Spellcasting Rolls

[echoVanguard]

In Nemesis Age, we try to have different dice rolls for different types of actions. Attacking and defending with weapons is a d20+modifiers, while using skills is a d100. Damage rolls are always d6s, while Mass Combat rolls are 5d20+modifiers (a 1-100 shifted bell curve). However, we haven't come up with a mechanic we like for a "spellcasting roll" - we've tried d6-dicepool with hits, and we're eventually leaning towards something with d4s or d8s (as those are feeling neglected) but there's a general lack of consensus about what the spellcasting roll should do. For context, most spells in Nemesis Age are classified as "Attacks", and the ones that aren't (like Levitation) are still resolved that way (an attack against a static DC).

• Does it need to do anything at all? Maybe whether or not you cast a spell should be determined by whether or not you have the spell option on your character sheet and pay the resource cost, and your opponent just defends against a fixed strength level. This is how 3.x targeted spells work.
• Should you still have to hit just like a ranged attacker? Maybe casting the spell itself doesn't require a roll, but you still have to actually hit your opponent with the effect. This is how 3.x ranged touch spells work.
• Should you have to successfully cast the spell itself, with a chance for failure? This can make the act of actually casting a spell more interesting, but your failure chance needs to be small or you're just going to make spellcasting a trap option. This is mostly how SR4 spellcasting works.
• Should the success of your spell be assured, but you still have to roll to determine how hard you win? This was basically how our original concept worked, but some members of the team felt that it needed to have more potential for unexpected results (botches that cause your spell to go hilariously wrong). It also has a problem being conceptually crammed into the same space as damage rolls, particularly if you have to roll separately.

Personally, I'm in favor of something that involves rolling a moderate-sized handful of dice (3-5) as it feels generally mystical in a "rolling the bones" sort of way. What, in your opinion, is the best way to resolve spellcasting attempts?

echo

[hogarth]

Personally, I'm in favor of something that involves rolling a moderate-sized handful of dice (3-5) as it feels generally mystical in a "rolling the bones" sort of way.

I like how your preference is not one of the possible choices in the poll that you created (which goes from one roll to a big fistful of dice).

My two cents: For me, rolling dice is overrated. One roll is plenty, a la Mutants & Masterminds, for example. Whether a bad roll means your spell fizzled or you aimed poorly or the subject resisted is mostly a matter of flavour, IMO.

[ishy]

I like different spells having different balance points. So that I can choose between spells that always go off without a hitch and more powerful spells that incur more risks.

But I don't know enough about your game to say which mechanic I'd like the most for your game.
To give some examples: If you have a few spells a day, I don't really want failure mechanics.
If a single action has low impact I accept a lot more spell failure than if a single action determines an encounter.

[echoVanguard]

But I don't know enough about your game to say which mechanic I'd like the most for your game.
To give some examples: If you have a few spells a day, I don't really want failure mechanics.
If a single action has low impact I accept a lot more spell failure than if a single action determines an encounter.

Single actions generally have a moderate-to-large impact, roughly analogous to 2E/3.x D&D. Resources use a per-adventure model (not per-day), and come from a fixed pool with variable costs (low-level spells/abilities consume 1 FP, while higher-level ones consume 2-4). You get 4-9 at first level, +1 per additional level - so, for example, a typical level 6 character has about 13 FP, and can cast spells that cost 0, 1, or 2 FP per shot - but FP also gets used for other things besides spellcasting (like taking extra turns or activating non-spell powers), so it's not a great comparison.

echo

[Grek]

Magic that is equal in function to a non-magical attack should use the same rolls. Magic that that a more complicated effect should either have significantly more dice (it the effect is one that could reasonably be simulated using dice rolls) or significantly less (if magic is more of a "narrate and effect" sort of hand-wavey thing).

[Kaelik]

The fundamental problem with your question and answers is that it assumes that all magic should work the same.

The thing where magic can have effects that target different defenses, including abilities that just have an effect without giving opposition any % chance of it failing is one thing that makes magic more tactically interesting than non magical figures.

The solution is not to make magical character less interesting by reducing their options, but to make your stupid fucking fighter have actual abilities that allow them to be at least as interesting.

[Wrathzog]

Resources use a per-adventure model (not per-day), and come from a fixed pool with variable costs (low-level spells/abilities consume 1 FP, while higher-level ones consume 2-4). You get 4-9 at first level, +1 per additional level - so, for example, a typical level 6 character has about 13 FP, and can cast spells that cost 0, 1, or 2 FP per shot - but FP also gets used for other things besides spellcasting (like taking extra turns or activating non-spell powers), so it's not a great comparison.echo

So, spells are a relatively rare event then? If that's the case, then I vote for making them as Showy and Ridiculous as possible.
Mountains of Dice
Risk of Catastrophic Failure
Final Destination.

[Dean]

I think magic should not always cast successfully but that using "big fistfulls of dice" is always a bad idea. In my house games I have used an at-will spellcasting variant for years that makes every spellcaster have to roll to cast a given spell. It makes things more fun and interesting and I've never gone back.

[echoVanguard]

I think magic should not always cast successfully but that using "big fistfulls of dice" is always a bad idea. In my house games I have used an at-will spellcasting variant for years that makes every spellcaster have to roll to cast a given spell. It makes things more fun and interesting and I've never gone back.

If you don't like "big fistfuls of dice" but still require a roll for spellcasting, what type of roll do you use? I know games like Dungeon Crawl Classics use something similar to this mechanic but have increasing penalties to the roll for each spell you cast after the first.

echo

[Soda]

Do what you're already thinking. Use 2 or 3 dice so it has a nice curve.

[Dean]

If you don't like "big fistfuls of dice" but still require a roll for spellcasting, what type of roll do you use?

In my games any time anyone wants to cast a spell they roll a D20 and add their primary casting stat's modifier against a DC of 10+Spell level.

So a 10th level Wizard with Intelligence 20 has a +5 modifier to his "Spell Roll". When he tries to cast a spell he picks that spell, sets his DC, and makes his spell roll as a free action.

1st level Spell, DC 11 (a 6+ for the above 10th level Wizard)
2nd level spell, DC 12 (7+)
3rd level spell, DC 13 (8+)
4th level spell, DC 14 (9+)
5th level spell, DC 15 (10+)
etc

If he fails at his spell check he cannot cast a Wizard spell that turn. This means that every so often the perfect spell for the situation just can't be cast this round. It also makes casting higher level spells a risk VS reward proposition. As a bonus however casting is at will, with no spells per day limit. So in a given round your less powerful but you get to keep being a Wizard all day without resorting to timeless planes or rope tricks between each dungeon room. It's done wonders for my games. I could type out the system in full if you were interested as obviously there's a lot of things that needed to be considered to make it work smoothly.

[sabs]

Can the Wizard get bonuses by doing extended spell casting? or using certain components?

[Dean]

Yeah, anything with a minute casting time or more is considered an auto-success. But that's just saving time as the person could make 20 tries if they wanted.

[Juton]

Dungeon Crawl Classics has a simple roll for spellcasting mechanic. It really slows things down, since the tables are so large and each spell is used so infrequently no one can memorize them. It could work if a character only ever got a dozen or less spells, something like Shadowrun for instance.

You can also go with a generic spell result table to make each spellcasting seem different. The problem with that is that it will feel generic because the same results are applied to all spells.

If you want each spell cast to feel different the idea to lift is the random consequences table. If you have consequences that interact with a spell being cast you get the effect of having variable outcomes that feel variable while only using one chart.

[...You Lost Me]

dean I really like that idea and if you typed out how you run it I would love you forever.

What do casters resort to when they can't shoot spells?

[Dean]

Spellcasters have to make spellcasting rolls anytime they want to cast a spell. A spellcasting roll is 1d20+their primary casting stat's modifier. This is against a DC of 10+Spell level. So the Spellcaster declares his spell of choice and rolls against a DC from 11-19. If he succeeds he casts the spell as normal and if he fails he cannot cast a spell from a spell list with his standard action this round. He may still attempt to cast quickened or immediate action spells by making spell rolls for them as well.
Casting is at will, and there are no more spells per day, which requires a few modifications. A spell with a duration higher than insantaneous may only have one running duration at a time. A second casting of the same spell removes the first spell from it's current target. So if you have Fly, you can fly or one other person can fly. Same with things like Hold Person, so you have to cycle through debuffs as they succeed. The exception to this rule is spells with permanent duration which can have as many copies of themselves running at once as you wish.
Since spells per day no longer exists everyone in effect becomes a spontaneous caster. Any class without a spells known list uses their spells per day list as their spells known list and then picks spells. This means Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Archivists no longer know every spell and everyone operates more or less like a Sorceror which is good for the game in general. Any effect that uses or requires the sacrifice of a spell slot or a spell per day slot requires you to sacrifice the ability to use one spell of the appropriate level for that day. So if you use Arcane Strike to sacrifice a 4th level spell for +4 to-hit and +4d4 damage you would pick a 4th level spell you know (say Solid Fog) and you can no longer cast Solid Fog today.
Any spell whose casting time is not measured in rounds does not require a spell roll and succeeds automatically.

That's pretty much the deal. Most characters rely on wands or staves for standard action fail-outs or some plundered spell-like abilities (which require no rolls). It's a really great system honestly. There's not much I would reccomend more highly to try out in your games, it's definitely increased the fun I've had.

I'm also typing this at 4:45am, so if this is a little hazy I'll try to clear it up when I wake up. : )

[violence in the media]

Spellcasters have to make spellcasting rolls anytime they want to cast a spell. A spellcasting roll is 1d20+their primary casting stat's modifier. This is against a DC of 10+Spell level. So the Spellcaster declares his spell of choice and rolls against a DC from 11-19. If he succeeds he casts the spell as normal and if he fails he cannot cast a spell from a spell list with his standard action this round. He may still attempt to cast quickened or immediate action spells by making spell rolls for them as well.
Casting is at will, and there are no more spells per day, which requires a few modifications. A spell with a duration higher than insantaneous may only have one running duration at a time. A second casting of the same spell removes the first spell from it's current target. So if you have Fly, you can fly or one other person can fly. Same with things like Hold Person, so you have to cycle through debuffs as they succeed. The exception to this rule is spells with permanent duration which can have as many copies of themselves running at once as you wish.
Since spells per day no longer exists everyone in effect becomes a spontaneous caster. Any class without a spells known list uses their spells per day list as their spells known list and then picks spells. This means Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Archivists no longer know every spell and everyone operates more or less like a Sorceror which is good for the game in general. Any effect that uses or requires the sacrifice of a spell slot or a spell per day slot requires you to sacrifice the ability to use one spell of the appropriate level for that day. So if you use Arcane Strike to sacrifice a 4th level spell for +4 to-hit and +4d4 damage you would pick a 4th level spell you know (say Solid Fog) and you can no longer cast Solid Fog today.
Any spell whose casting time is not measured in rounds does not require a spell roll and succeeds automatically.

That's pretty much the deal. Most characters rely on wands or staves for standard action fail-outs or some plundered spell-like abilities (which require no rolls). It's a really great system honestly. There's not much I would reccomend more highly to try out in your games, it's definitely increased the fun I've had.

I'm also typing this at 4:45am, so if this is a little hazy I'll try to clear it up when I wake up. : )

A couple of questions:

1. Do casters get to pick extra spells to cast based on high stats? So would a wizard with 4 1st level spells per day gain the +1 for sufficient INT?

2. Are the spells known by non-sorcerers the only spells known ever, or can those casters expand their spells known and pick among them?

3. Does the sorcerer use its actual "spells known" list or the "spells per day" list to figure out how many different spells they can cast at will?

4. Can you change out your known spells in any way, or are you stuck with whatever spell decisions you made 3 levels ago?

[Dean]

1: Yes

2: The only way to expand your spells known list is to use a feat or other effect which directly adds to your spells known list. Extra Spell or Expanded Knowledge or things like that.

3: Good question. You can basically pick the better of your spells known and spells per day list as your NEW Spells known list. So Sorcerors can use their Spells Per day list as a new, slightly better, Spells Known list. While Wizards have a few less spells known they get higher level spells faster. Yes this is basically meant to be a direct buff to the Sorceror and no one else.

4: My games have always had free sheet rewrites. I don't really care if people change spell selections and feat choices as they figure out things that aren't working. If your games do not have that option I would say that spell choices should be able to be reworked with every level up, but I really don't see a problem with letting people play the character they want today.

[Judging__Eagle]

I prefer:

"Spells should sometimes cast successfully, and can have a scale of effect based on the success of the rolled results, with a single attack roll if necessary just like a ranged weapon."

Like Horror After Sundown. Some spells are automatic, others cost some shramana to even start, others will work or not based on how many successes the caster generates.

[Mistborn]

I'd like to note that the more random chance you involve in combat that harder it is to make strategic choices. In addition having out comes give the impression of being highly random it tends to make players be less invested in the game.

So yeah having a chance for a spell to randomly not work is terrible and you are terrible for thinking it's a good idea.

[Dean]

I'd like to note that the more random chance you involve in combat that harder it is to make strategic choices. In addition having out comes give the impression of being highly random it tends to make players be less invested in the game. So yeah having a chance for a spell to randomly not work is terrible and you are terrible for thinking it's a good idea.

Everything you've just said is madness. No that's wrong. Most of what you've just said is madness. First of all it's not random chance it's a predetermined and knowable chance. Like attack rolls against known AC's or saving throws against known DC's. Which by the way already exist as a part of most spells. At no point does saying "You will have somewhere between a 90 and 50 percent chance to cast a spell depending on how high a level of spell you choose to cast in a simple risk vs reward metric" turn the game into Chutes and Ladders.
Saying that attacks always hit would not make the game better, saying that spells don't always work does not make the game worse. Creating an element of randomness in Spellcasting helps to bridge the gap between top tier classes and moderately powerful classes (the only gap I'm interested in closing because D&D does not work at the Fighter/Ranger/Monk power level). It also allows me to use at-will spellcasting instead of Vancian without ripping the game in twain and that is something that has gotten uniformly positive reviews out of every playgroup I've brought it too.
I honestly feel it's exactly like the Tome's statement that full attacks should have no more than a -5 on every non-primary attack. It's a big change, but once you make it you realize it was the only sane choice all along. Tome full attacks and spellcasting rolls are my two favorite houserules, hand's down.

[SlyJohnny]

The way Shadowrun does rolling for spells is interesting and fun because you make tactical choices about how much "oomph" you put into a given spell, and you can pretty always get a spell to work if you're aiming it at something that can't resist much and casting at low Force, unless you're already on the verge of a coma or you've deliberately made a crappy mage.

The way AD&D did psionics power manifestion is stupid and not fun, because having a flat, non-variable percentile chance at your magic or psionics fizzling feels ineffectual and stupid in a way that swinging a sword at an armored monster and failing to do damage does not. Failure chance should be something you can affect, rather than a "roll a dice to see if you get to attempt to contribute this round".

I guess I don't care too much about Paranoia or games with unreliable wild talents, but if my character is a spellcaster and spellcasting is What I Do, I should be able to cast spells at shit and have it work, provided I make and have made good choices.

[tussock]

When you're using different dice, use different dice. Spellcasting will feel more "magical" if it uses a different rolling system to the "non-magical" stuff.

So attacks and other contests are d20+mods vs d20+mods, or whatever.
Damage is accumulating d6's vs max hp.
Skills are d100 vs skill+mods, or whatever.
Spells can be the next-most favorite system, which is dice pools against a static TN with a die type that you have a fair number of lying around (usually d6's, maybe something else).

So more betterer spells need more successes, or have further hoops to jump. Counter-magic can reduce successes, meta-magic or components can add them. Net success can be the number of d6 damage for fireballs, or number of levels of opponents now sleeping. More complex spells can also require attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks, or any other part of the system (like however you avoid falling in a pit trap, skill saves, ability checks, whatever).

And your dice pool can refresh a small amount per round, or a large amount per combat, or a huge amount per day, or some combination thereof. Three pools, or more. Sacrifice health for more dice with some spell or another. All sorts of tricks. Go all unlimited mana and build up a catastrophy buffer when you run out of dice in a boss fight, or want to summon demons or make wishes (so wish doesn't screw you directly, but casting really big spells like wish totally makes the world come apart at the seams around you).

And ceremonial spells can add dice to your pool for extra members, or big crowds, or whatever. All sorts of options.