Some quick SR4 questions

[Silent Wayfarer]

I posted this in the wrong forum because I was retarded. In an effort to prove my intelligence I have deleted it there and reposted it here.

1) Gel Rounds from Arsenal: apparently they let you contain a dose of a chemical, which will be Narcoject because I prize nonlethality and leave big uglies to the Rigger. IIRC they aren't affected by hits from accuracy but they also ignore armor. Is that correct?

Also, I thought of using Lael because it's Narcoject+memory loss, but it's fucking expensive. Opinions?

2) My GM is banning FFBA and PPP armor because apparently they break the armor cap. Does that even make sense in any way (note, my BOD 1 slutninja uses Second Skin bodysuits with chameleon cloaking)?

3) Can I get a shock glove as a weapon focus?

4) How does a sam specializing in Automatics deal with a Force 8 spirit? Will HVBR full bursts see the beastie off? Or should she just run?

[Korgan0]

2- yep. By stacking FFBA, PPP, and a lined coat you can get the same armor as milspec, at a fraction of the cost.

4- Check if SnS is affected by ItNW. Otherwise, since burst bonus damage doesn't count towards hardened armour, you're SOL. Explosives or ramming should do the trick.

[Captain_Karzak]

(1) You are thinking of capsule rounds not gel rounds. I highly recommend Stick and Shock ammo for non-lethal takedowns, or just for winning the game in general.

The problem with using toxins like Narcojet to takedown opponents is the onset time. Narcojet, which has an onset time of "immediate," will only affect opponents at the end of the current combat turn (not initiative pass).

Narcojet, which is one of the best toxins BTW, works okay in splash grenades (fired from an airburst-linked grenade launcher). Basically you lob a grenade or two at a cluster of targets and then play hide and seek until they get sleepy. There's a MGL-6 grenade launcher in arsenal that's the size of a pistol. Use that to dispense your toxins instead of capsule rounds.

Drugs like Laes don't really have mechanics the way toxins like Narcojet do. It's like it never occurred to the Developers that this stuff might be used offensively. In any case almost no GM is going to rule that drugs have a faster onset time than weaponized toxins.

Laes is sorta useful for the memory loss property that your mentioned. You can dose up your opponents once you've incapacitated them by more conventional means. Also remember that cyber eyes, comlinks, and smartlinked guns are all tools that an opponent will frequently have that may have recorded your activities. So wiping just organic memories is often insufficient for covering your tracks.

Some GM's may assign a power score (default is 6) to drugs applied in an offensive manner to see if their effects can be mitigated by a body resistance test. That would be a houserule though.

The other problem with drugs/toxins is that someone sporting chemically sealed armor is going to be completely immune to this tactic. So you probably shouldn't be highly reliant on toxins to take care of difficult opposition.

(2) FFBA and PPP aren't huge balance issues. They are a bit of powercreep. PPP does not help anyone break the armor cap. Only FFBA does that.

With both FFBA and PPP and various types of armored clothing, it's pretty easy to get decent armor totals while looking completely unarmored.

Depending on what the nature of your opposition is, this is a very big deal, or it seriously does not fucking matter. Armor is pretty effective against book-statted grunts because the stats on all characters made by the game developers are WTFBBQ terrible. Against non-sucktastic opposition, the additional armor from FFBA will probably not save your life.

(3) Sure. If you astrally project with it, don't expect it to deal 5S(e) base damage though. It'll just be a glove. It should work normally on the physical realm. Not sure what happens if you are astrally perceiving and fighting an astral form (well chances are that astral from is a spirit and most spirits will whoop your ass in unarmed combat anyway).

(4) Use Stick and Shock ammunition. It's really good stuff. It's pretty effective against almost anything - it's not just for spirits. By RAW it's AP -1/2 applies to a spirit's armor just like anything else.

Also make called shots.

So with a light pistol loaded with SnS ammo: base damage 6S(e) + 4 from called shot + net hits. So with only one net hit you could damage even a force 10 spirit (hardened armor 20, reduced to 10 by SnS's AP -1/2).

[Blade]

1) Gel rounds are stun ammunition. I think you're talking about capsule rounds, that can be loaded with toxins. I don't remember the exact rules for capsule rounds, but remember that toxins aren't instantaneous. For example, if you shoot a guard with narcojet, he can still use a free action to send an alarm before being knocked out. With a narcojet dartgun it's not much of an issue since the target might not feel that he's been hit, but with a capsule round the target will.

2) PPP don't break the armor cap. They just help you get to Bod*2 armor in both ballistic and impact in case there isn't an existing armor that does it. FFBA on the other hand do break armor cap. They're a "Buying this book gives you +4/+2 to your armor" piece of equipment. There's no reason for a PC not to wear one, so it just raises the armor score of the group.
If I remember correctly, the second skin has a more than 2 ballistic armor, so you slutninja suffers from armor encumberance.

3) Yes, but in the astral, they'll just be regular gloves.

4) Burst fire won't help you bypass the spirit's armor. They'll only ensure that if you do bypass the armor, the spirit is toast. To bypass the armor, you'll need a lot of hits. If your GM considers that SnS halves spirit armor, it might be a good solution. If not, APDS can be interesting. But from experience regular ammo and a good roll with Edge is often more than enough.

[Blade]

Some GM's may assign a power score (default is 6) to drugs applied in an offensive manner to see if their effects can be mitigated by a body resistance test. That would be a houserule though.

No, that's in Arsenal.

[UmaroVI]

These have generally been already answered but I wanted to add on the spirit: use wide (not narrow) bursts. The extra DV from narrow bursts won't help bypass ITNW, but the extra net hits you get because you wide bursted do.

If SnS isn't nerfed, you can easily drop it in one action, if you get an action before it WTFpwns you.

If SnS is nerfed, you can still hurt it but it's harder. APDS ammo will get you to 7P/-5, which means you need 5 net hits. If you wide burst, that is doable. Alternatively, turn off FA, and make a called shot for -4 to hit, +4 DV, and now you just need to connect.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Good advice, thanks. All right, so for melee skill; should I go for Exotic Melee Weapon (Monowhip) or Unarmed +Shock Glove?

[Captain_Karzak]

I'd go with unarmed + shock glove. You could also attack by modding your armor with Shock Frills - they do even more damage than a shock glove.

Monowhips are good, but highly illegal, so you won't always gain the benefit of those skill ranks. Unarmed will be more beneficial in a wider range of circumstances.

Basically you will always get the defensive bonus of all those unarmed skill ranks when being attacked in melee, even if both your hands are filled with an assault rifle. Whereas with the monowhip, you'd actually have to have deployed your monowhip before it helps in defense.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Also, stupid question:

I can't take specializations for a whole skill group, but can I take them for individual skills within the skill group? I don't think so, but I just want to be sure.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Also, stupid question:

I can't take specializations for a whole skill group, but can I take them for individual skills within the skill group?

[Archmage]

By RAW, if you have purchased a Skill Group, you can't buy specializations for any of the skills in that group. You have to purchase the skill separately to be able to specialize. In theory you can buy a group and then raise some individual skill within the group with karma after chargen, then buy a specialization for that skill.

[Username17]

You can in fact buy a skill group and then get adept powers or specializations on the individual skills in the group. There are sample characters that do it.

It is an open question as to whether you are technically allowed to continue buying the skill group up as a group after you've done that. But that is very low on the list of how the game fucks you for wanting to buy skills up after chargen, so whatever.

-Username17

[Captain_Karzak]

From SR4a p. 121
Only one specialization is allowed per skill, and specializations are not allowed for skill groups.

From SR4a p. 270
A character may only know one specialization per skill,
and specializations may not be applied to skill groups.

From SR4 Official FAQ http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resource ... questions/

At character creation, skill groups may not be broken up into individual skills for further improvement. Specializations may not be taken for skill group skills at character creation.

After character creation, you can break apart a skill group whenever you want. Any time you improve a single skill within a skill group, including taking a specialization for a skill in that group, that skill group is automatically broken up.

***********************************

So RAW is what Archmage said. The Official FAQ has a contradictory take. I'd guess that it's vastly more common for groups to use the FAQ interpretation. Buying a skill group would be a serious herp-derp move if the RAW was followed scrupulously. And most skill groups are still garbage even when following the much more reasonable FAQ guidance.

As an aside, the Official FAQ is not highly regarded as a source of reliable information (it's better to do what you are doing and post questions), but in this case it's guidance is in line with how I've been taught to build characters both here on TGD and on the Official Forums.

I also took a look at the sample characters. Maybe it's too early in the morning, but I couldn't find any characters who had a specialization for a skill they had taken as part of a skill group. The Gunslinger Adapt does indeed have Improved Ability in Pistols despite having the Firearms skill group, however.

[Ancient History]

Well, part of that is because I'm the one that wrote the FAQ.

[Stahlseele]

and aside from the ghoul apocalypse, your stuff is usually well enough thought out for people to like and use.