What's D&D/PF like if you take out full casters?

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:33 am

So no wizards, clerics, or druids but Bards are in. What's a good list of partial casters in 3.5?

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:48 am

Getting devoured by monsters has never been easier! Seriously, a Naga has full casting AND is a giant snake that outfights the fighter. If you take out full casters, you'll need be very careful about throwing serious threats at the PCs.

For the purposes of this exercise, do beguilers/warlocks/totemists count as full casters?

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:54 am

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:07 am

I think it would be a Mystery Men scenario. The B-Team of 6th level casters like Bards, Summoners, Alchemists, and Duskblades would step up as the new crew who save the day. I don't think you can go lower than 6th level casters while still allowing the part to play the game in the 10+ level range. As Avoracio points out I don't know what a 16th level Ranger and Paladin would do against a Marilith besides die.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:32 am

The E6 range is no different at all most of the time. Particularly if you're using Tome classes. You have to pick up wands and potions and healing belts a little more, but nothing crazy.

After that, things become less predictable.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:59 am

What's D&D/PF like if you take out full casters?

Boring. Or short (TPK). Next question!

OgreBattle wrote:So no wizards, clerics, or druids but Bards are in. What's a good list of partial casters in 3.5?

Oh. It's still going to suck, but I guess you have:
[*]Rogues (not partial-casters, but UMD so liberal use of wands, scrolls and candles)
[*]Bards
[*]Paladins and Rangers don't count as having spellcasting because their spellcasting sucks
[*]Warlocks (not partial casters, but UMD, and also some Invisibility, Flight, and a Spell-Like Supernatural RTA blast)
[*]Hexblades are kind of lame but if they pick self-augmenting spells or spells that affect an area with a conjuration rather than forcing someone to make a save, they can vaguely get by
[*]Duskblades, as long as all you want to do is kill monsters and these monsters don't make a habit of Flying and crap (they *can* deal with that, but it costs them a spell-slot per round, and they can only handle one given difficulty at a time, so an Invisible Flying monster wins straight away)
[*]Weeaboo Fightan Magic (not actually partial-casters), as long as all you want to do is kill monsters and these monsters don't do fancy crap
[*]Binders might be able to hold their own depending on chosen pacts
[*]Totemists are a big maybe
[*]Psionics is so close to actual casting that I'll rule out the Psion and Wilder, but you have the Psychic Warrior as a big maybe

But you're still cutting out an awful lot of stuff, and then you have to either add bits to some of the remainder or cut out a whole swathe of the challenges they face.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:33 pm

deanruel87 wrote:I think it would be a Mystery Men scenario. The B-Team of 6th level casters like Bards, Summoners, Alchemists, and Duskblades would step up as the new crew who save the day.

Yes, let's pity the poor Summoner who's stuck with crappy spells like Maze, Gate, Simulacrum and Greater Planar Binding.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:56 pm

Book of Nine Swords classes and the Warlock, with a bit of optimization, should be able to handle level appropriate challenges all the way to 20. Does the Artificer count as a full caster? If not it could definitely work.

I find that for most published adventures the bar is actually pretty low, and it's that low on purpose. If you use the author's intended tactics for monsters than a smart second string party should be able to make it through with little problem.

Ghremdal · Post by **Ghremdal** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:17 pm

I am playing in a pathfinder campaign with a Magus, Inquisitor, Fighter, Ranger and Paladin. So far we have been able to overcome any encounter, but lack of mobility and control is starting to show.

However it is not as bad as I thought, and as new bling comes in we will be able to shore up defenses with magic items.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:33 pm

At levels 1 through 6, the major differences are that

Incorporeal Undead are outright unfair instead of just difficult;
Some More of the non-HP status ailments shift over into the "give up and go back to town" column.
More of the noncombat puzzles will be solved by Mearlgaxian creative argumentation with the MC than by "I have just the spell for this"

At 6th-10th level things get really hard, especially if the party isn't ranged specced. Even if everyone is a archer on a pegasi, then closet trolls, invisible foes, and missing out on Freedom of Movement and True Seeing mean that PCs will start dying, without easy access to resurrections

And above 10th level, not a whole lot changes as at high levels the normal game is always actually played as an exercise is subtle social contracts and stealth nerfs where the playgroup has to decide if they are avoiding, patching or actively embracing the broken bits. You can decide no one gets to abuse Wall of Iron wealth loop, you can use Wish Economy rules, or you can roll with everyone having all the gear -- but the entire group has to be on the same page about it. And different groups decide that one differently, to such an extent that the playgroup to playgroup power disparities at double digit levels actually overshadow the caster / noncaster power disparities at such levels.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:45 pm

With enough optimization, anything is possible. There was semi-recently a challenge to make a Monk that could defeat all the Elder Evils solo. There were several successful builds that accomplished this - definitely with the use of copious magic items (within WBL though), but not by being a scroll-Wizard - defeating them in a recognizably Monk way was one of the criteria.

So - it depends on how the characters are built. Like the book examples? They will die horribly, if MC uses more than a small fraction of the MM. Optimized for the lack of casters? They'll probably be fine.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:07 pm

Ice9 wrote:With enough optimization, anything is possible. There was semi-recently a challenge to make a Monk that could defeat all the Elder Evils solo. There were several successful builds that accomplished this - definitely with the use of copious magic items (within WBL though), but not by being a scroll-Wizard - defeating them in a recognizably Monk way was one of the criteria.

That sounds kind of interesting. Could you post a link?

I'm half-tempted to build a party of 4 level 10 PCs without full casters and see how well they can take on a module I've had sitting on my shelf for a while. Probably a taser sword magus, archer paladin, and some kind of inquisitor and ninja. If heavily optimized, they can probably clear the dungeon without much trouble, but something closer to the stock NPC Codex characters would probably face nasty odds.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:14 pm

The thread is:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285801

Builds start showing up at page 16 (shaikujin):
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... 01&page=16

Edit: Builds are sort of spread out. Rubik's is on page 25.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... 01&page=25

RobG · Post by **RobG** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:44 am

Josh Kablack's post is very well-stated. +1 from me.

Removing or preventing conditions and seeing through illusions by mid-levels are important. You can do this with magic items easily enough.

Things like fast travel and divinations are not because the Big Bad Guy tends to wait around for you to get there in the nick of time to stop him. Strange but true.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:05 am

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:18 am

ubernoob wrote:
Ice9 wrote:Builds start showing up at page 16 (shaikujin):
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... 01&page=16
How did he get the Elder Evil to come into his super special demiplane of I win forever?

He's using a spell that says "As long as you carry the acorn (and as long as the acorn is not stored in an extradimensional space like a bag of holding), you are considered to be standing under that oak tree's canopy" Then, he just plants the tree on that demiplane.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:33 am

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:47 am

I think he later reworked it to be less dubious. Possibly by becoming a native of that plane and then using a planar bubble effect?

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:56 am

I have considered putting full casters on a bard like progression and give them some extra spells a day just get rid of they super high powered stuff with having to ban hammer the class. I havent tried it yet and i assumed it would mean toning down the CR of encounters but the idea was let melee types feel like they had pants to wear for a bit longer

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:19 am

ckafrica wrote:I have considered putting full casters on a bard like progression and give them some extra spells a day just get rid of they super high powered stuff with having to ban hammer the class. I havent tried it yet and i assumed it would mean toning down the CR of encounters but the idea was let melee types feel like they had pants to wear for a bit longer

I'm really not sure wtf is wrong with all the complete fucking idiots that exist in the universe who think using the bard schedules for anything ever is a good idea.

Just make up your own fucking schedule. And you know what you will do? You will give them level 1 spells at level 1, because any level, even stupid level 1 where everyone sucks except barbarians, only being able to cast cantrips is basically saying "Go sit in the corner and wait until you are allowed to be a real character."

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:23 am

ckafrica wrote:I have considered putting full casters on a bard like progression and give them some extra spells a day just get rid of they super high powered stuff with having to ban hammer the class. I havent tried it yet and i assumed it would mean toning down the CR of encounters but the idea was let melee types feel like they had pants to wear for a bit longer

NO. NO. BAD CKAFRICA. BACK AWAY FROM THE SPELL TABLE AND STOP NERFING EVOCATION.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:35 am

The correct solution to, "people with actual abilities make melee dudes feel small in the pants," is not, "take away the actual abilities," it's, "give the melee dudes actual abilities; preferably ones that complement being melee dudes when they're in combat"

What, do you expect to melee (a) pestilence to death? Not without some actual abilities you won't!

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:49 am

TiaC wrote:I think he later reworked it to be less dubious. Possibly by becoming a native of that plane and then using a planar bubble effect?

On page 26:
"
CARRYING OVER PLANAR TRAITS Create an intelligent magic Braid Blade. It should already qualify as a creature, but give it the Flying enchant so that it's treated as an Animated Object and thus a creature
Cast a Planar Bubble (Planar Handbook Pg 102) on the Blade Blade. Bubble starts off as a 10 ft radius emanation centered on target
Apply Widen (SRD). Emanation area increased by 100% to 20 ft radius
Apply Sudden Widen (Miniatures Handbook Pg 28). Emanation area increased by 100% to 40 ft radius
Cast by a Recaster (Races of Eberron Pg 157) using Metamorphic spell (space). Emanation now has a 80 ft radius
Use the Braid Blade to secure hair, then wrap it up securely it with a cloth hairband
When covered with the hairband, line of effect is blocked, so only the wearer is affected by the Planar Bubble
When the situation demands, remove the cloth hairband to uncover the Blade Blade and unblock line of effect
This will result in an 80 ft radius zone of dead magic (Except for Psionics with the Good descriptor)

ON THE FLY ADJUSTMENT OF PLANAR TRAITS
We'll do this by using an acorn of far travels and re-positioning the oak tree
Grow an Oak tree on the plane
Polymorph it into a giant and cast Return to Nature to instantly reduce its' size enough to fit in a small flower pot
Dispel polymorph
Remove an acorn and cast Acorn of Far Travels
Hand pot to Buddy
Instruct Buddy to carry the tree to whichever location on the demiplane that corresponds to what type of magic I want nullified
Whenever I need, say I'm facing against a Deity, as a free action, tell Buddy to disable Deity powers
He will use a free action to "fall" to the corresponding location
This means that I can disable any magic, including Deitific powers, from affecting me (or even within 80 ft) as a free action"

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:13 am

You can't apply widen and sudden widen to the same spell.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:33 am

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What's D&D/PF like if you take out full casters?

What's D&D/PF like if you take out full casters?

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