Drunken Review: Scion

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Username17
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Drunken Review: Scion

Post by Username17 »

Scion: Hero: The Drunkening

Image

So we've been discussing Scion and I have some time off and a hankering for quaffing booze, so let's combine those things and drink heavily while reviewing Scion: Hero.

First the backstory: Scion came out in 2007 after White Wolf had committed itself to its disastrous New World of Darkness business plan, gone bankrupt, and sold its bankrupt ass to Icelanders. It's essentially the first new line produced under Icelandic oversight (the last new game line produced under the old management was Exalted 2nd edition, which might be why they went bankrupt - zing!). Scion is a rush job. It's also a complete mess. It has nine credited authors, twelve credited designers, and only one editor (he is also credited as a designer, author, and playtester). It has more designers than it has playtesters, and some of the designers credited their wives as playtesters.

The Intro Fic

Wait, we're doing a chapter review of the intro fic? What the fuck?

The book begins with a 38 page story. It's about twenty three thousand words, which makes it technically a Novella by itself. And when I say the book "begins" with it, I mean that it literally doesn't fucking put the table of contents before this fucking thing. It goes: Novella, then Credits Page, then Table of Contents, then Chapter 1. I think it's fairly clear that this novella was basically the impetus for writing the entire game in the first place.

And there is some fairly cool imagery in here. The son of Thor is using a revolver whose "hammer" is a tiny piece of Mjolnir. There's a trippy sequence where he sees his dead grandfather surrounded by ravens having had his eyes plucked out. Just as the story is clearly the impetus for writing the book, the author clearly had some cool scenes in their mind driving them to write the story. But that's all there is: the author isn't very good at the humdrum details of writing a story where the events hang together in a narrative. Also, they are really fucking terrible at writing dialog.

Projects with seventeen credited distinct people working as designers and/or authors tend to morph severely while being worked on, and that's obviously what happened here as well. The story is some guy's American Gods fanfic that got out of control. But it's also very simply about Norse mythology running into the modern era through their descendants. You have have nuThor running into nuLoki, fighting a Frost Giant who is trying to wake the Rimtursar, and a bunch of Dwarves. But... Scion isn't actually about those things. It's about groups of descendants of gods from several pantheons fighting it out with the servants of titans.

So really, the story isn't actually about Scion at all. Of all the supernatural elements in the story, there are only two actual "Scions", they don't form a super group, and there are no fucking Titan servants at all. By the time the game had gelled into something you could generously say was "about" something, it had deviated so much from the fanfic it was based on that the story no longer had a place in the book. What to do? How about 'clumsily edit in a couple of infodump lists of other creatures that one of the sixteen other contributors insisted on adding?'
“Don’t forget to tell him about the others as well,” he said. With barely a pause, he looked at Eric and said, “Aside from such creatures as the dwarves, there are others lurking about as well. Centaurs, kitsune, lindwurms…” A low caw from Hugin broke Munin’s train of thought. “Ahem, yes. Such creatures were created similarly to the Gods long ago, but they are neither divine nor titanspawn, nor entirely mortal like human beings. They are simply what they are.”
Perfect!

But it's not just just the infodumps that were obviously clumsily added post hoc that are terrible. The infodumps that were in the original document were also extremely bad. As alluded to earlier, the author(s) of this piece have shitty dialog. Several times we are subjected to the literary device of having two people tell the point of view protagonist something through the expedient of dropping hints to the reader while arguing about whose turn it is to clue in the hero about various setting conceits. This is terrible. I know 38 pages is a big ass space to fill, but that's still no excuse to have 12 consecutive lines of characters interrupting the exposition by saying "No, I insist, after you." and shit. That doesn't happen like once or twice, it's a running theme of useless shit.

Lest you wonder if perhaps Scion wasn't shovelware, consider the following: Scion is over two hundred thousand words and was released in April of 2007 after being greenlit by CCP. CCP are the Icelandic videogame company that bought Whitewolf in November of 2006. Even if they greenlit Scion right away, the whole book was written playtested, and edited in just five months. The higher level book "Demigod" is another more than two hundred thousand word tome of horror, and it came out in September of 2007 - just five months later. And the even higher level book "God" came out in January of 2008. And you guessed it: that's over two hundred thousand words as well. This entire game is more words than Atlas Shrugged, and it was cobbled together in about 13 or 14 months.

And that is why we're talking about the intro fic. Because raiding the fanfic of the contributors for more wordcount to shovel out was seriously a major if not the major design guideline of this stupid fucking project.

Introduction

Emphasizing that this book was conceptualized and written by people meeting up at Starbucks and jumbling their drafts and ideas together in an awful hurry, the Introduction sort of fails to really explain what the shitfuck. The basic idea is that if gods fight each other directly they get boned by the "chains of fate". What the shitfuck is not explained as such, but it's really just one step off from saying "The gods had a meeting and decided it would probably be better for everyone if they called Earth a truce zone and agreed to just sire a bunch of kids and fuck with each other only by harrassing each others' kids with monsters". Which actually would have been fine.

A lesser version of the chains of fate is something called "fatebinding", which is supposed to be the reason that player characters keep up the masquerade, but the introduction badly fails to sell you on this at all. Apparently if you become more famous, then you get massively more powerful, and also you get a big posse of friends and allies who you run into randomly at opportune moments. And this is supposed to be why you don't want to be famous. Seriously.

This section is basically an abortion. It's a White Wolf product, so they needed a masquerade in place so that they could keep up the "it's the real world, but secretly there's magic" thing they got going. But someone badly failed their Craft RPG roll here. We're being told that the reason for the masquerade is that without it, it's inevitable that we'll meet a bunch of recurring NPCs and also that we'll become extremely powerful. The part where any of that is bad seems to have been "someone else's job to write".

So the story is simple: the Gods left the Earth alone, but the Titans escaped and/or are escaping or something, so the Gods snuck around on Earth making a bunch of bastard human babies so that they could grow up and fight the monsters that the Titans unleash. But this being a rush job with seventeen contributors and little editorial oversight. So this simple Sentai story is mucked up with a completely irrelevant "all myths are true" subplot where there are also hundreds upon hundreds of various magical beasts and races of magic people and stuff that are involved in the story tangentially if at all.

Several of the design decisions here are things I don't think are good ideas at all. It's a White Wolf product, so you have a lot of relatively similar names for things that are basically "powers", but different in various ways. The big thing I think is a stupid fucking idea is the idea that player characters be hugely dependent on specific items, called "Birthrights". According to the introduction, if your Birthrights get taken away, you lose access to your other powers called "Boons". But there are also powers that are called "Knacks", still other powers called "Fate", and another set called "magic" which is apparently another word for the fate powers, but can also be run through boons. It's kind of a mess actually. You might hope that it would be sorted out when you look at the actual character generation and power lists, but spoiler: it isn't.

While there is no discipline in magical races at all, there's an initial discipline on the number of worlds you have to deal with. There's an Overworld where the gods chill out, the mortal world (called "The World"), and an Underworld. Unfortunately, they shit on that immediately by having "The Underworld" be shattered into an unknown number of sub-worlds that aren't connected to each other. So really, there's a very large number of worlds and it's impossible to keep all this shit straight. The underworld run by Giltane is different from the underworld run by Erlik is different from the underworld run by Baron Samedi is different from an arbitrarily large number of other bullshit underworlds run by various other death gods you can't think of off the top of your head and even another arbitrarily large number of other underworlds that aren't connected to any god at all. It's basically just a mess.

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Post by squirrelloid »

Given the conceits of the game, is it ironic if i keep thinking 'why god why' when reading this review and pondering some of the decisions made by the designers?
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Post by Red_Rob »

I remember reading the intro fiction and thinking it was a fairly good read. It was a fairly standard "kid discovers he has awesome powers due to special parentage, is introduced to a magical world existing beneath the real world" kind of deal, but it was pretty well written and had some nice call outs to mythology. But that is pretty specifically a one-protagonist story that doesn't translate well to a party setup. In Harry Potter you didn't find out that Ron and Hermione were also orphans with mysterious parents because that would have been lame. Giving everyone the same weird special schtick means it isn't weird or special any more, it's just normal.
Simplified Tome Armor.

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Post by Niles »

I suspect (but I'm not going to download a copy of this a dozen odd WW corebooks to check) that part of the reason for having so many credited designers is that they handed out design credits (but not actual money) to people who made earlier Storyteller games that this game "built on".

From what I've heard this thing is mostly one guy's baby, the lead developer of Exalted when Scroll of the Monk came out I think.
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Re: Drunken Review: Scion

Post by Koumei »

FrankTrollman wrote:in 2007 after White Wolf had committed itself to its disastrous New World of Darkness business plan, gone bankrupt, and sold its bankrupt ass to Icelanders.
This is actually the cause of Iceland's financial problems.
But someone badly failed their Craft RPG roll here.
Well of course they did - they're using WW rules, and you can botch with those - oh snap!
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Re: Drunken Review: Scion

Post by name_here »

FrankTrollman wrote: A lesser version of the chains of fate is something called "fatebinding", which is supposed to be the reason that player characters keep up the masquerade, but the introduction badly fails to sell you on this at all. Apparently if you become more famous, then you get massively more powerful, and also you get a big posse of friends and allies who you run into randomly at opportune moments. And this is supposed to be why you don't want to be famous. Seriously.
Wait, wait, wait, the penalty for Masquerade Breach is becoming an anime protagonist? And yet players are expected to uphold it? What the fuck?

Did they hire 17 authors just so no one could be sure who came up with that idea?
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Post by Slade »

Red_Rob wrote:I remember reading the intro fiction and thinking it was a fairly good read. It was a fairly standard "kid discovers he has awesome powers due to special parentage, is introduced to a magical world existing beneath the real world" kind of deal, but it was pretty well written and had some nice call outs to mythology. But that is pretty specifically a one-protagonist story that doesn't translate well to a party setup. In Harry Potter you didn't find out that Ron and Hermione were also orphans with mysterious parents because that would have been lame. Giving everyone the same weird special schtick means it isn't weird or special any more, it's just normal.
What about Lightning Thief with Percy Jackson or The Lost Hero with Jason?
The main characters are Demi-gods and a satyr in the first book (Percy's dad was Poseidon). Jason's mom was Hera.
Basically Scion.

But it (Lightning Thief) actually a decent book: the movie was sadly horrible because they ripped out important plot people.
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

I never understood why Fatebinding was bad, really. The price of being a superhero is having to be a superhero?

Maybe you'll get tired of superheroing, but you can't stop superheroing? Maybe that's why superheroes become dicks?
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Post by Username17 »

name here wrote:Wait, wait, wait, the penalty for Masquerade Breach is becoming an anime protagonist? And yet players are expected to uphold it? What the fuck?
Yeah. It's also implied that the gods left Earth because this happened to them even more. It would have been better to just say "The Gods only slink around on Earth for short periods of time to knock up chicks for (no reason)".

Chapter One: Pantheon

This is the first "real" chapter, and it does not start well. The first thing they do is have a confusing meandering rant about how "pantheon" literally means "all the gods", so it could be expected to include all the gods in the setting, but that it is also used to mean all the gods from a specific culture. So they just sort of punt and say they are going to use the word both ways. I suspect because they had nine credited authors and this was considered easier than having the one editor (who was also an author and a designer) go through this entire fucking book and rework all the sentences that use the term to use it in a consistent way.

The next thing they attempt to do, and also fail at, is to set up the framing for what gods they include in the book. They happen to include six groups of gods, taken from 6 cultures: Aztec, Egyptian, Greek, Japanese, Norse, and Voodoo. So for people keeping track at home, that's 3 European, 2 North American, and one Japanese. @FirstWorldProblems. But then they tried to pull a weird rant about how those gods were the only ones that were definitely not dead or something. It's very weird to me that the Hindu gods (who I remind you have seven hundred and fifty million worshipers today) aren't discussed, but in any case the framing is all fucked. They could have just said that those were the gods that they happened to be covering in this book. By saying that it was uncertain whether the other tribes of gods were around or not, they profoundly limited the ability of Vishnu or Inti or Yama to be written into things later on.

The game is about you being a Sentai Team of deific bastards who fight monsters of the week sent by the Titans, who are bad. Nonetheless, there is a half-hearted attempt to play up the angle where the gods themselves are also fighting and that the players might be called upon to take sides between them. But since I genuinely don't know what the gods even have or want, this whole bit seems like a throwaway. One of the authors at least remembered that Bellerophon and Chimera were children of Posseidon and Echidna respectively, but since the supposed agenda for today is "Destroy the World? [Yes/No]" and the gods specifically don't really do anything except try to make up for their bad and distant parenting with periodic expensive gifts, it's hard to take seriously the notion that the Scions are going to want to fight a proxy war between Hera and Thoth.

Now we go through the six pantheons in the game's pantheon. These are in no order at all that I can see. The format is that each pantheon gets six or seven pages, most of which are taken up with descriptions of the various gods in each pantheon of the game's pantheon, and then there are two pages taken up with a sample character who is a Scion from one of the gods.

Each pantheon of the game's pantheon has like seven to twelve gods in it, and each god is given a lot of weird little toggles that affect your character in various ways if they are your father. The most prominent of this is that they have lists of skills and powers that you get to take at a discount. These lists are not only extremely unbalanced in that you might get a discount on a flavor ability like "art" or an all-important combat ability like "thrown" (in this game, thrown weapons are the best weapons, so getting a discount on that would be very good, while getting a discount on firearms would be kind of shitty). But this isn't even an emergent property of the fact that not all skills or Boons are created equal, some gods simply give longer lists of discounts than other gods. There's enough overlap between some gods that you could quite often find places where one god did pretty much everything that you could benefit from a different god plus chips and a bottle of coke. Most of the powers are reasonably self explanatory (Epic Strength makes it cheaper to get super strong), but some of the powers are actually exclusive (meaning that you aren't getting a discount, you're being allowed to buy them at all), and each pantheon in the game's pantheon has a power that all of their gods allow which is not in English and is therefore not self explanatory in the slightest. So if your patron is a Japanese god, you have access to "Tsukumo-Gami" and if your patron is an Aztec god, you have access to "Itztli". None of these are given even a short explanation in this chapter, leaving the casual reader severely confused for over a hundred pages (seriously: Heku is first introduced in a list on page 49 and not given any explanation until page 151 - they don't even tell you that it's not available to the children of Non-Egyptian gods until page 138).

Finally, each god writeup ends with a list of that god's rivals. These are a severely complicated web of intrigue. Thoth hates Hermes, Hermes hates Huitzilopochtli, Huitzilopochtli hates Frigg, Frigg hates Thoth. All in all, each god has about a half dozen rivals, but Loki seriously has twelve. Explanations for these conflicts are not particularly forthcoming. To which I mean that Frigg is rivals with Freya, Huitzilopochtli, Ogoun, Poseidon,
Susano-o, and Thoth, and fucking none of that has any explanation at all in this entire book. Rivals about what? Since when? Only one of those gods is even from the same mythology set, and their rivalry isn't even reciprocal. I don't even know what that means! Later on in the book when it talks about writing new pantheons into the pantheon, it assures you that it is absolutely essential that each new god should be given a half dozen rivalries, but at no time does it actually tell you what these rivalries do or mean. It isn't explained in a hundred pages, it isn't explained in two hundred pages, it just isn't fucking explained at all. I don't even know if you're allowed to have groups with a Scion of Isis and a Scion of Quetzalcoátl in it at the same time. That seems like it might be a fairly important point that would come up fairly often (what with the extremely complex and not-entirely-reciprocal hate web and large number of rivalries compared to the number of available gods), but they don't even mention it.

Each pantheon of gods in the pantheon has their own strategy for handling the end-of-the-world-problem. None of them are very good, which might be intentional and might be shitty writing. I can't even tell. The Egyptian gods are super conservative and want to return things to the way they were, the Japanese gods are super utopian and trying to figure out a perfect solution, and so on. I don't know how this is supposed to tie into anything, because no matter what the gods nominally have as a master plan, you still wander from town to town fighting monsters of the week. Because that is what the game is actually about. There is no attempt that I can see to tie these godly grand designs into the actual missions that the player characters are actually going on.

It should be noted that for a game about being the descendants of gods, Osiris has something of a problem.
Image

Also there are various virginal goddesses and walking skeletons and stuff. Now you'd think there would be lots of ways to handle that. I mean, we're talking about gods here, so you'd think they could just fall on women as a golden rain and get them pregnant that way. Or maybe possess one or both of a pair of lovers or just curse someone to have special Terry McGinnis sperm. Or whatever. But all of that would be too easy and make too much sense, so this book instead posits some sort of supernatural adoption plan. See, gods can formally disinherit their byblows if they haven't actually met them yet. Which, seeing as how they haven't met them yet, I have no idea why they would feel the need to do that. Once they do this, then various other dickless gods can swoop in and transform those disinherited children into their own adopted children - a fact which makes the random disinheriting declaration make even less sense. Dickless gods also can't just adopt random dudes because you have to have the divine spark from birth even though it doesn't actually do anything until your patron shows up to awaken your powers. The divine spark, by the way, is called "Ichor" in this game, a word which was probably a placeholder suggested as a joke that just never got updated in the mad dash to finish this fucking thing.

It should be noted of course, that the six pregenerated characters that this chapter takes 12 pages showing you are actually extremely terrible. This won't become apparent for hundreds of pages, because of course the numbers and words on those character sheets are not explained in the slightest and this book has no quickstart section or rules summary.

Next up: the character creation rules! Which of course are also given before the slightest hint about what the game mechanics actually are, but that's for the next section.

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Post by Parthenon »

Egypt is now in Europe? Since when?

This sounds to me like someone planned out what the book would cover, gave out the different parts to lots of writers, and then the different writers never spoke to each other at all while writing. Then, the editor grabbed everything that was halfway finished and shoved it together. Unfortunately some of the writers didn't finish so large sections are missing.
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Post by Username17 »

Chapter 2: Hero
Scion wrote:So, you dig Scion, and you’re ready to invest your creativity in unique legendary heroes who suit your tastes a little better than the pregenerated ones we’ve provided. Well, you’re in luck, because that’s what this chapter is all about: building a hero.
That is the beginning of the chapter. It is not a good sign, because so far they've given us a big list of NPCs who aren't going to be the heroes we're playing, and basically nothing about the world or the action. We're 97 pages into the book and we have had descriptions of 57 gods (none of whom will be our player characters), 7 Scions (six of whom have had shitty character sheets written up for them), 7 other magical beings with speaking rolls and zero descriptions of the Titan Spawn that we're supposed to be fighting. I'm not really sure how I can "dig" Scion or not at this point, at this point we haven't even been shown what we're supposed to be fighting. I think that if the setup is "You fight X", that showing or at least describing X is probably mandatory for anyone to have even a tenuous grasp on what the setup even is.

Character creation follows a five step, five page plan. Step one is "write a three word character concept", while step four is "spend five points to buy things from the Birthrights list, 10 points to spend things from the Boons list or get Epic Attributes and then select Knacks for each point of Epic Attribute you buy, then select four virtues and set their value to 1 and then spend five points raising whichever of the virtues you have that you want to increase. Remember to take into account the starting character limits, which are dependent on how many Legend points you purchase in step five." So obviously, not all the steps are created equal.

This section doesn't actually have a chart with the things you can buy or even like a list of what the attributes are and do - that all comes later. You can get a glimmer of an idea of what the stats you have an option of getting are by looking at the character sheets of the sample characters in the previous chapter - that way at least you'll know what the social attributes are (Charisma, Manipulation, Appearance). But there still hasn't been even a one sentence description of what the heck any of these things do. And some of the things on those character sheets are pretty telegraphic: The Voodoo chick's weapon is a "Coco Macaque" (which is a Haitian magic stick, but lord help you if you're trying to figure that shit out without wikipedia), and she has 2 dots worth of "Followers (Zombies)".

It's a short chapter, and it doesn't contain a summary or much description of what anything is or does. The Virtues and Natures get one sentence descriptions, but that still isn't nearly enough to get even the foggiest idea of what-the-fuck because unlike "Strength" which you probably figure putting points into makes your character able to lift more things, it's not at all obvious what "You are quite familiar with Murphy's Law" means in this or any other context.

Image

There's some obvious insanity when it comes to the costs of things, you don't have to have read the entire book to get the sinking feeling that spending the same amount of "freebies" (which are the fungible starting character points you get) to buy a point of "Charisma" as to buy a point of "Epic Charisma" is probably not remotely fair. But much of the real crazy is only apparent later when it gets to the character advancement rules and it tells you that the costs to start with things are not remotely the same as the costs to buy them later, creating a butt load of ways to screw yourself over in character generation. The real fuck-you actually only comes in the next two hundred thousand word book, because the character advancement rules are cut off in this book. If you read through Demigod, you find that some things you might invest in for Hero don't really go anywhere and other things let you do a quick upgrade of your badassery to the point where it showers you with more power from the "demigod template" that adds more power than the other players' entire characters are worth. But that's for later. The chargen "chapter" is just six pages (five of which are just the chargen steps) and doesn't tell you shit. The fact that any character you make at this point is going to have sand kicked in his face by budding deities who have read this whole book and the next just makes it more pointless.

Chapter 3: Traits

This chapter is a 21 page description of what the nine attributes and 24 skills do. It still defers telling you how to actually play the game. The basic mechanics of the game are that you roll a number of d10s equal to the number of dots you have in an appropriate attribute added to the number of dots you have in the relevant skill. But despite the fact that we are introducing both skills and attributes in this chapter, that crucial data point is still being deferred. The fact that ten sided dice are used in any way in this game does not get mentioned until page 171 of this book. I just want to point out that the entire book of the AD&D Player's Handbook was only 128 pages long (if you include the advertisement for other TSR stuff at the end). This book goes nearly fifty pages longer than that before it stoops to mentioning that you might want to have some ten sided dice. It's like they are so trapped in their little White Wolf Bubble that it doesn't even occur to them that to 99.99% of the population when you say "Dice" it is assumed that you are talking about cubes.

But hey, the sixteen other people they were working with all knew that piles of d10s were involved, why wouldn't the reader?

Most of this chapter should have been folded into the last chapter. There are relatively few surprises in here, it tells you that "Stealth governs a person’s skill and experience at avoiding detection." Each skill is followed up by a description of what each level of the skill "means". These descriptions are objectively wrong, which means that there is a fuck tonne of wasted space in this chapter. For example, it says "A character with Science 3 is a skilled scientist or technician, with a solid foundation of knowledge and experience in her field." or "A character with Marksmanship 5 wields her weapons with near supernatural skill. Hitting a nickel-sized target from hundreds of yards away in high winds is as easy and natural as breathing." but that's total bullshit. Shadowrun 4 had the same problem with its skill descriptions, but at least it only had one stupid chart instead of making this fallacious claim for every single skill.

It's a game system where your dicepool is your Skill added to your attribute. So a character with Marksmanship 5 and a Dexterity of 1 is no more or differently accurate than a character with a Marksmanship of 1 and a Dexterity of 5. And both of them are less accurate than a character with a Marksmanship of 3 and a Dexterity of 4. And that's even before we get to the perhaps subtle point that a single extra dot of Epic Dexterity can mean more than the entire range of Marksmanship 1 to 5.

The chapter does tell you a little bit about some of the game's weird traits. Willpower is fairly familiar if you've played other White Wolf games - you spend it to do stuff or get bonuses and you get it back through roleplaying your Nature or rolling well. More importantly, you can spend a point of it to automatically resist mental control attempts, and no Scion could even theoretically start with less than 5 Willpower points. So you know ahead of time that when you get to those abilities they aren't going to be very useful against player characters or their equivalent. You also have Legend Points, which are basically the same thing but used in slightly different ways from a technical standpoint. The accounting on Legend points is really complicated, in that there are per-story limits on how many times you can spend your legend points to do various actions. That in essence gives you two pools: Legend Points and the not-explicitly-named "Legendary Deed Points" and to perform a Legendary Deed you need to spend one of each. The two pools start at the same value, but refresh at different times.

They reveal a little bit of the number accounting of this game in this section, mostly having to do with descriptions of how you spend various things. The mechanics are a half-assed retread of White Wolf mechanics and game terms taken from White Wolf games of yore pretty much at random. I'm guessing that we're seriously just looking at the results of some people thinking they were writing a modern day Exalted, some people they were making a new edition of Aberrant, and some people thinking they were doing a revised edition of New World of Darkness. The results are spotty at best.

But basically, that's the chapter. The next two chapters are lists of magic powers and the "How to Play" section is in the chapter after that. So hang on tight.

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Post by Username17 »

Parthenon wrote:Egypt is now in Europe? Since when?
Since we're talking about the Ancient Egyptian Pantheon as envisioned when it was part of the Roman Empire, meaning that it's politically, socially, and literally part of Europe.
Scion wrote:For certain, at least six such families of deities thrive today. Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome produced two...
We have lots of African gods in this book, but only ones which have been assimilated into European or North American traditions.
This sounds to me like someone planned out what the book would cover, gave out the different parts to lots of writers, and then the different writers never spoke to each other at all while writing. Then, the editor grabbed everything that was halfway finished and shoved it together. Unfortunately some of the writers didn't finish so large sections are missing.
That seems pretty plausible. I don't know what the 12 person "concept and design" team was doing during all of this, but only 4 of the 9 writers are on it. My guess is that the five authors not on the design committee were basically just writing whatever the fuck they felt like with little oversight or direction and emailing their drafts in at whatever state of completion they were at on deadline day.

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Post by squirrelloid »

Parthenon wrote:Egypt is now in Europe? Since when?

This sounds to me like someone planned out what the book would cover, gave out the different parts to lots of writers, and then the different writers never spoke to each other at all while writing. Then, the editor grabbed everything that was halfway finished and shoved it together. Unfortunately some of the writers didn't finish so large sections are missing.
Historical ancient 'europe' is the mediterranean, which includes the coastal near east and north africa, because they were pretty much culturally related if not homogenized for much of ancient history that anyone cares about. So yes, Egypt is 'europe' for the relevant time period.
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Post by Username17 »

Chapter 4: Epic Attributes & Knacks

There are lots of different kinds of magic powers in this game. One of them is "Epic Attributes". These are very much like your normal attributes (Strength, Appearance, Wits, etc.), but function slightly differently. For one thing, instead of giving extra dice, Epic Attributes give automatic successes. The first two dots of an Epic Attribute give out 1 automatic success each, the third dot gives out two, and you won't know until you pop open the Demigod expansion, but the subsequent increases in Epic Attributes go to crazy town. This is a whole lot like granting more dice. A die in this game grants an average of 1/2 of a success, so an automatic success is extremely similar to rolling two more dice. A character with a Charisma of 2 and an Epic Charisma of 2 is thusly almost indistinguishable from a character with a Charisma of 4 and an Epic Charisma of 1.

The authors come right out and say that Epic Attributes are handled unfairly when you compare character generation and character advancement.
Scion, page 124 wrote:Epic Attributes are cheapest at character creation.
Image

There is some complicated accounting, which basically comes down to: you have to spend all your Freebie Points on raising your Legend. Because if you do that, you are allowed to buy your Epic Attributes up to 3, and as previously noted, the third dot of an epic attribute is worth four points of a normal attribute by itself, which is in turn the entire starting range of attributes (which range from 1 to 5). As it happens, this is also the one true path to real ultimate power as explained in Demigod, but even just reading the writeup in this book, it is obvious.

They make things slightly more complicated by having your epic attributes not count when you're attempting tasks untrained, which makes a whole fucktonne of no sense when you consider how many strength-based tasks are performed "untrained". I really have no idea how to even describe someone who is super fast, but only normally fast at very new tasks and then instantly super fast again once they become a rank novice.

The way the Epic Attributes work would clearly break the game on expansion even if the game was on solid foundation to begin with. The third dot of an epic attribute is worth the entire mortal range of attributes. The fourth dot is worth more than that entire range. At the high end of the scale, having one point of epic whatever more or less breaks the entire RNG. So everyone has to get in on these Epic Attributes early and keep up with the Joneses or they are going to languish in obscurity in Failtown. Which is kind of a shame, because these Epic Attributes come out of the same character generation spending pool as your "Boons", which are the powers that Scions get that are supposed to be at least a little bit tied to the deific profile of their parent. More on why you don't care in Chapter 5.

But this weird accounting has one other major effect: Knacks. Every dot of Epic Attribute you pick up lets you select a magic power from a list for that attribute. Possibly to troll the players, the game offers you the ability to buy extra knacks at 75% of the cost of buying a bonus to your Epic Attribute that would give you one more knack in addition to the ever increasing pile of automagic successes. Considering that for 4 points instead of 3 you get the whole she-bang, I doubt that clause is invoked that often.

Some of these are hilarious. I don't know if it's intentional or not, but several of the Knacks for Epic Charisma give you the ability to make anime-style speeches about the power of friendship, which the monsters of the week are obligated to listen to before the fighting starts. Some of these cost Legend points to use, which means you won't be using them very often, but others are free. There does not appear to be a correlation in power between the ones that are very expensive to activate and those that are not. There are of course Knacks that fiddle around with experience point costs, which further makes a mockery of character balance after a few adventures. And finally, there are a bunch of Knacks that don't really have any effect other than magical teaparty - Refined Palette lets you recognize ingredients in food if you've ever had them before (so you get to argue with the Storyteller about whether you've had pheasant in the past or whether the current bunch of berries is similar enough to berries you've had in the past), for example.

The Knacks aren't even close to balanced with each other. I could talk about how some of them do awesome stuff and others of them don't, but really I think it is best exemplified by Holy Fortitude and Inner Furnace. They are both Epic Stamina Knacks meaning that whenever you are offered one you could take the other and there is never a situation where one is available and the other is not. Holy Fortitude doubles the amount of time you can go without food and water, Inner Furnace makes you immune to poison and allows you to survive indefinitely by eating and drinking things that aren't food. Inner Furnace is in all ways better than Holy Fortitude. They are right next to each other on the page, because of the alphabet.

Within each Epic Attribute description, there are weird kludge rules that make no sense. For example, let's say you have a Strength of 2, an Athletics of 2, and an Epic Strength of 1. In terms of your normal expected die rolls, it's pretty much the same as if you had a Strength of 4 and an Athletics of 2. But for lifting purposes, it's like you had a Strength of 6 and an Athletics of 2. Because lifting is already a weird chart and the Epic Strength effects have a special non-standard interaction with it that follows no logic at all.

And that's the chapter. It's totally and gleefully unbalanced in virtually every possible way it is possible to do so. It is possibly the least elegant set of super strength rules I have ever seen in my life.

Next up: Chapter 5: Boons and Birthrights.

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Post by wotmaniac »

Frank, you're not helping me to not hate this game. :tongue:

FrankTrollman wrote: The next thing they attempt to do, and also fail at, is to set up the framing for what gods they include in the book. They happen to include six groups of gods, taken from 6 cultures: Aztec, Egyptian, Greek, Japanese, Norse, and Voodoo. So for people keeping track at home, that's 3 European, 2 North American, and one Japanese. @FirstWorldProblems. But then they tried to pull a weird rant about how those gods were the only ones that were definitely not dead or something.
But that's what the rules for making new gods are for :tonguesmilie: (wait -- was that in this book, or in Companion?)
It's very weird to me that the Hindu gods (who I remind you have seven hundred and fifty million worshipers today) aren't discussed, but in any case the framing is all fucked.
But that would have stolen material for Scion: Companion.
They could have just said that those were the gods that they happened to be covering in this book.
implied by the release of Companion. perhaps?
(don't get me wrong -- I am in no way whatsoever excusing/justifying this abortion)
and the gods specifically don't really do anything except try to make up for their bad and distant parenting with periodic expensive gifts,
This may have been the rendering of one of the writers doing an exercise for their therapist: "find a creative outlet to deal with your daddy abandoning you when you were 7".
Each pantheon of the game's pantheon has like seven to twelve gods in it, and each god is given a lot of weird little toggles that affect your character in various ways if they are your father. The most prominent of this is that they have lists of skills and powers that you get to take at a discount. These lists are not only extremely unbalanced in that you might get a discount on a flavor ability like "art" or an all-important combat ability like "thrown" (in this game, thrown weapons are the best weapons, so getting a discount on that would be very good, while getting a discount on firearms would be kind of shitty). But this isn't even an emergent property of the fact that not all skills or Boons are created equal, some gods simply give longer lists of discounts than other gods.
I think you may be understating this by an order of magnitude or two.
Just off the top of my head, while Raiden and Susano-o may be similarly-themed, I cannot for the life of me figure-out why you would ever take Raiden over Susano-o. And if you just wanted to be a tank, Huitzilopochtli appears to be your only real option (though, Ares comes in at a close second).
(oh, wait ... I forgot that you did go down this road in the other thread)
There is no attempt that I can see to tie these godly grand designs into the actual missions that the player characters are actually going on.
I think that's what Scion: Ragnarok was supposed to be for. maybe?
so you'd think they could just fall on women as a golden rain and get them pregnant that way.
Did you just inadvertently work-in a urolagnia reference? :ugone2far:
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Post by Grek »

No, that's a Greek Mmythology reference. Zeus appeared before Danae as a shower of gold, seduced her and then nine months later she gave birth to the hero Perseus.
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Post by Koumei »

Yeah, they later on release a splat for Irish gods (so, Europe again) and then Chinese gods (so an excuse to copy-pasta from Exalted and Kindred of the Ag, but it gets points for Guan Yu being included). I can't remember if they go on to cover Hindu gods, "proper" African gods or whatever.

Also, will you be going into detail on why throwing is awesome? The book has an AD&D style list of melee weapons from different cultures, then a tiny section on ranged stuff - half of which are guns (Speed ranging from 4 to 6), and of the other half, the best looks like the small bow (+1 accuracy and speed 5 rather than the 6 of everything else in that list).
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Post by wotmaniac »

the reason throwing is far superior to, say, firearms, is that with thrown weapons, you also get to add Strength to your damage pool.
So, once you break out of the Hero level in to the Demigod level, firearms (or non-thrown ranged weapons in general) become obsolete.


The Hindu pantheon is indeed covered in Companion ... along with several intellectually-offensive pantheons.
(I only wish I had the time and drive to do one of these reviews on Companion)
Grek wrote:No, that's a Greek Mmythology reference. Zeus appeared before Danae as a shower of gold, seduced her and then nine months later she gave birth to the hero Perseus.
Ah ... oh yeah.
just shows how my mind works, I guess :fart:
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Post by Koumei »

I guess I should be glad they collapsed before they could release a book full of weapons throughout the ages (so that your modern day dude can wander around with an assortment of ancient stuff to draw attention, which is a good thing in this game), assorted by associated pantheon, with some of them randomly being completely awesome in every single way.
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wotmaniac wrote:the reason throwing is far superior to, say, firearms, is that with thrown weapons, you also get to add Strength to your damage pool.
So, once you break out of the Hero level in to the Demigod level, firearms (or non-thrown ranged weapons in general) become obsolete.
It's worse than that. At Demigod tier you can ignore all cover bonuses when you're attacking with thrown objects and they have range comparable to firearms in addition to dealing way more damage. By God tier the game has completely unraveled, but there's an Epic Strength Knack that makes all thrown weapons Piercing (divides armor bonus to soak by two) and they also deal essentially unsoakable Aggravated damage.

It's arguably thematic that "god" tier characters aren't going to use SMGs, but even Hero tier characters have basically no reason to do so when they're getting 1 to 4 automatic successes on a damage roll out of Epic Strength. I'll take +2 dice and +3 automatic successes over the +5 damage dice for using an assault rifle any day.
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Post by Koumei »

Given you add Strength to archery weapons, I'd still go with a bow (and thus Marksmanship) at Hero and probably Demigod tiers. After all, attacking every single tick is awesome, and you need to add Relic dots to a weapon for that, and while you could totally have a Relic spear, you probably don't have six of them. One Relic bow gives you one attack per tick, with your Epic Strength still mattering.

Now admittedly, once you're a God, you might have the ability to treat everything as a Relic, or just boost your own Speed innately. I don't know. Or maybe you can just throw a bus that hits all the enemies at once for 50 Ag.
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Post by Username17 »

Chapter 5: Boons and Birthrights

Boons and Birthrights are compiled into a single chapter even though they are bought with a different pool. Boons are bought out of the same pool as Epic Attributes, and Birthrights have their own pool they are purchased from. So from the character generation standpoint, it would have made more sense to lump Boons with Epic Attributes. But Boons require you to have magic items on your person in order to use and other people are able to use "your" Boons by getting the magic item (which is a whole lot like them not actually being your powers at all), and those magic items are classed as Birthrights, which is I think why they are in the same chapter together. Regardless, this is a 33 page chapter and they don't really talk about Birthrights for the first nineteen, so they might as well be different chapters.

So they talk about Boons first, so we should too. Every Boon you start with comes at the cost of one dot of Epic Attribute and one Knack. So it's really expensive to start with a Boon. Each Boon is tied to a magic item, which means that the primary advantage of Boons is that you can allow your team mates to "steal" your magic items to use your super powers until they give them back (or you "recover" it, if you prefer). The Boons are also the only part of your character that is thematically associated with your divine parentage. So this whole power trading is so amazingly anti-thematic that I am actually flabbergasted that this setup made it through even this book's insane 17 person production staff. Surely someone would have noticed that Scions actually aren't tied to their divine parentage in any way.

So for example: the "main character" of this book, a title I bestow upon Donner because he is on the cover of the book and had a 38 page novella dedicated to him and no other facet of this fucking game, is the son of Thor. This means that he can spend a Legend point to make storms happen and when he fights, and then all of his attacks are accompanied by gusts of wind and thunder crashes that knock people around. Sounds pretty reasonable for a legacy of the thunder god, no? Well, he only has that as long as he has his big pistol on him, and if any other character took the pistol then they could spend one of their legend points to make storms happen and make thunderous booms every time they attacked.

Indeed, one of the simplest ways to powergame in this game is to make a character who has 10 Boons worth of jewelry and then get him killed so that the rest of the team can pick up the gadgets and have a fuck tonne more magic powers while you go make a real character who has 10 points of Epic Attributes because that is the one true path to real ultimate power. Another thing that is insane is that at character generation, Boons cost an arm and a leg. Each purview has a one dot power, a two dot power, and a three dot power, and each power costs a number of dots of Epic Attributes equal to its dot value. So Donner's storm power that isn't really even his because it's in an object he can give away or lose is a three dot power. That means he could have had one more dot in Epic Strength, Epic Dexterity and Epic Stamina instead of having that one flavorful but not terribly potent magic power. Also he would have gotten three Knacks out of the deal, many of which could have been about as good as the entire storm power and also not be losable.

But it wouldn't be White Wolf without something confusing and stupid going on. And so it is that there are nine purviews that are "special". There are six purviews that are specific to one pantheon in the pantheon. You can't steal or gift these ones, because they don't require or use magic items. Some of them are also weird and special in other ways, for example the Greek one is actually a skill enhancer that you can buy multiple times on individual skills. Since Boons are generally speaking more expensive than skills, you would never do this on character creation. But because of advancement limits and non-linear XP costs to advance things, there are times when powerful Greek Scions would buy that - if the game hadn't already collapsed by then, which of course it would. About the only one I would seriously consider giving up an Epic attribute dot for is the first level of Heku: Ren's Harvest. That refreshes your Legend Points whenever someone in the world tells a story about how cool you are. You aren't allowed to pay people to do that, but the other player characters certainly are - so you could just have an essentially limitless river of legend points all the time, which seems useful enough to consider giving up a single dot of Epic Stat. But of course, your dad has to be Egyptian to do that.

But there's still three more non-standard purviews. They are Magic, Mystery, and Prophecy. If those things sound the same to you, you are not alone. Each one works like a nWoD thaumaturgical discipline. Which is to say that you have to buy the dots up in order, and once you have a certain number of dots you can buy new spells. But these are still attached to magic items that are still transferable. So I seriously don't know what the fuck they were thinking here. You have a Crystal Skull that gives you magic while you have it, but if someone takes it from you, then they know magic, and then they know... your spells? Spells of their choice? I don't fucking know. Authors weren't talking to each other here.

Image

Finally, we get to Birthrights. You have five points to spend on these as a starting character, and they can be divided between Creatures, Guides, Followers, and Relics. Relics are the things that let you actually use Boons other than your Pantheon Specific Boon, so if you were going to start with any of those (which you will not), you would be required by law to take a Relic. in most cases, you are required by law to take a Relic anyway, because if you don't have a magic weapon you can't do shit for shit.

However, while the costs of these Birthrights are linear, the effects are not. With one dot of followers you get five cops. With three dots of Followers you get five mystical Amazon warriors. Certainly, putting one dot into several different things is something you could do, but that would be stupid. The more points you put into one Birthright, the more you get per point you spent on that Birthright. So one Birthright at 2 is worth more than two Birthrights at 1.

And at the high end it gets ridiculous. With five dots of Followers you get five Valkyrie who are so badass that they don't even get stats in this book and are actually written up as combat encounters in the Demigod book down the line. Each one of them has fifteen dots of Epic Attributes, which means that she is individually better than any two starting characters together, and you apparently get five of them to use as shield maidens. So actually that is something ridiculous enough to give up having a magic weapon that is capable of harming your enemies. Creature is basically the same setup. Five dots gets you a demi-god tier Basilisk or Roc. You will not under any circumstances give up having a magic weapon to have a super great Guide, that is not a thing that is going to happen.

But assuming for the moment that you can't get your Storyteller to approve you on cashing out your entire Birthright reserve on a Pokemon who is better than the entire party, you're going to have a magic weapon. Note that the rules for Relics here contradict the rules for Boons when talking about how Relics interact with Boons, and then contradicts itself again. Twice. I can only assume this is because the different authors weren't talking to each other. But I also have to point out that this is the same fucking chapter. Magic items are actually incredibly disappointing, in that each dot lets you access one purview (note that you do not give an actual fuck about this at chargen because you won't have any regardless), or lets you move the numbers on an item up and down. Of these, the only number that is really worth talking about is the speed number, which is a force multiplier of how many times you can attack with it in a given time. Relics also can have "non standard" powers, which are supposed to be compared to the other birthright choices. Considering that taking five dots in Pokemon lets you grab monsters from the next tier up, I can't readily imagine what you couldn't get.

The default choice of course is to have a super fast thrown weapon that returns to your hand after being thrown (such as Mjolnir), or a super fast bow that never runs out of arrows. What other stuff it does is between you and the Storyteller. Giving access to purviews is a sucker's game, but one of the sample characters has their incredibly stupidly built (from an attack stats standpoint) relic pistol set give him the arbitrary ability to spend a legend point to make people either fall in love with people or turn to hatred of people. That's weird and kind of cool, so if you have a big magic weapon you have an easy time arguing that it can do something neat in addition to the basics of letting you attack every tick at long range forever.

And that's the chapter. We are now 169 pages into the book, and we haven't gotten to the rules. But at least the basic mechanics of the system do appear in the next chapter.

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Post by Nachtigallerator »

Archmage wrote:
wotmaniac wrote:the reason throwing is far superior to, say, firearms, is that with thrown weapons, you also get to add Strength to your damage pool.
So, once you break out of the Hero level in to the Demigod level, firearms (or non-thrown ranged weapons in general) become obsolete.
It's worse than that. At Demigod tier you can ignore all cover bonuses when you're attacking with thrown objects and they have range comparable to firearms in addition to dealing way more damage. By God tier the game has completely unraveled, but there's an Epic Strength Knack that makes all thrown weapons Piercing (divides armor bonus to soak by two) and they also deal essentially unsoakable Aggravated damage.

It's arguably thematic that "god" tier characters aren't going to use SMGs, but even Hero tier characters have basically no reason to do so when they're getting 1 to 4 automatic successes on a damage roll out of Epic Strength. I'll take +2 dice and +3 automatic successes over the +5 damage dice for using an assault rifle any day.
It's actually worse: Knacks can be taken at any level at which you meet the prerequisites - which means that a player could start the game with the power to make thrown weapons deal practically unsoakable aggravated damage. I'll dig up the rule if you'd like me to prove it, but the godly tiers you mentioned don't even exist for knacks.

Terrific review, love reading it. :)
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Post by Username17 »

Chapter 6: Rules

Here we are, on page 170, we are promised the actual rules to this game. Honestly, this game should have been less than 170 pages total, but there has been a lot of filler. Credit where credit is due however, the introduction to the Rules chapter is actually very nice. It's good enough that I'm going to actually post it in its entirety:
Scion wrote:Much of the rest of this book sets out the fundamentals of the shared world in which your group plays. This chapter is the groundwork laid so that your group storytelling doesn’t devolve into “I shot you!” and “No, you didn’t!”

Rule 0: More important than any rule about how much your Scion can lift or whether or not he shoots the bad guy is this rule: Have Fun. If you and your friends aren’t enjoying yourselves, something’s got to change. Maybe even how you play.

Corollary: The corollary to Rule 0 is that it’s okay to change the game—meaning the setting or the rules—in order to have more fun. It is, in fact, better than not playing the game. After all, somebody bought this book, so you might as well get your money’s worth.
That's just really refreshing. A Rule Zero tirade that doesn't fap to the all powerful nature of the MC and acknowledges the purpose of rules and the malleability of the system and setting from a cooperative storytelling standpoint. It's almost like whoever wrote that wasn't working for White Wolf.

Still, the book is an absolute mess. The bit where it tells you that to play the game you need the book and a pile of d10s comes on page one hundred and seventy one. You'd think that would be in the introduction somewhere, but it's seriously not.

The basic rules are that if you are called upon to make a roll, you roll a number of d10s equal to an attribute plus a skill plus a stunt modifier (usually 2 dice if you're a named character and zero dice if you are not). A roll of 7, 8, or 9 counts as one success, a roll of 10 counts as two successes. So you'll note that this is more Exalted dicepools than nWoD dicepools, and the average is 1/2 of a success per die rather than 1/3 like in nWoD. Also note that they kept the incredibly terrible nomenclature where a good result on a single die is "a success" and getting enough good results on enough dice is also called "a success". Considering that Shadowrun 4 had been out for a couple of years when they wrote this and the "hits" vs. "success" nomenclature had already been invented, this is weak sauce.

"Botches" follow in the grand tradition of Dicepool games in that they have terrible mechanics designed by people who couldn't be fucked to do math or just didn't care. If you roll no successes on your test and you roll at least one 1, then you botch. So if you roll one die you botch 10% of your rolls, and if you roll two dice you both 11% of your rolls, and if you roll 8 dice then 77% of your failures are also botches. Fortunately, Epic Attributes give you automatic successes, so you never ever botch when you have super strength, which you do.

Time is handled in an extremely annoying way that is lifted from Exalted. But despite dedicating nearly a full page to it here, they only really set out to define game terms. This game has seven game terms for time, not including real-world terms like second, minute, hour, and day. But the "what" and the "the fuck" doesn't get talked about until next chapter because this book has a pacing problem.

The game continues the World of Darkness tradition of leaving skills and attributes "unpaired". Meaning that there is no particular reason you could not be called upon to roll Strength + Science or Wits + Athletics in a sufficiently obscure situation. The game does basically admit that you are going to be adding Perception to Awareness rolls pretty much all the time, which is a little bit refreshing in its honesty.

There is a six step ordering for how you add modifiers, but I am fucked if I could tell you what fucking difference it makes other than that you have dicepool minimum equal to your Legend that kicks in after all the modifiers. Really it seems like it could have been two steps: apply all modifiers, raise dicepool to pool floor if necessary. Done.

The game gives a shout-out to single roll extended tests to adjust timeframes, but doesn't actually give a timeframe chart or any examples, so you're on your own. Failing that, it has the same "roll a giant pile of dice twenty times" system we see in Shadowrun and nWoD. It is made slightly less of ridiculously foregone conclusion by the inclusion of success minimums on individual rolls to advance the task, but the overall number of accumulated successes you need and the threshold to generate successes on an individual roll are both called "difficulty".

Also you get your standard opposed tests, reflexive actions, and special rules for lifting and falling and such.

The game varies difficulty by requiring different amounts of successes to achieve success (grumble). There is no difficulty chart, which is something of an oversight, and it only provides examples for difficulty 1 and difficulty 2. Considering that a starting character can have 4 automatic successes on tests involving three different attributes, I think this is a rather serious oversight. In essence, there basically isn't a game here, just some inputs that you could feed into a White Wolf style game.

Basically the long and the short of it is that this is a random pile of White Wolf mechanics pulled from the favorite White Wolf games of 17 different people and jumbled together haphazardly. There was some innovation here, but none of it was finished. Not all of the parts of the rules engine appear to talk to each other, and basic assumptions of what numbers mean appear to be undecided as of publication time.

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Post by Archmage »

Nachtigallerator wrote:It's actually worse: Knacks can be taken at any level at which you meet the prerequisites - which means that a player could start the game with the power to make thrown weapons deal practically unsoakable aggravated damage. I'll dig up the rule if you'd like me to prove it, but the godly tiers you mentioned don't even exist for knacks.
This doesn't surprise me at all. I don't actually have the God book handy, so for some reason I assumed you had to be in God tier Legend-wise to take Knacks listed in the God book. If you don't, well, that's pretty stellar.
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