Orb of Dragonkind question

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:34 pm

The artifact orb of dragonkind grands the bearer the AC and saving throw bonuses of the dragon matching the orb. "These values replace whatever values the character would otherwise have, whether better or worse. These values cannot be modified by any means short of ridding the character of the orb."

The question is what counts as modifying the AC? Is touch AC a separate number for touch attacks, or do touch attacks make the target lose the modifiers for that attack, which is negated by the Orb? From what flat-footed and similar attacks show in the rules, they actually lower the AC against those attacks, and are thus not numerically lost; indirectly giving the benefits of Uncanny Dodge?

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:45 pm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Size Category: Ancient
Color: As Orb
AC: Refer to <color> Dragon Abilities by Age table
Saves: Refer to <color> Dragons by Age table

That said, I once wrote a short module featuring the Orb of Faery-Dragon Kind. That was a fun adventure. It was largely inspired by Faery Meat and used the Hackmaster rules.

Archmage · Post by **Archmage** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:45 pm

I read the orbs as overwriting whatever the bearer's stats would be if they didn't have the orb. Your own statline is irrelevant; pull up the dragon's statline and read it instead.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:55 pm

Archmage wrote:I read the orbs as overwriting whatever the bearer's stats would be if they didn't have the orb. Your own statline is irrelevant; pull up the dragon's statline and read it instead.

So enhancement bonuses don't improve/lessen the Orb bearer's AC, but circumstance/nameless bonuses do? Or do their baseline numbers from size/natural/dexterity shift to match that of the dragon, then they can wear armor and enchant themselves as normal?

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:15 pm

Neither. By a strict reading, when you have the orb no modifiers to AC apply, either positive or negative. You can be a naked halfling laughing as the arrows bounce off you or a paladin in magical full plate, your AC with the orb is the same.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:22 pm

Ancient History wrote:Neither. By a strict reading, when you have the orb no modifiers to AC apply, either positive or negative. You can be a naked halfling laughing as the arrows bounce off you or a paladin in magical full plate, your AC with the orb is the same.

Hence my original question. What counts as a modifier to AC vs a modifier to the assailant's attack bonus? Flat-footed? Touch attacks? Presumably modifiers from higher ground, flanking, and being invisible all give their +2 as bonuses to attacks rather than penalties to AC; while cover, prone, stunning, blindness, helplessness, and similar give no penalty to the Orb bearer.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:07 pm

OKay, from the table for Ancient Black Dragons:

38 (-2 size,+30 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 38

So, there you go. You hold the Orb of Dragonkind (Black), that is what you have.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:22 pm

Am I that hard to understand?

SRD wrote:Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Going by a strict reading, you have basic Uncanny Dodge, because you cannot ever be denied your Dexterity bonus to AC. Is this only for flat-footed AC, or is there similar language for touch attacks?

With such effects as this, you can be naked & unconscious; and they still have to hit your 38 AC unless they perform a coup de grace. You could be exposing only your face from behind a wall, prone, & performing total defense; and archers still only have to hit an AC 38.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:40 pm

"Artifact." If you don't like it, homerule it.

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:47 pm

Touch AC would be the same as the dragon in question. All of your other questions have already been answered - no effect, circumstance, or item can modify the character's AC in any way barring the loss of the orb.

I should probably also point out that the wording of the powers of the orbs were only minimally altered when transcribing from their 2E formats, so they come from a time which such questions were answered with an empty pizza box to the face.

echo

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:13 pm

Pretty much. Either strict reading or sensible reading houseruling.

A strict reading is just as AH suggests.

You could certainly homerule it to be more sensible so that AC does change based upon whether you have cover, are flat footed, etc. but the artifact is wacky as written.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:36 am

Ancient History wrote:"Artifact." If you don't like it, homerule it.

I'm not trying to argue whether it's good or bad, I was looking for clarification so I know whether I understood how it works.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:44 am

It's rather straightforward. It does everything except send you a link to the table. A strict reading is that your AC is as listed for an ancient <color> dragon - including the touch and flat-footed AC listed - with no modifiers, such as feats or armor. A more liberal reading might allow for some situational differences on whatever rational you choose.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:47 pm

Poor imps and archers, benefiting from the Orb seems supremely inconvenient.

My next question, if you dominate a dragon with the Orb, does control of the dragon shift with/to the owner of the Orb? If you control a dragon and someone steals it, do they now control the commanded dragon?

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:58 pm

virgil wrote:Poor imps and archers, benefiting from the Orb seems supremely inconvenient.

My next question, if you dominate a dragon with the Orb, does control of the dragon shift with/to the owner of the Orb? If you control a dragon and someone steals it, do they now control the commanded dragon?

Indeed, leave it to Artifacts to not be as awesome as one hoped, though I like the notion of Naked Halflings bouncing arrows off their chests.

SRD wrote: The bearer of an Orb can dominate dragons of its particular variety within 500 feet (as dominate monster)

Well, it would be rather climatic for control to switch, and according the SRD, whoever's currently possessing the Orb, has its powers. However, that is a good question, in theory, if it's like casting the spell, it should stay under your control, as in a typical case when ye cast a spell, ye don't lose domination because that spell is now gone/expended for the day. If you lose a staff that had Domination, imagine ye wouldn't lose hold of the Dominated target.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:49 pm

Hey, so the dragon orbs from Dragonlance are basically orbs of Dragonkind, right? Does anyone know how they differ mechanically from the rules described in the DMG?

Also, where does it say what age category/size of dragon you get the AC of? I couldn't find that part in the DMG.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:17 pm

It's my understanding that Dragonlance's orbs can summon dragons, has an ego score, scry (possibly through time), influence dragon-type creatures, and have command over more than one colour (only chromatic, IIRC). Oh, and they can be physically destroyed fairly easily.

I haven't referred to the DMG in ages, but in the online SRD I use, it states in the first line that it has an ancient dragon inside it.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:53 pm

Thankee-sai, virgil.