So, since no one cared about my last review for Heroes of Shadow, I may as well review a book for an edition I've never played.
This deserves a bit of introduction. You all may have guessed that I'm a fan of necromancers. I also have a morbid fascination with 2e, despite never having played. So I was browsing the internet and found repeated references to this book as being the most awesomest thing ever.
So I read it.
And, by modern standards, this book is pretty terrible.
Introduction
So it starts with an italicized fluff paragraph. Get used to this, this will occur every other chapter. Right away the book opens with "the material in this book is for DMs only and not to be seen by players," It then explains that necromancers are overpowered, because - gasp - they can use zombies to disarm traps, and that makes the thief sad. I understand the thief was already a shitty and useless class in 2e, so, meh. I also understand fighters get free followers around the time the necromancer gets animate dead, so you can send in a squire with a 10-foot pole. But necromancer PCs are so OP, they shouldn't have the material in this book. The same section explains that you should fuck over your would-be necromancer PCs hard to keep a sense of mystery and adventure. Get used to this attitude, it's going to be a long book.
Chapter 1: Necromancers
Another italicized fluff paragraph.
Then the fun begins. The book explains that, hey, you know, if PCs have high ability scores higher, or even if they don't (because their archnemesis should be more powerful, right?) So it provides some ways of generating ability scores. Some of which are more powerful than what the PCs have, and some which are strange (17 str! 10 int! COCAINE FOR EVERYBODY!!!!)
So then it talks about NWPs for a bit, and presents new kits! Many of which aren't for PCs, but follow PC rules.
Archtypical Necromancer: You are an evil necromancer. You get 1-3 dark gifts (explained next chapter) which also come with a DM-determined self-fucking.
Anatomist: You have bonuses with knives (auto-specialize) and bonuses on your Heal NWP, which you must take. You can also perform an autopsy which can tell time of dead. You must cut up dead dudes once per month or lose your kit powers, but still are a specialist wizard. So this is essentially free minor shit for cutting up a dead dude, and you're a murder hobo, so why not get free shit?
Deathslayer: You hate undead. You get some bonuses when fighting a specific type of undead, but you must attack undead in preference to all other foes. You must attack all undead, so no raising for you.
Philosopher: get bonuses to know about necromancy, take a -30% chance to learn other schools. Umm...go fuck yourself.
Undead Master: You are a necromancer with access to the enchantment school, but you lose alteration and divination. They may command undead and fiends as a priest of their level. They're drawback is that you have to roleplay them as megalomaniacs.
So in other words, grab these kits, grab some kits from another book (there's a short section on these) and pimp your wizard. And tune in next time when we continue necromancer: the self-fucking!
OSSR: The Complete Book of Necromancers
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CapnTthePirateG
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OSSR: The Complete Book of Necromancers
OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I
Re: OSSR: The Complete Book of Necromancers
Your heroes of shadow review was really helpful for me. We started playing a 4e campaign when it was released before reading any of the rules etc. And I told my DM that I wanted to switch to a Necromancer when one was released. Your review told me not to bother with that book.CapnTthePirateG wrote:So, since no one cared about my last review for Heroes of Shadow, I may as well review a book for an edition I've never played.
[ . . . ]I also understand fighters get free followers around the time the necromancer gets animate dead, so you can send in a squire with a 10-foot pole.
And for the second quote, IIRC Fighters never gain free followers in AD&D. They attract them, but they still have to pay them.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
Oh, this should be good
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
NOTE: the DMG Reference books are meant for the DM to use as NPCs, and NOT the players to use like the PHB reference books.
that is why they were brown vs blue.
preemptively where the problem with PrCs comes from with players trying to use everything NOT intended for players.
that is why they were brown vs blue.
preemptively where the problem with PrCs comes from with players trying to use everything NOT intended for players.
Play the game, not the rules.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
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CapnTthePirateG
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Well, let's continue. We've got some NWPs in this chapter that I forgot to mention. Some are neat and cool, like talking to dead people and poisoning weapons. There are also some monster-id skills, namely undead and fiends. I'll leave them alone for now while I go to the next chapter:
Chapter 2: Dark Gifts
You know those things that were vaguely alluded to in the Archetypical Necromancer kit? Well, this is an entire chapter of random-ass powers you can slap on a villain to make him stronger, under the guise of "better roleplaying" and the usual crap about being more mysterious and this really being for the player's own good and so on. To be fair, these are only for major villains,
We then divulge into some crap about dual-classing. Suffice it to say the book claims fighter/necros are awesome (which I hioestly don't know), and then they seriously segue into psionics rules. Seriously. There's a table of wild talents for necromancers. They seriously advocate letting philosophers roll every level for a wild talent "in a high-psionics campaign."
I have no fucking clue.
So the book finally gets into a grab bag of powers. These include commanding undead, animating the dead by touch, free rings of wizardry (inherent to you, not as a ring), magic resistance, weapon immunity...in short a whole grab bag of powers to power up that special evil villain who in grand old-school style has bullshit powers your necromancer will never be able to learn. Or, if they do, they come with one DM-determined self-fucking drawback. What, you thought you could just be a dude in black robes with some skeletons? No, this book is gonna bone you hard.
They also relax the racial restrictions on necromancers - orcs, gnolls, bugbears, and so on can be necros. Drow can be necros, as can dragons and githyanki. Githyanki get random psionics to go with their necromancy.
Also, there are totally undead necromancers. Thanks, book, I never would have guessed.
Chapter 3 is entitled "The Price," and is about ways to fuck with your local necromancer.
Chapter 2: Dark Gifts
You know those things that were vaguely alluded to in the Archetypical Necromancer kit? Well, this is an entire chapter of random-ass powers you can slap on a villain to make him stronger, under the guise of "better roleplaying" and the usual crap about being more mysterious and this really being for the player's own good and so on. To be fair, these are only for major villains,
We then divulge into some crap about dual-classing. Suffice it to say the book claims fighter/necros are awesome (which I hioestly don't know), and then they seriously segue into psionics rules. Seriously. There's a table of wild talents for necromancers. They seriously advocate letting philosophers roll every level for a wild talent "in a high-psionics campaign."
I have no fucking clue.
So the book finally gets into a grab bag of powers. These include commanding undead, animating the dead by touch, free rings of wizardry (inherent to you, not as a ring), magic resistance, weapon immunity...in short a whole grab bag of powers to power up that special evil villain who in grand old-school style has bullshit powers your necromancer will never be able to learn. Or, if they do, they come with one DM-determined self-fucking drawback. What, you thought you could just be a dude in black robes with some skeletons? No, this book is gonna bone you hard.
They also relax the racial restrictions on necromancers - orcs, gnolls, bugbears, and so on can be necros. Drow can be necros, as can dragons and githyanki. Githyanki get random psionics to go with their necromancy.
Also, there are totally undead necromancers. Thanks, book, I never would have guessed.
Chapter 3 is entitled "The Price," and is about ways to fuck with your local necromancer.
OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I
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Ted the Flayer
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I got to play a grand total of 1 necromancer in my gaming career. And she died at level 4 because I caught the idiot ball that day. I thought it would be a good idea to use charnel touch against a mimic, because it totally wouldn't be able to dodge and I'd do automatic 1d8+1 damage every round.
I remembered after I did it that I brought a level 7 barbarian to negatives as a DM with an unadvanced mimic before...
Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.
Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.
They'd need to learn how to...CapnTthePirateG wrote:Also, there are totally undead necromancers. Thanks, book, I never would have guessed.
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)
...Control themselves
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
OH DEAR GOD KOUMEI
MY EYES.
MY EYES.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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CapnTthePirateG
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Ah, yes, my bad. Apologies, I've been a bit busy/procrastinating/w/e.
Chapter Three: The Price
In which you get fucked for having a black robe.
Anyhoo, the fluff piece is about some necromancer going insane.
There's a short paragraph about social stigma, Basically people will try to kill you for being a necromancer. I have no idea how the hell this is supposed to work in a traditional D&D setting with a 17th level dude or something.
"Yo we heard you can cast Wail of the Banshee. Get the fuck out of our town or my level one warrior team will come after you."
There's mention of bounty hunters and other guys trying to kill you, but you're a D&D character. People try to kill you all the time, how is this a drawback?
So those who practice black necromancy (a list of spells the book will define later) will suffer horrible DM-inflicted punishments. You can get a physical deformity, bodily affliction, mental illness, or unholy compulsion. Yes, we could reduce it to two categories. Then the book explains that you can force your players to keep making checks when they do bad things or suffer random diseases or madness. Now, to be fair, there's also a section about how you should get one of the Dark Gifts from Chapter 2, but I've never seen this kind of system work well. I've recently played in two campaigns with a homebrew taint system the player's didn't know about to make it more mysterious - you descended into darkness, you got powers or whatever. I hate those systems, mainly because you almost never get anything you want and (in this instance) the crap is forced on you.
Moving on, the book lays out a table of deformities which range from "laughter sounds evil" to "murders allies" (I shit you not). The final paragraph explains that this can counterbalance out Dark Gifts or simply punish players for delving into black necromancy (yes, they use the words punish players. Best DMing advice ever).
Chapter 4: The Dark Art
So after the fluff paragraph, we get a list of the dreaded spells of black necromancy. Remember, this list is not supposed to be made available to the players so the DM can punish them for using said spells and call it roleplaying. It then encourages players to debate the evilness of using said spells. Never mind that using the things explicitly invites the gods of evil to fuck with you, oh no.
In a shocking twist of events, many core spells are black necromancy, such as enervation, finger of death, and even chill touch. Animate dead is not. The book emphasizes the need to punish players for using these spells, because they're evil. It then talks a bit about white necromancy, which does not get fucked with. It consists mainly of faux-healing and hold undead.
Next time: Spells for wizards.
Chapter Three: The Price
In which you get fucked for having a black robe.
Anyhoo, the fluff piece is about some necromancer going insane.
There's a short paragraph about social stigma, Basically people will try to kill you for being a necromancer. I have no idea how the hell this is supposed to work in a traditional D&D setting with a 17th level dude or something.
"Yo we heard you can cast Wail of the Banshee. Get the fuck out of our town or my level one warrior team will come after you."
There's mention of bounty hunters and other guys trying to kill you, but you're a D&D character. People try to kill you all the time, how is this a drawback?
So those who practice black necromancy (a list of spells the book will define later) will suffer horrible DM-inflicted punishments. You can get a physical deformity, bodily affliction, mental illness, or unholy compulsion. Yes, we could reduce it to two categories. Then the book explains that you can force your players to keep making checks when they do bad things or suffer random diseases or madness. Now, to be fair, there's also a section about how you should get one of the Dark Gifts from Chapter 2, but I've never seen this kind of system work well. I've recently played in two campaigns with a homebrew taint system the player's didn't know about to make it more mysterious - you descended into darkness, you got powers or whatever. I hate those systems, mainly because you almost never get anything you want and (in this instance) the crap is forced on you.
Moving on, the book lays out a table of deformities which range from "laughter sounds evil" to "murders allies" (I shit you not). The final paragraph explains that this can counterbalance out Dark Gifts or simply punish players for delving into black necromancy (yes, they use the words punish players. Best DMing advice ever).
Chapter 4: The Dark Art
So after the fluff paragraph, we get a list of the dreaded spells of black necromancy. Remember, this list is not supposed to be made available to the players so the DM can punish them for using said spells and call it roleplaying. It then encourages players to debate the evilness of using said spells. Never mind that using the things explicitly invites the gods of evil to fuck with you, oh no.
In a shocking twist of events, many core spells are black necromancy, such as enervation, finger of death, and even chill touch. Animate dead is not. The book emphasizes the need to punish players for using these spells, because they're evil. It then talks a bit about white necromancy, which does not get fucked with. It consists mainly of faux-healing and hold undead.
Next time: Spells for wizards.
OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I
Wasn't Cure ___ Wounds originally Necromancy in AD&D? Or am I just thinking of Arcanum's White Necromancy and other old isometric AD&D-influenced PC games?
Awesome on redefining spells and telling you to punish players for daring to use them. At least BoVD introduced its own new TOO EVIL FOR USE spells rather than going "Oh by the way, that spell you've cast all this time? It's evil, fuck you."
And for what it's worth, while most taint type systems suck arse, it's a common thing in fantasy for dark spooky powers to have a terrible price like that. You can hardly fault them for wanting to emulate that, but the execution...
Awesome on redefining spells and telling you to punish players for daring to use them. At least BoVD introduced its own new TOO EVIL FOR USE spells rather than going "Oh by the way, that spell you've cast all this time? It's evil, fuck you."
And for what it's worth, while most taint type systems suck arse, it's a common thing in fantasy for dark spooky powers to have a terrible price like that. You can hardly fault them for wanting to emulate that, but the execution...
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Desdan_Mervolam
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Is there a way to have "Forbidden Arts" that offer short-term benefits but screw you over in the long term? Such things are all over the fantasy genre, after all.
I suppose the first thing to do would be making "the long term" a relative thing so that people can't mentally calculate game length to decide if they want to sell their soul because in five years when the contract runs out the game will be long since over.
I suppose the first thing to do would be making "the long term" a relative thing so that people can't mentally calculate game length to decide if they want to sell their soul because in five years when the contract runs out the game will be long since over.
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
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RobbyPants
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So, do any of these punishments in the price work out for the necromancer? I saw you mention that they can pick a dark gift, or something.
If these things are a net negative, it begs the question why any wizard would choose Necromancy as their path to Ultimate True Power, when being a Conjurer does a better job. I hate when people make up rules like these to insert their own belief system and shit all over genre-appropriate fantasy.
If these things are a net negative, it begs the question why any wizard would choose Necromancy as their path to Ultimate True Power, when being a Conjurer does a better job. I hate when people make up rules like these to insert their own belief system and shit all over genre-appropriate fantasy.
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Username17
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Actually, BoVD introduces a variant rule on page 77 where they declare that the following spells are [Evil]:Koumei wrote: Awesome on redefining spells and telling you to punish players for daring to use them. At least BoVD introduced its own new TOO EVIL FOR USE spells rather than going "Oh by the way, that spell you've cast all this time? It's evil, fuck you."
- Contagion
- Deathwatch
- Desecrate
- Doom
- Trap the Soul
-Username17
Deathwatch already had the [evil] tag, though. At least in 3.5, that is. Why? Who the fuck knows.
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RobbyPants
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Huh. I totally missed Desdan_Mervolam's nearly identical post right above mine.
"Oh, 'Doom'. Sounds creepy. Hmmm. Deathwatch. Yikes!"
So you know who to target and kill? Even that doesn't make sense, but I can't think of what was going through their heads. Also, why is Doom on there (makes you shaken), but Cause Fear and Fear aren't? Did they just look at the spell names, or something?Meikle641 wrote:Deathwatch already had the [evil] tag, though. At least in 3.5, that is. Why? Who the fuck knows.
"Oh, 'Doom'. Sounds creepy. Hmmm. Deathwatch. Yikes!"
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Username17
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Deathwatch has the [Evil] tag in 3.5 because it was errataed in Book of Vile Darkness. In 3e, it does not have the [Evil] tag. And BoVD is a 3e book.Meikle641 wrote:Deathwatch already had the [evil] tag, though. At least in 3.5, that is. Why? Who the fuck knows.
Similarly, in 3.5 Consecrate is able to de-sanctify an alter, because in BoVD they made Desecrate an [Evil] spell. Which meant that Good clerics weren't able to cast it. Which meant that Good clerics couldn't desanctify evil temples. Which meant that they had to add that capability to a spell that Good clerics could cast.
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CapnTthePirateG
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It basically comes down to how well your DM likes you. You can walk away with the ability to be immune to nonmagical weapons, animate dead by touch, or rebuking undead with the caveat that your laugh scares small children.RobbyPants wrote:So, do any of these punishments in the price work out for the necromancer? I saw you mention that they can pick a dark gift, or something.
If these things are a net negative, it begs the question why any wizard would choose Necromancy as their path to Ultimate True Power, when being a Conjurer does a better job. I hate when people make up rules like these to insert their own belief system and shit all over genre-appropriate fantasy.
Or the DM makes you murder the party in their sleep because you cast finger of death.
Spell review is still upcoming.
OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I
I can imagine a non-bullshit argument that says using deathwatch is all about seeing everyone around you as pieces of meat instead of as people, and so using it often is very, very bad for your moral grounding. Basically, it's like hanging out in an especially gruesome morgue, by choice, all the time.
I don't think that's an argument that fits into dnd very well, but it is coherent.
I don't think that's an argument that fits into dnd very well, but it is coherent.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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OgreBattle
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What if it was called baywatch?
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
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Ted the Flayer
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