[D&D] Non-class based magics

[Prak]

D&D 3.X already has alchemy, effectively a form of magic that has little to do with one's class (especially in 3.5 where it's a craft that anyone can take).

There are a number of other "minor" magics in source material which can benefit the campaign, from giving colour and roleplaying opportunities (soothsaying, fortune reading) to minor buffs to which you don't need to devote character creation resources or find a specific caster of a given level (charms and talismans).

But the real question is, is there any real need, or, more importantly, desire for such things in D&D. Do people actually want their characters to be able to go get their horoscopes read, or carry agate stones to ward off poisoning? Are these things desirable in one kind of game, but not another? I mean, do you stop caring that agate or unicorn horn can purify poison when any fifth level druid can cast Neutralize Poison?

I'm thinking that such minor magics would likely be based on skills, and, at least as far as divinatory ones, might have a large randomness element to them.

[Korwin]

Did you want to start a new thread? Reads like you are replying to someone.

Anyway Wheel of Time had 'sort-of' non-class-based magic, but its not minor.

[Prak]

Yes, I intended to start a new thread. A few things have made me think about this, but it's its own topic.

Yeah, a lot of systems have magic that isn't tied to class, but it's not always minor. In Runequest, anyone can learn any magic, because magics are skills, and there aren't really any classes (there are backgrounds and professions, but they really only matter for character creation).

I was thinking more like

New Skill Use: Soothsaying (Kn. Nature/Arcana/Religion)
Many real world cultures believed in divination, and it wasn't always tied to "Hereditary Magic" or "Say special phrases, and wave your hands in just the right way." A lot of times it was "Observe this thing." As such, in D&D npc soothsayers may not have any levels in a spellcasting class, not even Adept. It's entirely possible that when you roll up into town, and ask for someone who can foresee the future, you're pointed to a guy who lives by a chicken farmer and has levels of expert.
Entrails Reading: (Kn. Nature) The soothsayer kills an animal, usually a chicken, cuts its stomach open, and pokes around at the guts that spill out. Somehow, this tells him that the orc clan will attack next week, and the harvest will be a bad one.
However, chickens are pretty simple creatures, and fairly small. By reading the entrails of larger, more aware, or more magical creatures, the soothsayer can perform more impressive readings.
The table below assigns DCs to how far into the future one can see, as well as bonuses for creature type, size and charisma. [/td][td]Roll Result[/td][td]Length of time into the future[/td][td]Creature Type[/td][td]Bonus[/td][td]Size Category[/td][td]Bonus[/td][td]Cha Score[/td][td]Bonus [/td][/tr]

15	Tomorrow	Animal	+0	Fine-Diminutive	-2	1-5	+0
20	Next Week	Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Giant	+1	Tiny	-1	6-10	+1
25	Next Month	Magical Beast	+2	Small	+0	11-15	+2
30	Next Season	Fey	+3	Medium	+1	16-20	+3
35	Six Months From Now	Aberration	+4	Large	+2	21-25	+4
40	Next Year	Vermin	+5	Huge	+3	25-30	+5
45	Five Years in the Future	Undead	+10	Gargantuan	+4	31-35	+6
50	A Decade	Dragon, Outsider	+15	Colossal	+5	36+	+7
55	50 Years
60	A Century
65	Five Centuries
70	1000 Years

It's pretty predictable at that point. If someone really wants to see 10,000 years into the future by reading the entrails of a chicken, I'm sure you can figure out that it's a DC 80 task.

And then there are a bunch of other divinatory methods that could be described and statted, which would use other skills, like Stone/Bone/Rune throwing (Arcana), Oracular Visions (Religion, requires psychedelic substance). Roughly the same system as Entrails Reading could be used for some other forms of "Observe natural phenomena" divination, like augury, which observes bird formations, or myrmomancy, which uses ant behaviour.

edit: the most hilarious form of divination might by Tyromancy, or divination by cheese. Seriously. I'm thinking you'd need ranks in Profession (Cheesemaker) though. On the other hand... I really want to ascribe it to something an adventurer would actually have, that way I can surprise them with "You notice something odd about the cheese in your lunch. Looking closer, you see something in the veins. It's an ill omen. Surely, you will be subjected to a grave curse on this adventure."

[RobbyPants]

D&D 3.X already has alchemy, effectively a form of magic that has little to do with one's class (especially in 3.5 where it's a craft that anyone can take).

Actually, a minor nitpick, but it really does seem that 3E did not want non-casters to have nice things.

Acid - Alchemy 1
Alchemist’s fire, smokestick, or tindertwig - Alchemy 1
Antitoxin, sunrod, tanglefoot bag, or thunderstone - Alchemy 1
<snip>

1. You must be a spellcaster to craft any of these items.

It's like they really want magic to be magic.

But the real question is, is there any real need, or, more importantly, desire for such things in D&D. Do people actually want their characters to be able to go get their horoscopes read, or carry agate stones to ward off poisoning? Are these things desirable in one kind of game, but not another? I mean, do you stop caring that agate or unicorn horn can purify poison when any fifth level druid can cast Neutralize Poison?

I think some people like that sort of thing, but like most of the skill system in 3E, it pretty much dies out around 5th level, give or take. It'd probably by a cool little subsystem you could tack onto E6, or something, but that's about it.

[Cynic]

So how vague or specific is the prediction from the skill.

As a level 1 character, I could totally see into the next season. So the orc raid, does it happen within the season or on the third day after the solstice?

Also: baby crawling is totally a stranger version of prediction than tyromancy.

[Winnah]

2nd edition D&D had the Astrology NWP, which could be used to gain knowledge of events up to 1 month away.

One of the suppliments had Omen Reading, which was like the Augury spell and Hypnotism, which was like 3e XPH's autohypnosis skill, except you did it to other people, plus you could plant minor suggestions.

The humanoids splat book also had the Danger Sense NWP, which was regarded as broken by That Guy in my old group (he loved playing backstabbing rogues).

The are probably a few more quasi-magical NWPs I could dig up if I get nostalgic and pull out my old books.

[Mistborn]

To be honest there should be more non-class options that grant minor magic effects. If people want to spend feats and skill points to get magical stuff they should be able to do that without those options being needlessly gimped when mundane characters use them.

[Avoraciopoctules]

There was a thread on feat-based magic a couple years ago.

There's one thing I think everyone is missing in all of this. The true power of the Mystic Dilettante feat lies not in using your precious precious full round pouncing charge action to cast magic missile at the hydralisk, but in gaining access to all the utility powers that form such a massive part of the Wizard power base. Fighters and their ilk normally shell out massive amounts of money in order to be able to Fly, not to mention Teleport or any of that jazz. And yes, you could totally take an intelligent item as a cohort and have it do this spellcasting and it would be nearly as inviolable as yourself, much less easy to neutralize/kidnap than a cohort, but very few people use that rules option, and to be honest it needs fixing, just like cohorts need fixing.

Spells are horribly, horribly imbalanced, flawed, and level inappropriate. If someone had gone through and fixed all the spells and had them scale properly to spell level and caster level, then with the crazy ramp up of DnD maybe being three levels behind (1 for being a Sorcerer, 2 from the feat) would be enough to make it flavourful and useful without being overpowered or making the casters (esp. secondary casters) feel small in the pants. But no-one has.. Spells are crazy, and they will continue to be crazy, and we cannot assume that people are going to only pick the appropriate-to-level ones. I have no problem with a 3rd level Fighter casting colour spray. I have no problem with a 6th level fighter casting swift fly or glitterdust or master air - but I do have a problem with an 8th level fighter casting phantom steed, swift fly, web, charm person, rope trick and silent image. Because that instantly increases the fighter's power by a level far beyond what a single feat should give. Limiting the spells known or spells per day don't really fix that, because allowing people to cherry pick is always vastly more powerful than giving people a set of pre-determined spells. Here is my solution, which is basically Akula's, very slightly modified.

Mystic Dilettante [Skill][Spellcraft]
For you, magic is a hobby.
0: Spellcraft becomes a class skill for you, regardless of what classes you have. Additionally, you don't have a spell failure chance for casting spells in armour while using this feat, and you may cast any 8 cantrips from any spell list as spell-like abilities 3/day.
4: You may cast spells as a PHB Sorcerer of your half your character level + 1. You may use any of your mental ability scores as your casting stat, chosen when you first take this feat. You may pick spells known from either the Sorc/Wizard, Druid, or Cleric spell lists, chosen when you first take this feat. Once you have made a choice, you may only learn spells from that spell list, and no other. Your caster level is equal to half your character level.
9: Once per day, you may counterspell a spell as an immediate, purely mental action that doesn't use up your swift action next round. You may use a Spellcraft check result instead of a caster level check for the purposes of this counterspell. In addition, your caster level becomes three quarters of your character level.
14: Once per day, after witnessing a spellcaster use a spell from the list of spells that you choose your spells known from (Sorc/Wizard, Druid, or Cleric), if the spell was cast this or last round, you may spend a full round action to attempt to reproduce the results. If you succeed on a spellcraft check with a DC equal to (10 + 2 x spell level + spellcaster's caster level), you successfully cast the spell, using your caster level (or the minimum level required to cast the spell, whichever is lower). In addition, your own caster level now equals your character level.
19: A number of times per day equal to the modifier of the mental ability score you chose to use to cast spells when you picked this feat, you may cast ANY non-epic spell, regardless of level, with a casting time longer than one full-round action. To do so you must make a spellcraft check with a DC equal to (10+ 2 x spell level + the minimum caster level for the spell), or the spell fails.
Special: You may take this feat more than once, but each time you must pick a different spell list to choose your spells known from. You may not pick the same list twice. The spells gained from this feat do not qualify you to use Epic Spells.

This fix gives a very limited taste of magical power, but makes up for that by giving a few other powerful and flavourey options. There is no way I could think of to control freely-picked spells in higher amounts than 1/2 character level. So, to compensate for that, i've built in a couple of other abilities that are powerful and fit the 'mystic dabbler' theme.

Credit to Akula for the chassis of the feat, and the idea.

Pyromantic Dabbler
A Fire Mage offered to set your soul on fire. For some reason, you accepted.

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can use Produce Flame as an at-will SLA. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Burning Hands, Melt, and Resist Energy (Fire) once per hour each.

9: you can also cast Fireball, Heat Metal, and Empowered Flaming Sphere once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

14: you can also cast Fire Shield, Incendiary Cloud, and Wall of Fire once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

19: you can also cast Flame Strike, Extended Summon Monster VII (Fire Elementals only), and Quickened Scorching Ray 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

Special: The damage/healing dice for the SLAs granted by this feat are uncapped (For example, Fireball is not capped at 10d6 Fire damage). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.

----------------

Casual Hexxer
You can totally curdle a glass of milk with just one evil eye from 30 paces.

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can give someone in Medium range a -2 bullshit penalty on their d20 rolls until the beginning of your next turn as an at-will SLA that takes a swift action. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Corrupt Water (as the black dragon ability), Extended Bane, and Doom once per hour each.

9: you can also cast Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness (Long range instead of Medium, lasts 10 minutes per caster level), and Contagion once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

14: you can also cast Cursed Weather (as Control Weather, but it makes things like rains of frogs), Eyebite, and Blight once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

19: you can also cast Greater Bestow Curse, Finger of Death, and Soul Bind 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

Special: All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.


-----------------

Curative acolyte
Someone has to carry the first-aid kit. Not you.

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can use Cure Minor Wounds as an at-will SLA that takes an attack action. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Cure Light Wounds, Delay Poison, and Purify Food and Drink once per hour each.

9: you can also cast Lesser Restoration, Remove Blindness/Deafness, and Remove Paralysis once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. Cure Light Wounds upgrades to Cure Moderate Wounds

14: you can also cast Raise Dead, Restoration, and Remove Curse once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. Cure Moderate Wounds upgrades to Cure Critical Wounds.

19: you can also cast Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Resurrection, and Greater Restoration 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. Cure Critical Wounds upgrades to Heal

Special: The damage/healing dice/mods for the SLAs granted by this feat are uncapped (For example, Cure Light Wounds is not capped at +5 to the hit points healed). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.

-----------------

Magician
Nobody knows precisely how you can fit so many angelic badgers into your hat

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can use Prestidigitation as an at-will SLA. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Extended Summon Monster I, Hypnotism (1d4 hit dice for every 2 caster levels, minimum 2d4), and Ventriloquism once per hour each. You may treat a single piece of clothing as a Glove of Storing as long as it is on your immediate person (if taken away for more than a round, the item concealed inside emerges).

9: you can also cast Animate Rope, Suggestion, and Silent Image once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. You may now treat 2 pieces of clothing as Gloves of Storing as long as they are on your immediate person (if taken away for more than 1 round per level, the item concealed inside emerges).

14: you can also cast Mass Suggestion, Telekinesis, and Programmed Image once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. You may now treat 3 pieces of clothing as Gloves of Storing as long as they are on your immediate person (if taken away for more than 1 minute per level, the item concealed inside emerges. You can command it to emerge early as long as the item is in Short range).

19: you can also cast Greater Shadow Conjuration, Mislead, and Veil 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. You may now treat 4 pieces of clothing as Gloves of Storing as long as they are on your immediate person (if taken away for more than 1 hour per level, the item concealed inside emerges. You can command it to emerge early as long as the item is in Long range).

Special: All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.

[LR]

Something I wrote a while ago for pre-1st level/off-class magic tricks. I didn't distinguish between orisons and cantrips, but I don't think anyone cares.

Cantrips
Cantrips are supposed to be a fledging mage's first taste of magic, so it makes little sense that only actual spellcasters can use cantrips. This is an attempt to make cantrips more believable.

Learning Cantrips
A character can learn a cantrip from a scroll of spellbook with a DC 15 Spellcraft check or learn it from a character who knows the cantrip with a DC 10 Spellcraft check. A character must have at least 1 rank in Knowledge (arcana) to learn a sorcerer/wizard cantrip, at least 1 rank in Knowledge (religion) to learn a Cleric cantrip, and at least 1 rank in Knowledge (nature) to learn a Druid cantrip. More esoteric spell lists have similar knowledge requirements. A character need not scribe cantrips; they are so simple that a character can memorize a limitless amount of them.

Cantrips per Day
Every character can cast a number of cantrips per day equal to half her character level plus the modifier of her highest mental ability score (minimum 1). Cantrips are not prepared; a character can cast any cantrip that she knows as long as she has enough cantrip spell slots left. Cantrips have a save DC of 10 + 1/2 the caster's character level + the caster's highest mental ability modifier. The caster level for a cantrip is equal to the caster's character level.

Spell Practice (Optional)
The very first time a non-spellcaster first attempts to cast a cantrip, she must make a DC 25 Spellcraft check. Failure indicates that the spell fails and that the would-be caster loses an appropriate spell slot. At each attempt afterwards, the character must make the same Spellcraft check, but with a -1 modifier to the DC. This modifier is cumulative, and increases every time the character attempts to cast a spell. If the character succeeds on the Spellcraft check, she successfully casts the spell and no longer has to make such checks for future spells.

Casters and Cantrips
A true spellcaster can learn any cantrip on her spell list and automatically knows every core spell on that list, even if she lacks the prerequisite knowledge ranks. A spellcaster has infinite cantrip slots and can cast cantrips forever.

Cantrips and Magical Writings
You don't need a super special spellbook page to write down a cantrip. You don't need super special ink, either. You don't even need paper, because you can carve your cantrip down on a stone tablet with a somewhat large chisel and it will still be legible for the purposes of spellcasting. In short, any writing material that can be used for words can also be used for cantrips.

[PoliteNewb]

But the real question is, is there any real need, or, more importantly, desire for such things in D&D. Do people actually want their characters to be able to go get their horoscopes read, or carry agate stones to ward off poisoning? Are these things desirable in one kind of game, but not another? I mean, do you stop caring that agate or unicorn horn can purify poison when any fifth level druid can cast Neutralize Poison?

In the core game, or in a Tome game for instance, no, there is probably very little point to this.

In other types of games, yes, there could be a niche for that. The answer to "who cares if agate purifies poison when a 5th level druid can do that?" is:

a.) People who are not 5th level druids and do not have access to one
b.) People who live in a world where 5th level druids do not grow on trees (like, it's seriously possible that they might go their whole life without meeting one)
c.) People who live in a world where 5th level druids CAN'T do those things.

If your baseline assumption is like standard D&D (people of moderate power in a class can do crazy shenanigans like curing poisons and diseases, flying, and magically creating junk), then you probably won't care about this stuff...or perhaps, you care about it for a few levels and then stop.

It's pretty much the same old "low level vs. high level" campaign style argument.

[Prak]

I'd forgotten that 3.5 kept the "Must be spellcaster" requirement for alchemy. Maybe I just ignore that when I'm running... Or it's been too long since I played a non-caster in D&D who had reason to take alchemy...

I remember the feat based magic thread. Not quite what I'm looking at, but they were good ideas. Ditto the cantrips thing, LR.

I did start writing a feat for totemic magic, but honestly it should be something anyone could do without one, with maybe a feat for the more impressive stuff. I mean, if totemic magic works in your setting, then pretty much anyone should be able to get the +2 to survival checks made in the woods or +1 when protecting family members that wearing a bear necklace provides. If you want bigger totemic magic in your setting, then I could see requiring a feat for the "rage as 1st level barbarian" benefit of wearing a bear skin shirt.

Other than divinatory magics based on skills, and possibly minor buffs from blessings/ritualistic magics, non-class based magics would probably just be material based, like quartz helps healing (+1 hp healed/day if carrying quartz), agate protects against poison (+1 Fort saves vrs poison if carrying agate), etc. and making small charms.

For charms, you might want an item creation feat that doesn't require spellcasting, I suppose...

Feat: Craft Charm
You know the mysteries of material and form, and the secrets of nature. You can use them to craft small talismans which provide minor, but sometimes important, benefits. If not an adventurer, you are probably a valuable member of your community, even if everyone agrees your a bit odd.
If you're an adventurer, everyone knows you're both important, and really weird.
Requirements: Craft (Bone, Stone, Jewelry or Metal) 4 ranks, Kn. (Nature, Religion or Arcana) 4r
Benefit: You can create talismans, according to the table below. This is identical to a mundane crafting roll, and unlike magical crafting in that no xp expenditure is required. The talismans you can create depend on your knowledge skills.
[ Insert Table Here ]

[...You Lost Me]

What a beautiful table you have there.

[fectin]

at least 1 rank in Knowledge (religion) to learn a Cleric cantrip,

Those have their own name: "orisons".

Anyway, on reading entrails, magic wins again. Kill a kitten, raise it as a zombie for 7gp, kill it again, get a +10 bonus.

[Prak]

Um... shit.

Well, the entire point is that more magical creatures are better for using to read the future. But honestly... do we care if seventh level wizards and fifth level clerics can get +10 on their entrails reading check at the cost of less than a platinum and a spell slot?
I mean, for that matter, magic wins again because they can summon zombies with a first or second level spell and get +10/11. (And the kitten would actually be +8, not 10, but who cares about two points...)

[LR]

at least 1 rank in Knowledge (religion) to learn a Cleric cantrip,

Those have their own name: "orisons".

I know, but I don't really care.

[Foxwarrior]

Prak Anima: How much of the future do you get to see (enough to make a cryptic statement; enough to describe everything that will happen anywhere tomorrow with a DC 15 check), and why would soothsayers typically sacrifice chickens if chickens are the least optimal choice?

[rampaging-poet]

Soothsayers would use chickens because they are cheap. 2cp a shot won't break them if they mess up unimportant readings every now and then. Larger, more expensive animals (that also take longer to grow) would only be used when it's really important.

[Prak]

And evil soothsayers can totally use humans, and get +3.

[Chamomile]

+4 if it's a lovely damsel type. That said, adventuring parties very regularly rescue peasant damsels but much more rarely risk life and limb for Steve the Crap Covered Farmer, so it might not be worth the +1 bonus.

[OgreBattle]

+4 if it's a lovely damsel type. That said, adventuring parties very regularly rescue peasant damsels.

Evil parties do.

[Prak]

Related question which comes to mind as I work on this stuff: at what level is it appropriate for a character to gain immortality?

I mean, I guess it doesn't matter since lifespan is unlikely to come up in a game, but thematically, I guess?

[Kaelik]

Related question which comes to mind as I work on this stuff: at what level is it appropriate for a character to gain immortality?

I mean, I guess it doesn't matter since lifespan is unlikely to come up in a game, but thematically, I guess?

Does the immortality allow them to get age bonuses to mental stats without penalties to physical stats? If not, level 1. If so, it has to come up at the cost of significant class ability, which means not at level 1, because at that level they need to get the ability to actually attack.

Probably level 4. And seriously, at the cost of something else.

[codeGlaze]

Probably level 4. And seriously, at the cost of something else.

The character may never enjoy the taste of food again!

...the player is not allowed to eat ANYTHING while game is in session... and may only drink water.

[Kaelik]

Probably level 4. And seriously, at the cost of something else.

The character may never enjoy the taste of food again!

...the player is not allowed to eat ANYTHING while game is in session... and may only drink water.

I'm not sure what kind of joke that is supposed to be, but it wasn't funny. I hate you, you go on ignore.

[Chamomile]

+4 if it's a lovely damsel type. That said, adventuring parties very regularly rescue peasant damsels.

Evil parties do.

...But Good and Neutral parties don't?