchNall wrote:Ya know, I think I'm going to have to write up a class that gets all its power through maneuvers/spells/masturbation and have the Special line be nothing but shit like "Your Dog Dies", "You Contract Oral Herpes from a Princess", "The IRS Breaks Your Thumbs", etc.

Hell, if you give it a blind oracle- or wish backlash- type "give up X to get magic related to X" flavor and tie the class features to your selection of maneuvers or whatever, I could see that turning out really well: You can learn scrying spells now, but you have to gouge out your eyes to do that. You can learn summoning spells now, but any pets or other animals you like will die in gruesome ways. You can learn charm spells now, but your actual friends don't want to spend time with you and anyone you sleep with gives you an STD. You can learn creation spells now, but you're taxed 200% the price of anything you make by the local government.

LR · Post by LR » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:50 am

Emerald wrote:You can learn creation spells now, but you're taxed 200% the price of anything you make by the local government.

Abilities like that really need to take the world in which they exist into account. I can't think of any reason one would care about getting a 200% return on investment on everything they make.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:14 pm

Why does World Ender exist at level 19 when Five Shadow Creeping Enervation of Icy Darkness and Seering Light Strike exists at level 18 and does everything it does and then some?

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:54 pm

Libertad wrote:I'm just trying to provide constructive criticism. It's a good class all around in providing options every level, which is why the feat choices jumped out at me.

What are your responses to the other things in my post

Similar intent here, so I don't really understand why Frank is seeking to condemn that. When I even thanked him for the content, and spoke of my enthusiasm for it,so only fitting I comment on something I'd care about, and likely want to use. He obviously knows better, and implying it's bad to comment on someones work, is the words like that of Pathfinder's Marketing stunt, or most DM's/RPG designers.

Like the above post I'm following up wondering if be willing to comment on my post (and many others ideally) as well? Though given, you did just answer #6 for me inadvertently, so I appreciate that being cleared up.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:29 pm

I'm not condemning people for criticism. I am saying that the last four levels of the class are literally a sad comment on how people read D&D classes. It has one "empty" level (where you get a fifth maneuver per round, so it isn't empty at all), you get "two bonus feats" (that are so meaningless that they don't even matter), you get a level where the only that happens is that you continue the progression of gained stances (so it's exactly as "empty" as level 17 but no one calls attention to it), and you get a level where you get a capstone that does absolutely nothing but sounds incredibly impressive. All the official classes do these things, I just happened to put them in "ironically". With finger quotes.

The last four levels are just almost every single thing that's wrong with the presentation of 3.5 class content. I put them in as a sad comment about the medium, but I put them at the end because I didn't think they would really bother people there.

radiantphoenix wrote:Why does World Ender exist at level 19 when Five Shadow Creeping Enervation of Icy Darkness and Seering Light Strike exists at level 18 and does everything it does and then some?

I could give you a horseshit answer about how you aren't allowed to double up maneuvers, so having a new maneuver that is nearly as stupidly ridiculous as SCEoIDaSLS is still profoundly valuable, but really that's just a mistake on my part. World Ender should have a higher priority statement like "destroyed" so that it gets around immunities that SCEoIDaSLS doesn't.

-Username17