Dominions 4 Teasers

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:44 pm

Wow. Badass.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:46 pm

Are you still looking for that sub?

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:59 pm

Nope, Red Rob picked it up.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:11 am

Dominions 4 looks to be 75% off on Steam right now. Anyone that's been thinking of giving it a try but didn't want to drop $30 on it, now's your chance.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:49 am

Some pretty cool mod nations lately.

http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4 ... remism-101

http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4 ... blue-curse

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:45 am

If I have Dom 3 and am very much satisfied with it, what are the reasons I might still want Dom 4? ("Team play" and "Access to a larger pool of opponents" are the big two from the cursory research I've made myself, but those aren't quite enough to make the sale.)

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:06 am

'Automatically sets recruited mages to Research' sold me.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:25 am

Well, firstly there are so many little interface changes that smooth things along I don't think I could go back:

[*] Itemised casualty reports for both sides including castle storms
[*] 'Are you sure?' confirmation message on pressing End Turn
[*] One-click Blood Slave collection and pooling
[*] Edit individual orders in a command list
[*] Viewable province history listing all the events that have triggered there
[*] Mage paths viewable from the map screen
[*] 'Repeat recruitment' option
[*] Items you don't have the paths to forge visible but greyed out
[*] Secondary weapon effects now visible
[*] Communions now display the number of slaves and the pathboost on each member
[*] Many new icons for unit abilities

The changes to gameplay are mostly positive too:

[*] Research changes mean it is easy getting schools at a low level but a real investment to get them high, leading to more interesting choices
[*] No province tax setting cuts down on micro and makes unrest more meaningful
[*] Commander squads and leadership changes mean national commanders have more worth, makes using decoys harder
[*] Slow to recruit mages means less top-shelf mages, leading to more interesting tactical decisions when using them
[*] Removal of gemgens and slight reduction of gems overall leads to lengthened middle game
[*] Combat changes to hit location and fatigue make humans more survivable, big monsters more vulnerable
[*] Forge discount changes mean it is harder to heavily discount high cost items, leading to less uber-SC builds
[*] Some units recruitable without forts in various terrain helps differentiate nations
[*] Movement and terrain changes make map layout more of a consideration
[*] Thrones combine Victory Points and magic sites in a flavourful way and stop games regularly running to 100+ turns

Then you can include all the new spells, units, 10+ new nations and the massively increased modding support. I paid full price for Dom4 on release and I've definitely been very pleased with the upgrade from Dom3.

On a side note I've also been very happy with the way Illwinter have supported their games. Dom3 had years of patches including new content, new modding tools and entire new nations and never charged for it as DLC or an expansion pack. So buying Dom4 helps encourage this attitude in future.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:26 pm

Those are some very good points there, not least the "side note". Sold!

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:17 pm

Repeat recruitment and mage paths on the map screen and visible secondary weapons already existed. The rest is indeed awesome.

Also there's a bunch of new nations. EA has Xibalba, Ur, and Berytos. MA has Xibalba, Vanarus, Nazca, and Asphodel. LA has Xibalba and Ragha.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:37 am

Orion wrote:Repeat recruitment and mage paths on the map screen

You might want to open Dom3 again, thats definitly an Dom4 improvement.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:49 am

That's what I meant about not being able to go back - the thought of having to manually do a lot of the shit that has been automated or simplified seems unworkable now. It almost seems like it has always been that way.

K · Post by K » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:24 am

I'm trying to start up another game. It'll be called BadNationsForBadPeople.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:21 pm

Talk to me about Niefelheim. Early in the Dom4 cycle, Frank responded to a request for a guide to niefels by repeating his assertion from Dom3 that no guide is really required because niefelheim is so powerful (and fractally powerful) that almost any strategy could be viable.

The prevailing opinion in the circles I run in is that niefelheim is actually pretty bad. Fire vulnerability makes niefel giants risky for offensive war, the regen blessing is expensive, skinshifters are capped which means you need enough resources for a hydrid hirdman/shifter line, gold to research has become really weak, slow-recruit skrattir force you to chooce between big blood hunting and numerous thugs, there are more and more effective anti-thug weapons, and human troops are surprisingly good at fighting giants thanks to pierce weapons and repels. Plus, humanoid sacreds get used nnow and many of them are effective giant-killers. Midgame research has relatively few killer apps for niefel and lategame is now much harder to access.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:13 pm

I have to admit I haven't actually played Niefelheim in Dom4, or in fact any EA MP games at all. However, the general weakening of Giants vs human troops, the loss of 120 design points and the scaling back of thugs and SC's (two of Neif's trademark tactics) would seem to suggest a weakened nation. Although the replacement of Giant PD would be a slight bonus, I can't imagine it would outweigh the nerfs.

Whether that actually makes Neif bad is another matter. They still get recruitable SC's and thugs, the Gygja isn't slow to recruit and for all Neifel Giants reliance on Cold your Dominion still spreads it, winter brings it to everyone and Wolven Winter is pretty easily castable wherever you are planning to attack. I'd be willing to play them in an EA game. Maybe I'll propose one once one of my current games ends and give them a try.

K · Post by K » Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:42 pm

Considering that it's easier to cast Water spells that require gems because of the Water Lens, I'd think that Neifleheim had gained enough spellcaster nation juice to offset the haircut that SCs and giants got.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:45 pm

K wrote:Considering that it's easier to cast Water spells that require gems because of the Water Lens

How so? Surely you could just have put the gems you spent on the Water Lens onto the caster before you sent him out. Sure it makes things more convenient and cuts down on the micro of having gem carrying scouts follow the army, but I don't see how it gives a nation "more spellcaster juice"?

K · Post by K » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:26 am

Red_Rob wrote:
K wrote:Considering that it's easier to cast Water spells that require gems because of the Water Lens
How so? Surely you could just have put the gems you spent on the Water Lens onto the caster before you sent him out. Sure it makes things more convenient and cuts down on the micro of having gem carrying scouts follow the army, but I don't see how it gives a nation "more spellcaster juice"?

People tend to be conservative with gems. They aren't going to blow them on "small" battles even if they have a good stockpile and income.

With items like the Water Lens, you can just do every battle with a spell like Wave Warriors or Quickening, and it's going to add up over the turns into lots of not-dead units.

Carrying your own generator of temp gems also means that schemes to cut off gem-carrying scouts are foiled. That means that relying on gem-costing spells becomes a more stable proposition.

Archmage · Post by **Archmage** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:39 am

What're good parameters for thrones in MP games? How many thrones/throne points per player?

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:04 am

Somewhere between controlling 1/3rd and 1/2 the map/thrones.

I personally find high numbers of thrones games amusing, but it probably gets pretty swingy with magic diversity.

I played around with Neifelheim:

Magic diversity:
F0E0A1W4N3S2D3B3, with +A, +1W, +1N, +1S, +1D, and +1B on 10% randoms.

You have full access to water, nature (moonvine bracelets are easy for you), death, and blood, and decent access to Astral and weak access to air. You have a S3D3B3N2 hero that shows up reasonably often, it seems, and an A3D3W3 hero, which becomes Air4, which means you basically will eventually have full air access, too.

You have no Earth or Fire access. Earth access you'll be incredibly inclined to get through your pretender.

So the suits you have least access to are Fire, Earth, and Air. Some of those are good, but you've got partial access to 2 of them right off the bat.

__________________________________________________
Your neifels are great recruitable thugs, with water (liquid body, quicken self), death (soul vortex, invulnerability), and sometimes a bit of air (mirror image, air shield), plus a self-blessing. They also can be W4 or D3 battle mages, which means Falling Frost spam, Quagmire, Grip of Winter, Darkness, Wailing Winds, Wind of Death, Rigor Mortis, and Life After Death.

And in terms of remote attacks, Woven Winter and Murdering Winter, Manifestation, Arouse Hunger, and Leprousy.

Your Skratti get the above water options, plus blood. Your Gaja get the above death options, plus Nature, Astral and Blood. You have a lot of good uses for your mages, and while they're expensive and non-sacred, they're also good.

Troop wise, a high blessing Neifel Giant is still a pretty good troop, as are skinshrifters. Or if you drop the blessing, Hirdmin and Skinshrifters are still tools that you can leverage for victory.

In terms of thugging, you have easy access to Water Brands, Vine Shields, Horror Helmets, Shrouds or Ethereal Cloaks, Boots of the Messenger, Rings of Regeneration, boots of quickness, Barkskin amulets.

_____________________________________________________
You have thugs, and the means to equip them. You have solid battle mages. You have magic diversity. You have communions if you want them. You have remote attack spells.

Even with an imprisoned Great Mother: E9N4 gives you 213 points to play with, or E4N4 (453) or N9E4: 253 points. E9N9 leaves you with just 13, which I'd say might be a bit harsh. But with 213 points to play with, you can run Dom6, O3C3M2 and your pick of 3 more scales. Productivity is actually not that big a deal for you with a bless (Neifel and Skinshrifters have low resource costs), or you can drop the bless down to E4N4 and end up with O3P3C3G3M2M3, which will help your research, gold.

I think there are viable strategies here. If you're going against someone with firemages, Fire Resistance at Alteration 5. I'd happily give it a shot in a MP game.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:43 am

Ikeren wrote:You have a S3D3B3N2 hero that shows up reasonably often, it seems, and an A3D3W3 hero, which becomes Air4, which means you basically will eventually have full air access, too.

Is it just me or do Heroes seem to show up more in Dom4? It seems most games I get at least 1 even without luck scales.

Also, how does Tjatse become A4?

GreatGreyShrike · Post by **GreatGreyShrike** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:19 pm

Red_Rob wrote:
Ikeren wrote:You have a S3D3B3N2 hero that shows up reasonably often, it seems, and an A3D3W3 hero, which becomes Air4, which means you basically will eventually have full air access, too.
Is it just me or do Heroes seem to show up more in Dom4? It seems most games I get at least 1 even without luck scales.

Also, how does Tjatse become A4?

Tjatse shapechanges into a great eagle which *should* give him an air bonus and a minus to other magic, which is fine for helping the forging of air boosters.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:25 pm

Ok cool. That isn't showing on the mod inspector but neither does the water magic penalty on the landshape of the Slave Mages of R'lyeh. Might be something to raise with Larzm42.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:59 am

Orion wrote:Talk to me about Niefelheim. Early in the Dom4 cycle, Frank responded to a request for a guide to niefels by repeating his assertion from Dom3 that no guide is really required because niefelheim is so powerful (and fractally powerful) that almost any strategy could be viable.

The prevailing opinion in the circles I run in is that niefelheim is actually pretty bad. Fire vulnerability makes niefel giants risky for offensive war, the regen blessing is expensive, skinshifters are capped which means you need enough resources for a hydrid hirdman/shifter line, gold to research has become really weak, slow-recruit skrattir force you to chooce between big blood hunting and numerous thugs, there are more and more effective anti-thug weapons, and human troops are surprisingly good at fighting giants thanks to pierce weapons and repels. Plus, humanoid sacreds get used nnow and many of them are effective giant-killers. Midgame research has relatively few killer apps for niefel and lategame is now much harder to access.

The big issue is that Niefel got really hurt on the research department. Having your recruit-everywhere mage being slow-to-recruit makes it harder to ramp up research; not helped by Niefel tending to need its Skratti on the front lines fighting.

I suspect a scales-focused Niefel with an early rush for Gygas/Body Ethereal is the way to go for winning your first war without crippling your end game.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:06 am

Zinegata wrote:Having your recruit-everywhere mage being slow-to-recruit makes it harder to ramp up research

Isn't the Gygja their recruit anywhere mage? They aren't slow to recruit. The recruit anywhere Thug is slow to recruit.

Having your cheapest mage at 225 gold doesn't make for great research though, I'll grant you.