That Special PC Glow for rules-heavy systems.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So, protagonists having a special je ne sais quoi that lets them seduce nobles and slay dragons and defeat armies despite not being structurally different than their non-protagonist peers is a common trope in stories and games. And it's understandable why it's so; the Law of Conservation of Detail means that you'll have to cut character development and gameplay geegaw for non-protagonists and basic probability dictates that the odds need to be stacked in the PCs' favor to have the serialized adventures want. What's more, while we want our protagonists to be special we don't exactly want them to be overly distinct. Being the only group of metahumans in the world with super speed and toughness while fighting mundane bandits at te top end irks people in a way that making the characters militiamen or Special Forces that have some kind of narratively invisible bonus doesn't.

On the other hand, it's obvious that a game can take it way too far. We kind of expect it for Rules Light games (because of that Conservation of Detail again) but it also breaks our sense of immersiveness and has a high chance of wrecking the game if the mechanics for PCs and other sundry protagonist characters are completely non-intersecting with that of NPCs.

So, in TGD's opinion, what's the right level to set That Special PC Glow? Me. I think that 3rd Edition D&D implemented it pretty well and is about the limit for that sort of thing. PCs and important NPCs basically get access to special classes, more favorable WBL tables, and of course better starting stats. And I think that a lot - hell, most - of the mechanics introduced in Unearthed Arcana took things too far. I appreciated the extra two feats from weaknesses, but anything more than that (like gestalt classes or bloodlines or item familiars) is too much.

[Lokathor]

The "Luminaries and Extras" (After Sundown) concept also does it really well. Extras literally don't get lucky, they never get turned into cool monsters (just violent beast things, if at all), and they die horribly from stray bullets, car crashes, ancient evil magic beams, and whatever else whenever an action sequence happens to get too near to them.

[A Man In Black]

it also breaks our sense of immersiveness and has a high chance of wrecking the game if the mechanics for PCs and other sundry protagonist characters are completely non-intersecting with that of NPCs.

This is not to derail, since you're obviously looking for solutions that reconcile these basic premises, but one solution is to just get over it. Either write into your setting that the PCs are Chosen Ones and therefore get their own special snowflake ruleset for doing things, or jump up a level of metanarrative and accept that the PCs are the protagonists and therefore get their own ruleset for protagonist stuff while everyone else isn't and thus doesn't.

[Sakuya Izayoi]

I think there's two kinds of exceptionalism for protagonists. One is just that protagonists are luckier and find themselves near death more often than dead than other people. A lot of games already simulate that. Where they tend to fall short is why, if spells like Wish exist, why are there still subsistence farmers, instead of having a society of cheap replication technology like The Next Generation. Hmmmm, now I want to play a Wizard World equivalent of TNG.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I think there's two kinds of exceptionalism for protagonists. One is just that protagonists are luckier and find themselves near death more often than dead than other people. A lot of games already simulate that. Where they tend to fall short is why, if spells like Wish exist, why are there still subsistence farmers, instead of having a society of cheap replication technology like The Next Generation. Hmmmm, now I want to play a Wizard World equivalent of TNG.

Maybe we should start a, "Stat out the Enterprise(-D?) as a setting in D&D", thread.

[Dogbert]

I'm not sure your question applies if you're talking specifically about zero-to-hero games as, by definition, z2h PCs do start as well... zero. In zero-to-hero tales, the protagonist is only able to rise above their (otherwise equally "classed" peers) by virtue of some plot device that automatically gives them special snowflake status and, thus, whatever it takes to hold the narrative weight thrown on their shoulders:

-Luke Skywalker was the only jedi in his trilogy (except for Episode 4, where he was a VAH, but that's not how fans remember him). Also he happened to be a functional demigod by virtue of daddy "midichlorians up to 11" Vader.
-Dai from Dragonquest: Dai no Daiboken is the last (barring dad) half-dragon in a world where half-dragons are stupidly overpowered.
-Satoshi from Pokemon starts his adventure with an overpowered Pikachu.
-Ichigo from Bleach starts the whole first season of adventures in muggle land where he was the de-facto only (pseudo)shinigami for miles, gaining "specialness" by default (which is not exactly bad, as it works for magical girls... also Wonderella said that "Default is the best fault to have").

Alas, most z2h games don't contemplate said plot devices for "induced specialness" for starting PCs. This goes double for DnD, where being a freshly rolled wizard amounts to being a fresh-out-of-college engineer in this day and age. Unless you're playing 2E or some basket weaver's game, RAW says lvl-1-whatevers are a-dime-a-dozen, you're nothing special, and people won't stop looking down on your Legion of Losers until at least the midgame.

You can simulate this in d20 starting your game at lvl 5 and lowballing it with PL-3 encounters except for "boss encounters" (which could be level-appropriate, if not higher) but, other than that, I fail to see many ways to "specialness" other than referring to games where PCs are by definition on a league of their own from the start (after all, why hitting nails with the butt of a screwdriver when you can use a hammer instead).

[OgreBattle]

Well ain't that what levels are for? PC's achieve higher levels than the society they left to go adventuring. Levels 1-2 are the trial of fire.

Conan gets by with GUTS and FRIENDSHIP. He has the GUTS to do daring things and help people who deserve/need help. When his back is against the wall then some good deed he accomplished comes back to reward him. He's a vessel of karmic justice in that way, punishing bad people who hurt others and making the world a better place.


If you need to, then "FATE/DESTINY" points are good. You start with some and spend them to do awesome things and earn more by accomplishing awesome goals.

[Cyberzombie]

Well ain't that what levels are for? PC's achieve higher levels than the society they left to go adventuring. Levels 1-2 are the trial of fire.

I've never seen a need to have NPC levels and PC levels. Monster level, PC level and NPC level should be the same power level. I think it only confuses the game where you put PCs on a different scale. If you want PCs to be stronger, make them higher level.

[OgreBattle]

Well ain't that what levels are for? PC's achieve higher levels than the society they left to go adventuring. Levels 1-2 are the trial of fire.

I've never seen a need to have NPC levels and PC levels. Monster level, PC level and NPC level should be the same power level. I think it only confuses the game where you put PCs on a different scale. If you want PCs to be stronger, make them higher level.

Yeah, that is what I meant. I didn't mean for "PC levels" to be a different thing, I meant Levels as Levels that tell you what level anyone, be they PC, NPC, or Monster, is at in the world.

NOw I'm going to skim TGD's archives for "monsters that follow PC creation rules" threads where we try and make Fiends something you can level up in.

[Zaranthan]

I find the whole "start off higher level than the unwashed masses" idea to be pretty narratively simple. We still describe level 1 and 2 characters and challenges with the system so that we can write them into our backstory, which is why some people suggest new players start at level 1 just to internalize the experience. After that little training adventure, though, you don't keep doing that. Die Hard didn't start with John McClane enrolling in the police academy, it started when he was already a grizzled ex-cop. The camera just doesn't start rolling until freaky shit starts happening.

[TheNotoriousAMP]

The problem with zero to hero stories without a special power is that fiction needs to make sense. In fiction land, the special snowflake stuff comes from magical powers and the like. In the real world, it usually 1- comes from having an at least middle class upbringing with families who highly value education (see: Kim Il Sung, Lenin, Reagan, Barrack Obama, Napoleon, ect) and 2- insanely good memories and discipline (Mike Huccabee, Mobutu, any African leader really). There's a reason why people who rise to power from nothing are usually brought under someone's wing at an early age, you can tell that there's something special about them, usually their drive to succeed.

Personally, the best way I find to do zero to hero stories, without using stuff like fate chips, edge, or luck, is to have the characters be noticed early on by powerful people and taken on as proteges. They should be in positions where they are noticed from an early point onwards, which gives them a serious edge in advancement. That being said, this is basically how it already happens in games like DnD so I'm not saying anything new.

[fectin]

A lot of stories are "ordinary people, in extraordinary circumstances." So yes, any given dirt farmer absolutely could persuade the king to [whatever], or turn the tide of battle, or befriend the legendary platypus. Your character just happened to have the opportunity. And really, that doesn't need the PC glow: George Washington didnt somehow bend physics to his will, but he still had much, much more impact than most other people at the time.

[violence in the media]

A lot of stories are "ordinary people, in extraordinary circumstances." So yes, any given dirt farmer absolutely could persuade the king to [whatever], or turn the tide of battle, or befriend the legendary platypus. Your character just happened to have the opportunity. And really, that doesn't need the PC glow: George Washington didnt somehow bend physics to his will, but he still had much, much more impact than most other people at the time.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

[PoliteNewb]

I always found "is higher level than 50-90% of humanity" to be sufficient, to make PCs feel special enough (which doesn't need to be all that special, honestly). Of course, this requires you to posit that most of the world is pretty low level (anywhere from 0th to 2nd, for instance), but I have no problems with that. Making 8th level NPCs all over the place is practically begging for DM penis characters.

Starting at 1st level is what you should do for zero-to-hero campaigns. If you want to play a campaign where your character begins even reasonably competent, they should be 3rd level, minimum.

[Roog]

I always found "is higher level than 50-90% of humanity" to be sufficient, to make PCs feel special enough (which doesn't need to be all that special, honestly).

Doesn't that mean that 10-40% of humanity is at the PC's level or higher, and mean that unless you are only playing levels 3-7 that there are 8th level (or higher) NPCs all over the place?

[Meikle641]

A lot of stories are "ordinary people, in extraordinary circumstances." So yes, any given dirt farmer absolutely could persuade the king to [whatever], or turn the tide of battle, or befriend the legendary platypus. Your character just happened to have the opportunity. And really, that doesn't need the PC glow: George Washington didnt somehow bend physics to his will, but he still had much, much more impact than most other people at the time.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA

[Dogbert]

Mind you, while browsing the PFSRD I stumbled upon PF's "mythic rules" which look like just what Lago was talking about: Rules for inducing special snowflake status on the PCs so they were more than just lvl-1-whatevers. Special snowflake rules for feats, class features, and even "awakening moment" if you want to pretend you're Fable's hero.

Now, yes, you're still a lvl-1 character and an Alip will still hand you your butt on a silver platter, but at least not as badly as a regular lvl-1 character, and in fact you play by a different set of rules as the rest of lvl-1-whatevers.