Libris Mortis: A Look back. (3E)

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Ted the Flayer
Knight-Baron
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:24 pm

Libris Mortis: A Look back. (3E)

Post by Ted the Flayer »

In the OSSR request thread, they said the cutoff for Old-School is 10 years ago. Libris Mortis was published 9 years ago :p.

After the success of Draconomicon, WotC decided to expand with other popular monster books. This was the second in the series. In many ways, this was inferior to the previous book. For starters, remember the epic artwork that Draco had that wrapped around to the spine and back cover? Yeah, WotC decided to put a stupid frame on the back, and the artwork is less impressive. The cover art is a standard necromancer raising undead. YAWN. Let's dive into this book.

Chapter 1: All About Undead

The first page artwork blows. I don't know who C. Lukacs is, but I don't want to look at his artwork. It just looks off to me. Remember the blue dragon and the scholar? Yeah, this isn't as badass.

First, the book describes the various ways one might become undead. Pretty bog-standard, although the sidebar on haunting presences is worth noting (specifically, that and the rules involving large numbers of undead creating mass turn resistance). Key stuff for necromancers, although not obvious.

Next is describing feeding habits. It seems like it would be reasonable (after all, by D&D rules an undead doesn't HAVE to feed at all regardless of type), but then it loses points by saying the rules are only for boning undead PCs. (What is this madness? Undead as PCs? Well relax, they're shitty. More on that later...)

It goes on to describe how undead breed (a repeat of info in the monster manual), and goes into nearly insultingly simple advice for increasing an undead's power. Did you know that undead can gain levels in fighter to get stronger? Lame. I question anyone that says undead should take levels in barbarian, as you'd only rage for three rounds. Even if you're immune to the fatigue afterwards.

There's a long section about an undead's senses and how to appeal to its sense of compassion to get it to spare your life (no, really. You get a +4 bonus to diplomacy if you do so). There's a glaring mistake in a caption to a piece of artwork. (there is no such thing as "a millennia". Millennia is plural of millenium. It's either "a millennium" or just "millenia")

There's some notes on undead society, which says they have lots or none at all. Very helpful. Then we get to some deities which I would like to say no one gives three fucks about, but one of them is in the PHB, another has been a mainstay in D&D since the beginning, another was mentioned but not named in previous books, and a fourth has some really good domains for an undead-creating cleric (although I'm sure no one cares about Afflux other than that). Then there's Evening glory, which has either the charm, chaos and Good domains, or the Charm, Magic, and Protection domains depending if you go by the chart or the text. Evening Glory is the goddess of eternal love, which also includes becoming undead so you can live and love forever. I have to admit, this is a more morally complex philosophy than what I expected from D&D, gold star. I'm dead fucking serious.

We now get to advice on how to fight undead. There's some remarkably self-aware advice in the turning section where it admits that undead hit dice rise faster than the cleric will gain levels. There's a warning that there's now undead with positive energy resistance (because fuck you that's why, although after seeing the least skilled min-maxer in my group tear through undead with his rogue/bard using a sunblade, inquisitor bracers and UMD'd wands of gravestrike maybe I can see why a DM would want to do that). It has advice on special weapons that goes well above and beyond what most DMs would call metagaming (not that I care when I dm, but most DMs who aren't me suck). There's a few lists of spells that are handy in healing ability damage, energy drain, preventing death attacks, and so forth. Handy to have in one place, actually.

Next post is Chapter 2: Character Options.
Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.
Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.
ishy
Duke
Posts: 2404
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:59 pm

Post by ishy »

Your review made me look up the WotC articles about Libris Mortis. I'll spoiler this, since it doesn't have much to do with your review, but it is so stupid I feel it should still be shared.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:10 Reasons Why Your Character Wants You to Get Libris Mortis

9. Rules for Knowledge (Religion): Ever wish those ranks in Knowledge (religion) were good for more than identifying temples and boosting turning ability?
Libris Mortis offers rules for using the Knowledge (religion) skill to recognize undead creatures and remember their special powers. Now your character can tell a ghost from a wraith and narrow down what should and shouldn't be used against each. Let's face it -- you may know the powers of a wraith, but your character may not. This new rule offers a legitimate way of bridging the player character knowledge gap.
What the fuckity fuck?
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
User avatar
Ted the Flayer
Knight-Baron
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:24 pm

Post by Ted the Flayer »

Chapter 2: Character Options

There is another Lukacs art of Regdar getting torn apart by undead rats: True story: Regdar was forced upon the D&D artists because WotC officials wanted there to be a handsome, white human iconic, and Tordek was neither human nor white enough. So the game designers and artists conspired to kill off Regdar whenever they thought they could sneak it in. I wonder if that's what got the picture of Tordek in the dragons mouth but still fighting removed from the 3.0 book, because that picture was bad-ass. Also see the cover of Heroes of horror, or the exasperated look Mialee has when Regdar is addressing her in the art for the alternate crafting rules in Unearthed Arcana 3E.

The chapter starts out with feats.

Baleful Moan: Gives you an ability that makes your enemies shaken. As a prerequisite, it has a feat that also makes a target shaken. Both durations are measured in minutes. If it wasn't for the fact that this feat requires you to be an incorporeal undead, I'd say it was a nice little feat.

Contagious Paralysis: If something touches someone you paralyzed with an attack (so no stacking this to hold person), they have to save versus paralysis. Sounds like it could be hilarious in the right hands.

Corpsecrafter, et. al: For undead creation. This was reviewed much better elsewhere, so I'm not going over it again. Basically, they all make your undead better in some way, but some of them aren't that good.

Corrupted Wildshape: I have been told by many people that the idea of an undead druid is "retarded". I disagree, and have had a couple druid liches as antagonists in my games. Anyway, this lets an undead druid continue to wildshape. It says you don't gain the animal's constitution score, which might not actually contradict any rules depending on what polymorph errata the DM is using at the time.

Daunting Presence: It lets you make something shaken for a minute. It's not quite as good as what a dread necromancer does, but the fact it lasts for a minute means the juggle combo is broken.

Death Master: Adds a fear effect to your critical hit. You can only take it if you're undead. I'm not sure I care.

Divine Accuracy: You set a turning attempt on fire, which gives you and all your friends the ability to re-roll missed attacks and failed miss chance rolls once every time you miss. That's quite good, especially if you're a paladin or you prestiged out of cleric and can't turn undead worth shit anymore. I like to give these feats to NPCs because PCs tend to not be undead anyway.

Empower Ability Damage: If you are undead and deal ability damage, it increases a numeric die roll by 50%.

Empower Turning: If this was 2e or below, this feat would be the cat's pajamas. Since we are using 3e numbers and you don't actually fight large numbers of mooks anymore, I argue that this feat actually sucks ass now.

Endure Sunlight: You can ignore the negative effects of sunlight for a number of rouns equal to your charisma modifier. It's a good fuck you ability to players.

Enduring Life: You can ignore negative levels for a couple minutes, and get +4 to save to remove levels. I don't like negative levels, mostly because for years I had a player that would record every single hp roll he made so he could argue he'd have more HP after taking his 5 damage. Maybe more sane groups don't have to deal with that.

Energizing Spell: I think this has to be a typo. It requires you to be nonevil, rebuke undead, but infuses your magic with positive energy that deals more damage to undead, less to the living. Then it says having the ability to rebuke undead makes you lose this feat. Yeah, gotta be a type.

Enervating Spell: Like energizing spell, but it damages living things more.

Eviscerator: This feat is like death master, except it affects all the target's allies. Yeah, still not taking it, and there's a long line of shitty feats behind it.

Fell Animate: For three extra spell levels, this will turn things you kill into zombies. Fun for the whole family!

Fell Drain: For two more spell levels, you bestow one negative level to the target. Wow-ee! Let me get my wallet! I would think that piling them onto magic missiles and scorching rays at high level to apply multiple negative levels might make this somewhat worth it, but I have a feeling there's some rule that prevents that.

Fell Frighten: For two more spell levels, your spells make something shaken. Wow, I thought Fell Drain was the cocksuckingest feat in the book...

Fell Weaken: For one extra level, your spells give -4 strength in addition to damage. I wonder, are there any 0 level spells that affect a huge area or number of targets? Maybe 1st level? Because I can actually see use for this...


Ghost Scarred: Also known as "I ain't scared of no ghosts!". Situationally kind of useful, but still underwhelming.

Ghostly Grasp: Lets ghosts use material items. Is there a demand for that? Material armor keeps you from flying through solid objects.

Graft flesh: Oh no, this feat again. Lets you graft freak flesh to your hot, firm young body. Seems useful if you can find a way to get it for free. Undead grafts coming up later.

Heighten Turning: A bit more useful than empower turning, this helps you turn one really big undead monster. Except it adds to your turning roll, not your turning level. Which means undead who have more than your level +3 hit dice basically can't be turned without other shenanigans (and if you're a high level cleric that's still turning things effectively, you probably have enough crap on you that level +3 isn't going to be a noticeable difference).

Improved Energy Drain: Gives you +1 to rolls when you drain energy. Looks shitty, but that +1? Untyped. Chickens are really cheap, and if you're a vampire you can get rats for free.

Improved Paralysis: The save DC for your paralysis attack improves by +4. Requires Ability focus: Paralysis, but doesn't over-write it. Which means your paralysis attack is at +6.

Improved Toughness: +1 hp per hit die. I've had undead monsters take this feat, as undead monsters tend to have a lot of hit dice.

Improved Turn Resistance: You add +4 to your existing turn resistance. You know, because turn resistance wasn't invented because turning is a broken mechanic and a monster's challenge is only slightly related to its hit dice.

Lasting Life: You set a couple feats on fire, and it lets you purge negative levels with a will save and can try once a round until it works. That's good, but you aren't going to be setting half your total feats ever on fire to get it. Try to snag it through other, more devious ways.

Life Drain: Adds some bullshit vampiric healing to your energy drain attacks that you won't care about ever.

Lifebond: You become an undead pimp daddy, you take this feat once per living minion and you get a stackable turn resistance and saving through bonus. If someone kills one of your stable of hos, you get a -2 to your saving throw. Honestly, I think the ability is neat but I would just write that as part of the challenge that said undead mastermind uses handwavium to transfer some of the vitality of his living minions, but killing them weakens him due to asspullium.

Lifesense: This feat is worded so constructs can take it too, but you can see living things as if they gave off light. I like this feat. It gives you a significant ability, it is interesting from a flavor standpoint, the only problem is it requires you to not have a constitution score and no PC will put up with that shit, ever. Still a good NPC feat in my opinion.

Mother Cyst: This gives you some new spells that you have to have a cyst to cast. I will review them in the spell chapter, as I don't remember what they do right now. I remember infecting a PC with one and it freaked him right the hell out (I am often asked to not run undead encounters because I tend to do that).

Necromantic Presence/Might These are two feats. the first gives turn resistance to undead around you, the second gives a bonus to attack. I won't be taking this feat, but you're goddamn right all my lieutenants in my undead army will have these two feats.

Necrotic Reserve: Like diehard, but only for undead that have eaten recently. My experience is this buys the undead one more round and I doubt that it's worth it.

Necropotent: It lets you sacrifice life for new spells. Wait, wrong WotC game. It's a fighter feat. It gives you an additional +4 damage when you use a weapon you're specialized with against undead. It sucks.

Positive Energy Resistance: It gives you resistance 10 against positive energy attacks. And yes, you have to be undead, so no taking this feat so you can go nail chicks living in the positive energy plane (I'm assuming there's hot monster chicks that want to eat/sex you there because D&D).

Profane Lifeleech: I find that at lower levels, this is a really good feat to give to evil clerics. It lets you burn two rebuke attempts to deal 1d6 damage to all living things around you, and it the heals you the total amount of life lost. At high levels, 4d6 healing is chump change.

Profance vigor: You spend a rebuke attempt to heal a target 2 hp per cleric level. This is a waste of a feat.

Quicken Manifestation: You can pop into the material plane as a free action. You can also manifest into a wall if you don't want people whaling on you the second you pop into reality. Pass.

Quicken turning: Your rebuke/turn attacks are now a free action, although it says you can't do it more than once per round. I think this feat would be awesome to get in a way that doesn't involve you taking it as one of your 6 feats.

Requiem: Lets you use bardic music abilities to hinder/help undead things. It's not a bad feat at all, actually. Great for the herald of your unholy army of the night.

Sacred Vengeance: Spend a turning attempt to have an undead bane weapon for one round. Undead are all over the fucking place in D&D, which might sound like a reason to take the feat, but it isn't. An undead bane weapon is something that most characters should keep in their golf bags.

Sacred Vitality: Set a turn attempt on fire to make yourself immune to energy drain, ability damage, and ability drain for one minute. It's not a bad feat for a paladin to take.

Spell Drain: If you successfully energy drain someone that prepares spells, you snag the spell they lose when drained. If it wasn't random, I'd say it's a good way for a living necromancer to spread spells to her minions. I can see some unintended uses of this feat still.

Spurn death's touch: Set a turning attempt on fire to heal some ability damage or negative levels, that have to be specifically caused by undead. Not a bad feat really.

Stitched flesh Familiar: Turns your familiar into an undead patchwork version of itself. It grants you the ability to control 4 more hit dice of undead with both rebuking and with animate dead (8 total if you have both), but that's not a big deal. Spellstitching your familiar is a pretty cool bonus (one time I sent my players on an adventure to capture a spellstitched undead familiar, but not kill it. Fun times). I believe the Spellstitched template is most recent in Complete Arcane, and it gives an undead creature spell-like abilities based on wisdom, among other bonuses.

Tomb-Tainted Soul, et al: There's a series of feats that lets your character act like more of an undead creature. The first in the line causes you to take damage from positive energy and heal from negative energy. If you're a dread necromancer, you take this feat so you can touch yourself. The rest of the chain has limited use and I don't recommend taking them,

Undead Leadership: Remember Draconic Leadership? Well, this feat sucks even more than that does! First off, undead have the same ridiculous LA's that dragons do, except undead hit dice are worse (bad BaB, fewer skill points, only one good save). Furthermore, Draconic Leadership reduced the LA of the dragon by 3. Undead leadership gives you +2 to leadership score, which an astute reader will determine is not nearly as good. Although it does let you lead around a small army of useless skeletons (well, you can always use the couple dozen 1 and 2 hd skeletons to trigger traps and such). Still, I consider the feat of limited utility.

Unquenchable Flame of Life: With an epic name like that, it should be a whopper of a feat? Wait, nope, it's another +2 to something feat. It substitutes favored enemy bonus to saves instead of +2 if you have favored enemy, which you don't care if you do.

Vampire Hunter: This feat wins super hard any time you fight vampires and doesn't when you aren't. You can tell if a vampire is within 30 feet of you with a move action (which is better than most divination spells), and it makes you immune to the dominate ability of vampires. What's the cost for making an item that grants a feat again? Because this would make a pretty good set of goggles.

A sorry lot, that.

Next in the chapter is undead in the party. This is another place where the author shows a surprisingly high level of awareness of how things work in 3.5, and then grabs the idiot bar by the end of the section. It describes that undead possess a lot of positive qualities, but accurately describes why undead don't make good PC's (lack of hit points, death at 0 rather than -10, being annihilated or being made a bitch by NPC clerics), as well as pointing out that walking around town as a ghoul or wight is not a good idea. Then it says that they need a level adjustment because they're too powerful. Here is where I have diarrhea.

It has a whole list of bullshit undead with ECLs higher than Tommy Chong. You know Mohrgs? Yeah, a Mohrg out of the monster manual is equivalent to a 20th level wizard according to this. The party wizard probably has a mohrg butler making zombies full-time for him that he doesn't take on adventures because a 14 hit die undead can't survive in the environment 20th level character find themselves in. They're all stupid, but I'm picking what I perceive as the biggest shit here. It's like shit took a shit.

There's a section on undead mounts, which despite being not quite as good as riding a living mount is surprisingly free of mechanics that kick you in the nuts. Surprising, usually WotC's policy is to bust down the door screaming "STOP HAVING FUN YOU GUYS!". But there's one option that's kind of funny. Blackguards can attract an undead horse or pony as a mount. You have to have enough levels in paladin to have an undead companion to prevent your mount from being turned. That's hilarious to me, having the Blackguard Count Repugsive ride up to you, and turning his ass-rest and having it run off with him.

There's a section on Monster classes for various undead, in case your players want to self-flagellate starting at level 1. I won't elaborate because reading these classes gives you cancer.

Thus ends the chapter. I will pick this up next time with Chapter 3.
Last edited by Ted the Flayer on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.
Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.
Surgo
Duke
Posts: 1924
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Surgo »

Honestly, this book was just horrible. Especially considering how it wasn't much later that we got the Tome of Necromancy, which had good writing and a pair of balls to go with. I don't recall there being anything desirable in an actual game from this book.

Actually, I take that back. It had stuff like Fell Drain, which was honestly a better way of handling metamagic that any of the metamagic from the SRD was. Score one for the acceptable idea train.
Last edited by Surgo on Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
fectin
Prince
Posts: 3760
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:54 am

Post by fectin »

Really? It was definitely splat, but it was one of my favorite splats.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
Slade
Knight
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:23 pm

Post by Slade »

Master of Shrouds Prc was pretty sweet.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13877
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

Surgo: I like to think the PG to Necromancers/Tome of Necromancy were created specifically in response to this book - that this resulted in the Tomes as a sort of catalyst. Possibly all the actual Tomes were "Your actual splat book is shit and here is how to do it better".

As for the feats, it definitely has some good choices for uses of "Bonus Feat: you needn't meet the requirements". Which is mostly Rogues, but I had a hilarious incident involving a Paragon Polar Bear (no it could not challenge flying foes, that's why it was in a big igloo, and structures made of snow are completely unbrea- oh hang on) with Baleful Moan. It's right up there with Eye of Disjunction, Hurricane Wings and Gape of the Serpent: hilarious when snagged using Bonus Feats and you have no good explanation for how you're doing this shit.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
Avoraciopoctules
Overlord
Posts: 8624
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:48 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Post by Avoraciopoctules »

The feats in Libris Mortis can actually be used for some pretty cool stuff. They make adventurer ghosts able to interact with the dungeon. They let you write a mid-level trade in spells where energy-draining outsiders trade potions of restoration + other stuff for borrowing spells from casters. Lifesight is really cool when you think about giving it to flying creatures or undead people with access to telescopes.
User avatar
Prak
Serious Badass
Posts: 17345
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Prak »

Ok, so I have to ask a couple questions here, because the Den understanding that untyped bonuses stack, even from the same source, or that rogues don't have to meet prerquisites for bonus feats is part of the resistance to Tome for many. Where does it say untyped bonuses are the exception to the "same source doesn't stack" clause or that rogues do not have meet prereqs for bonus feats?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
User avatar
Ted the Flayer
Knight-Baron
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:24 pm

Post by Ted the Flayer »

The "bonus feat" thing is arguable. As far as bonus stacking, it's on page 305 in the player's handbook under "bonus" in the glossary, and I'm assuming other places as well. Bonuses without any type stack.

EDIT: Specifically, dodge bonuses and untyped bonuses always stack.
Last edited by Ted the Flayer on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.
Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.
User avatar
Maxus
Overlord
Posts: 7645
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Maxus »

Because there's a two-parter on the rogues.

The definition of bonus feat is found for monsters, where it says creatures may have bonus feats they don't actually meet the feat requirements for, but they can still use them because it's a bonus feat.

In absolutely every other case, a character class mentions that the character has to meet the requirements for a bonus feat to select it. The only place it doesn't, is on the description of the rogue's special ability at level 10, where one of the options is to pick up a bonus feat, without the 'must meet the requirements' condition.

It's -probably- an egregious oversight, but it's by dint of definitions and wording, actually a game rule.
Last edited by Maxus on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Whatever
Prince
Posts: 2549
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:05 am

Post by Whatever »

Bonus feats:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#feats
Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm
Special Abilities
On attaining 10th level, and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.
...
Feat
A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.
Stacking bonuses:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking
Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13877
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

There is a "same source" disclaimer though, where you get to argue about whether draining 10 chickens counts as different sources (ten separate chickens) or the same source (that feat).

And the bonus feat thing is that it says in the Monster Manual (under Bonus Feats) you don't need to meet the requirements for any Bonus Feats, unless the text specifically states you do. Note that this is the only time it's specifically called out either way - the PHB doesn't have its own section on Bonus Feats, except specifically for classes that receive them - and in most of those cases it specifies you need to meet the requirements, but the Rogue has no such clause.

Now I'm not sure if they meant that, or if they forgot to include it for two editions in a row (okay, one and a half) and all eratta ever. Because I wouldn't put the incompetence of the second possibility past them - it's well within their lack of abilities. But it does make the first possibility seem more likely, particularly contrasted with the other classes always stating it.

Yes, it gets muddied by the fact that some other classes grant specific Bonus Feats and say you don't have to meet the requirements, but they don't actually have to state that - that's the default, much like the Fighter doesn't have a special thing saying "If this is your first level, you don't have to roll for HP, you just get 10 + Con mod".
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
Darth Rabbitt
Overlord
Posts: 8870
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:31 pm
Location: In "In The Trenches," mostly.
Contact:

Post by Darth Rabbitt »

Fuck, Koumei and Maxus and Whatever beat me to it.

Ah well, probably better to come from savvier Denners than I.
Last edited by Darth Rabbitt on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pseudo Stupidity wrote:This Applebees fucking sucks, much like all Applebees. I wanted to go to Femboy Hooters (communism).
Surgo
Duke
Posts: 1924
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Surgo »

Slade wrote:Master of Shrouds Prc was pretty sweet.
I'm pretty sure that was a 3.0 class that was merely 3.5ified in Libris Mortis.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13877
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

As per the Necromancer's Handbook, Master of Shrouds is kind of ass if you take it the way the game assumes you will (Cleric 6 - enjoying a useless level 7 instead of 4th level spells, and getting your first spookies at level 8). Whereas if you go Cleric 2/Anything-With-Good-Will 1* then you spend levels one and two being happy as a Cleric, three and four being kind of grumpy (at level four even the Sorcerer has a spell level over you), and at level five you start busting out the spookies and it's pretty awesome. Until you hit the end of the class and find your class features lacking in late game and wishing you had those two caster levels back.

But maybe your DM will be nice and either extend the class or let your character level advance your spook-summoning to grant you bigger and better ghosts.

3.0 had a few prestige classes where you could sneak in early, too. There was an Ooze one where you could qualify at level 3 and then you got a 10d6 Line of Acid several levels before 10th.

Anyway, if we just assume everyone who takes MoS does it the multiclass way and gets their early access, it is really awesome. Thematically, too, not just "my enemies can't hit the stuff I summon, so they die." I literally cannot remember any of the other PrCls in that book - there are a bunch that might be from LM or might be from HoH and vaguely involve being undead, turning into an undead, or "being spooky".

*Recommended options have included Hexblade, Dread Necro and... I think there was one other suggestion that worked out pretty well for it too.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
fectin
Prince
Posts: 3760
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:54 am

Post by fectin »

Pale Master and True Necromancer. Pale Master is a kick in the junk, followed by a decent class. True Necromancer is so bad that the Necromancers' Handbook devoted two separate sections to how terrible it is.
Everything else is forgettable.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Surgo wrote:
Slade wrote:Master of Shrouds Prc was pretty sweet.
I'm pretty sure that was a 3.0 class that was merely 3.5ified in Libris Mortis.
Yep. Defenders of the Faith, page 46. It's not a direct reprint though. The Defenders of the Faith version has skill requirements and cannot be taken until Level 8. It has weird spellcasting requirements, but every Cleric and Druid qualifies for them by 7th level regardless. The negative energy channeling is the only "real" requirement other than the skill ranks. The DotF Master of Shrouds still lets you pull some Shadows and Allips around, but since you are medium high level you don't actually care. The class is primarily notable because it puts you on the good BAB track for some reason, gives you extra turning for free, and adds a pile of spells to your spell list that include ghoul touch and fucking magic jar. You also lose zero caster levels, making it an absolute must-have for any turning cleric.

When they reprinted it in Libris Mortis they dropped the skill requirements hugely, but made it cost a caster level to have. So instead of being a thing that a 7th level Cleric "might as well" go into, it became completely worthless for a straight Cleric and only of any relevance to a 3rd level multiclass character who was willing to chuck their spellcasting down the stairs in order to run around pwning low level monsters with summoned incorporeal undead. Most of the text is copypasta, but the minor changes to the class make it work totally different.

-Username17
User avatar
Vebyast
Knight-Baron
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 am

Post by Vebyast »

Ted the Flayer wrote:Contagious Paralysis: If something touches someone you paralyzed with an attack (so no stacking this to hold person), they have to save versus paralysis. Sounds like it could be hilarious in the right hands.
It is. I played a wizard that decided to stay on par with the rest of the party by dumping four levels into being a lich instead of winning the game. He took this feat, along with a few options to boost the DC of his paralyzing touch, and then ran around flinging handfuls of paralyzed insects at people like he was some kind of demented undead pixie.
Last edited by Vebyast on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:There are two things you can learn from the Gaming Den:
1) Good design practices.
2) How to be a zookeeper for hyper-intelligent shit-flinging apes.
User avatar
Avoraciopoctules
Overlord
Posts: 8624
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:48 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Cool. I'll have to try that sometime.

I really like all of the unexpectedly useful ways Libris Mortis feats can end being utilized. It's a little sad almost none of these tricks were intended by the designers.
K
King
Posts: 6487
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by K »

Tomb-tainted Soul is the core of the Uttercold Assault Necromancer build before someone wrote up a PrC with the same name.

So you run around with Lord of the Uttercold and TTS and Energy Substitution (Cold), get some immunity to cold, and then drop evocations on yourself that heal you for half their damage while hitting enemies.

It's not a world-breaking combo, but it is fun to run around healing obscene amounts of damage each turn by blasting yourself.
User avatar
OgreBattle
King
Posts: 6820
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am

Post by OgreBattle »

Ted the Flayer wrote: Vampire Hunter: This feat wins super hard any time you fight vampires and doesn't when you aren't. You can tell if a vampire is within 30 feet of you with a move action (which is better than most divination spells), and it makes you immune to the dominate ability of vampires. What's the cost for making an item that grants a feat again? Because this would make a pretty good set of goggles.
Is this a reference to the fake last boss battle in Symphony of the Night
Image
Korwin
Duke
Posts: 2055
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:49 am
Location: Linz / Austria

Post by Korwin »

Ted the Flayer wrote: Mother Cyst: This gives you some new spells that you have to have a cyst to cast. I will review them in the spell chapter, as I don't remember what they do right now. I remember infecting a PC with one and it freaked him right the hell out (I am often asked to not run undead encounters because I tend to do that).
If you where evil and an spellcaster, that Feat is an must have.
(Permanent Enslave Monster not blocked by Mind Blank)
User avatar
RobbyPants
King
Posts: 5201
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:11 pm

Re: Libris Mortis: A Look back. (3E)

Post by RobbyPants »

Ted the Flayer wrote: The first page artwork blows. I don't know who C. Lukacs is, but I don't want to look at his artwork. It just looks off to me.
I agree. The only other two 3E D&D artists that produce art I hate as much are Crabapple and T. Baxa (although, occasionally, I like Baxa's work).

Ted the Flayer wrote:Then there's Evening glory, which has either the charm, chaos and Good domains, or the Charm, Magic, and Protection domains depending if you go by the chart or the text. Evening Glory is the goddess of eternal love, which also includes becoming undead so you can live and love forever. I have to admit, this is a more morally complex philosophy than what I expected from D&D, gold star. I'm dead fucking serious.
Yeah, I had a lot of fun in a subplot using a cult that worshiped her. The player running the ranger was having a hard time figuring out if he should kill them on account of being abominations or let them be because they weren't hurting anyone and were keeping to themselves. Part of the problem was that he'd never really hammered his PC's stance on undead out, so he wasn't sure which path to take.
User avatar
Ted the Flayer
Knight-Baron
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:24 pm

Post by Ted the Flayer »

It's been too long since my last installment, time to pick up the pace.

Chapter 3: Prestige Classes

We start off the chapter of another charming Lukacs piece. This one chronicles the heroics of Brokeneck the Cleric and his Real Doll golem with the arm in the middle of her chest fighting some skeletons. Oi vey...

Death's Chosen: The ho class. No seriously, one of the requirements is you have to serve an undead creature with the undead pimp daddy feat. 3 levels, and honestly I can't describe the features without falling asleep. This was a cool idea, and the designer fucked it up.

Dirgsinger: I want to make a joke about how no one wants to be an emo bard, but let's just be honest and admit this is probably more popular than we want to admit or acknowledge. The class has a couple of rather lackluster abilities (save DC is tied to your ranks in perform +10, so don't expect anything too stellar), but the ability to raise a dead body for an hour that retains all class feature is kind of cool. Too bad you give up all your spellcasting to get there, I would imagine even a bard could do more with 5 spellcasting levels than what this class gives.

Master of Radiance: This would be a pretty decent cleric prestige class if you find a way to get Knowledge: Nature on your class list. You lose out on one spellcaster level, but get the ability to glow for a minute (or three by 5th level). While glowing, undead get -2 to attack near you, and you get the ability to fire lasers (firse searing light, then sunbeam) for free as long as your aura lasts. Can be neat since a cleric gives up one spellcasting level, but a druid gives up 5 levels of wildshaping to do this (although the idea of a laser-shooting raptor is pretty awesome and might be worth it if you care at all for panache). Also gives Turn Undead, so the druid can add divine feats to their laser shooting raptor. Maybe not a "power play", but I don't think anyone can say the idea isn't fucking awesome.

Master of Shrouds: You all raved about this class, I barely remember it. So let's go back to the past, and play the shitty PrCs that suck a- wait, wrong angry nerd. Looking at the class, I am not really seeing the charm. You either take it at 6th level and lose one spellcasting level, or you can multiclass with something that gives good will saves and take it starting level 4. There's some good there (being able to summon a lot of spectres sounds like it could be frighteningly effective), and I always like extra turning for free and taking divine feats. It's got some uses, but really I'd rather just take the spellcasting levels.

Pale Master: This class is pretty cool, but it has one completely fatal flaw: The first level of the class LITERALLY grants no class features. NONE. I shit you not. The rest of the levels of this class are pretty good, you get some free uses of Animate Dead, you get an undead hand to jerk off with (No seriously, that's what it says, you give in to "necrophiliac urges", and it's your hand because you're a wizard. NEEEERRRRD!) You get an undead cohort for free (which is lame, and I am also assuming the author expects me to have sex with that too), and get infinite free zombies as long as they aren't more than one size bigger than you (enlarge person is a must for this class). If you can get over the fact that level 1 is the worse level of any class ever made, then have at it.

Sacred Purifier: I have a feeling I'm going to hate this class, because I don't even remember it. [reads the class] YEP.

You lose a spellcaster level to get the sun domain power another time a day, and to have an undead bane weapon (again, one should be in your golfbag). The cap ability (spend 2 turning attempts to deal 10d6 damage to every undead around you) is actually pretty good, but it's not worth slogging through 4 shitty levels to get there.

True Necromancer: The artwork creeps me out because I dated a chick that almost looked exactly like that. And she had a lot of halloween store props around her house all year. She knew how to party, though.

Oh right, I'm supposed to be talking about class abilities. And my fucking god, this sucks. As pointed out before (but bearing repeating) if you're a fighter, and you take leadership to grab a cleric, and the cleric takes leadership to grab a wizard, then you're bringing more magic than a tru necromancer. Fuck this class. No wait, don't fuck this class. Don't let your friends fuck this class. It's unfuckworthy.

That is all the player prestige classes. Now we work into undead prestige classes. And they're weird. Let's dive in, shall we?

Ephermal Exemplar: For incorporeal undead. By the end, you're getting +3 to your AC and turn resistance, your spawn gets +4 dexterity, and that weird Ghostly Grasp feat that I am not fond of. It's mostly better than advancing by hit dice, and since youre using touch attacks anyway probably better than taking fighter levels too.

Lurking Terror: For the sneaky petes. You get Darkvision, +3 to the DCs of your racial abilities, and HiPS. Kind of lame, actually. HiPS is one of the more overrated abilities that people bitch about (when I use creatures with that ability, the people who are on the RNG almost always see them anyway, and the players off the RNG can't. That sounds more like a mechanical problem than a problem with the ability).

Master vampire: This class is a bit better. It grants 2/3 spellcasting (which is lame), but it grants you more spawn, makes your spawn more agile and stronger, and it allows you to give one of your spawn +6 to str and dex. Plus it gives you turn resistance based on the number of spawn you have near you. It's workable for a villain.

Tomb warden: I'd say that if you were a villain that doesn't leave their lair, this is the class to take. Its the only undead PrC that grants goot BaB instead of shit BaB, gives you immunity to turning, blindsense, and a self buff but the drawback is all that only works in your tomb. I'd say it was better than fighter levels.

That's it for 3. Tune in later for Chapter 4: Spells. I'm going to need some liquid courage to even attempt it, so no more tonight.
Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.
Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.
Post Reply