TOP 3 Badly designed games: Shadowrun and... ?

silva · Post by **silva** » Sat May 03, 2014 12:38 pm

I know Shadowrun is an obvious contender here, but what else ? Ive heard Rifts is specially bad too, as is FATAL, but dont know the details. AD&D and Rolemaster ? Cyborg Commando ? That Gygax rpg with weird name ? So, what would the rank of top 3 worst games ever designed look like ?

EDIT: please, lets try to keep the personal insults out this time.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat May 03, 2014 12:47 pm

[attempt to derail troll thread from obvious troll]

Contender:

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat May 03, 2014 1:05 pm

Shadowrun only becomes a contender once you factor in those chucklefucks who thought Stormfront and 5th edition were good ideas. Shadowrun's a lost cause but on the balance the franchise pulled off enough interesting things over its run that it's still a better contributor to the world of ttrpgs than a lot of games I could name. I say that not to excuse Shadowrun's faults but to point out that having your game be chock full of broken and appalling shit that must be excised is a sadly common trait in the world of rpgs.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat May 03, 2014 1:26 pm

erik wrote:[attempt to derail troll thread from obvious troll]

Contender:

Wait... where do you start?

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Sat May 03, 2014 1:57 pm

silva wrote:I know Shadowrun is an obvious contender here, but what else ? Ive heard Rifts is specially bad too, as is FATAL, but dont know the details. AD&D and Rolemaster ? Cyborg Commando ? That Gygax rpg with weird name ? So, what would the rank of top 3 worst games ever designed look like ?

EDIT: please, lets try to keep the personal insults out this time.

First of all, fuck you and the barrel of cocks you rolled in on.

Second of all, worst designed game? Nobody really talks about truly poorly designed games. Nobody even gives a fuck about FATAL, RaHoWa or TimeCube: The RPG. Or Gygax's Lejendary Adventures. Those works are shit with no redeeming features and no traction, so we don't bother talking about them.

RIFTS, for example, has always been a completely, utterly fucked system. But there is mild amusement to be had in character building, and the stting, concepts and artwork are pure crack for our inner 12-year olds. Also, KS is insane in amusing ways. Thus, we talk about RIFTS.

D&D 3rd and Shadowrun have enormous traction, and they contain elements of good design; that's why the bad parts make us so angry. Also, the steady slide into shittyness of later editions (D&D 4+, SR 4 after the core book) is obviously more of an issue than some neckbeard publishing yet another shitty fantasy heartbreaker.

TL;DR: We hate because we love.

mlangsdorf · Post by **mlangsdorf** » Sat May 03, 2014 3:26 pm

silva wrote:I know Shadowrun is an obvious contender here, but what else ? Ive heard Rifts is specially bad too, as is FATAL, but dont know the details. AD&D and Rolemaster ? Cyborg Commando ? That Gygax rpg with weird name ? So, what would the rank of top 3 worst games ever designed look like ?

Spirit of the Century.
Dungeon World.
Apocalypse World.

You're welcome.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat May 03, 2014 3:31 pm

Worst designed doesn't mean anything on it's own. Shadowrun is about 40% utter shit when it comes to game mechanics, but the other 60% is between average to the best the RPG industry has ever seen.

That makes it effectively infinity times better designed than *World, because there is zero actual design present in star world. So when you take the quality parts of Shadowrun and throw out the shit parts you have something with actual value, whereas *World provides literally zero value for your money because making shit up already exists.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sat May 03, 2014 3:34 pm

I've the notion that you created this thread in response to Cyberzombie and I's discussion. I don't really appreciate you making a thread to use it for a misguided agenda against the den for whatever raisin.

That said, I'd think 5th edition D&D deserves to go down as one of the worst RPG's in history (due to scope which it'll likely flop and terrabad stories it'll tell).

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:29 pm

I'm going to throw in World Of Synnibar. Behold a fan-created superior version of its character sheet and despair.

Shadowrun is not even remotely close to being a member of the three worst games of all time.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:42 pm

erik wrote:[attempt to derail troll thread from obvious troll]

Contender:

That's bullshit, I don't see the NFL anywhere on there. This thread is as good as any to discuss the serious issue of "Has u ever RPG'd with a person of colour?"

Has u?

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sat May 03, 2014 7:04 pm

silva wrote:EDIT: please, lets try to keep the personal insults out this time.

Fuck you and your blatant trolling, multi forum shilling, and thread shitting. I believe you gain sexual arousal from making threads about roleplaying games and then shilling for apocalypse world. Fuck you, everyone here knows your questions aren't looking for answers and your posts are dishonest and valueless.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sat May 03, 2014 7:48 pm

If I climbed up to the top of your ego and jumped down to your IQ I'd kill myself.

Okay that aside, how the FUCK can you be so stupid and arrogant as to actually put games on the "top 3 worst evar" list that you haven't even read unless you're intentionally trying to troll?

That's it. Silva's going on the block list.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Sat May 03, 2014 8:13 pm

Okay, I really do have the impression that Silva started this thread so that people would shout "Apocalypse World!" back at him and he can have another ten pages of thread to try to contend that AW is actually a great game and it's YOU that suck.

Sakuya Izayoi · Post by **Sakuya Izayoi** » Sat May 03, 2014 8:41 pm

I'll attempt a post that has nothing to do with either Apocalypse World or Shadowrun, since I refuse to feed the troll.

So, given 3 choices (I refuse to have one determined for me), I pick:

1. FATAL - Beyond the jokes about Anal Circumference is a big pile of pointless tables. There's no actual resolution systems or special abilities that even let you do anything in this game. No one who's attempted an ironic session of this game has done anything but roll a character and laugh at their stats.

2. Dungeons & Dragons 4e - I don't dislike this game for what it wants to be (an RPG meant to appeal to video game fans). I dislike it for being bad at it.

3. Dark Heresy - Call of Cthulhu in space is stupid in a setting where supermen in ridiculous power armor eat Cthulhu for breakfast. % roll under in this kind of genre can go perform tests of Anal Circumference upon itself.

silva · Post by **silva** » Sat May 03, 2014 9:28 pm

TheFlatline wrote:Okay that aside, how the FUCK can you be so stupid and arrogant as to actually put games on the "top 3 worst evar" list that you haven't even read unless you're intentionally trying to troll?

I dont have to read a game to know it has problems. The bazillion online reviews and discussions available allow me to take a very good picture of most games out there and their problems (or qualities), like Rolemaster over-reliance on table-consulting, Vampire the Masquerade fluff-crunch schizophreny, or Riddle of Steel clunkyness out of combat.

I cite Shadowrun in the title because its the most badly designed game Ive personally played. But Ive heard of others, and would like to know how they compare to SR. Also, have in mind that "badly designed" != "I dont like it", because I do like playing Shadowrun, even if its crap. Though I know its out of liking its setting and also familiarity - if presented to the game nowadays, no cool setting in the world would make me play it.

Sakuya wrote:2. Dungeons & Dragons 4e - I don't dislike this game for what it wants to be (an RPG meant to appeal to video game fans). I dislike it for being bad at it.

Funny, Ive always thought D&D4 managed to be relativelly successful at emulating MMOs on tabletop. And even if thats not the case, does it really have lots of broken or unnecessarily clunky sub-systems ala Shadowrun ? Also never got this picture out of reviews and discussions.

*Also, just the fact that D&D4 tries to emulate MMOs is enough to beat Shadowrun, IMO, since its proof it has some clear design goal, something Shadowrun lacks entirelly. What are Shadowrun design goals ? Good luck in finding out.

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Sat May 03, 2014 10:42 pm

silva wrote: I dont have to read a game to know it has problems. The bazillion online reviews and discussions available allow me to take a very good picture of most games out there and their problems (or qualities), like Rolemaster over-reliance on table-consulting, Vampire the Masquerade fluff-crunch schizophreny, or Riddle of Steel clunkyness out of combat.

Are you actually being serious? AW got some good reviews, and it is a hate crime against RPGs. All a "review" is is some dude telling his opinion on something. There have been a bazillion bad reviews of it here, but that doesn't seem to deter you.
So, what makes you decide who's review to follow? As far as I can tell, you've got a pretty arbitrary and asinine system for sorting that shit out.

For fucks sake, I've even read some good reviews for FATAL. Does that make it a good game?

You're stupidity level rises with each post you make.

silva · Post by **silva** » Sat May 03, 2014 11:11 pm

ACOS, the only place AW is viewed in a bad light is here. While Shadowrun is acknowledged as a problematic piece of design all over the internet (it was even a local joke here in Brasil, regarded as one of the most confusing and unnecessarily complex games available ).

See the difference ?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sat May 03, 2014 11:17 pm

Stinktopus · Post by **Stinktopus** » Sat May 03, 2014 11:59 pm

silva wrote:the only place AW is viewed in a bad light is here.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun May 04, 2014 12:18 am

silva wrote:
*Also, just the fact that D&D4 tries to emulate MMOs is enough to beat Shadowrun, IMO, since its proof it has some clear design goal, something Shadowrun lacks entirelly. What are Shadowrun design goals ? Good luck in finding out.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Sun May 04, 2014 12:22 am

OgreBattle wrote:
erik wrote:[attempt to derail troll thread from obvious troll]

Contender:

That's bullshit, I don't see the NFL anywhere on there. This thread is as good as any to discuss the serious issue of "Has u ever RPG'd with a person of colour?"

Has u?

I'm a person of color who RPG's

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sun May 04, 2014 12:33 am

1. Responding to Silva. His multi-forum copyppasta spamming and self-contradictory "revealations" are only understandable if he is a paid shill. They are under no conditions excusable.

2. Exalted. This game fails at every design goal aside from crazy go nuts PC power level. Amazingly each edition moves it further from hitting those goals.

3. The Imagine RPG. Complexity for complexity's sake. This is unfortuneately unplayable, so it doesn't get hipster cred and ironic sessions the way FATAL and Synibbar do.

4. Palladium's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles first edition. I'd call chargen a war crime, but that would be unduly harsh to many infamous war criminals.

Emerald · Post by **Emerald** » Sun May 04, 2014 12:51 am

silva wrote:I dont have to read a game to know it has problems. The bazillion online reviews and discussions available allow me to take a very good picture of most games out there and their problems (or qualities)

silva, page 8 of the *-World thread wrote:It would be rather easy if half the people in the discussion actually read or play the damn game, you know. I bet we would not be having this discussion in the first place.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Sun May 04, 2014 2:28 am

oh, look, 4e tries to emulate MMOs. haven't heard that in years. please tell me more, silva-sensei.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sun May 04, 2014 2:47 am

Wiseman wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:
erik wrote:[attempt to derail troll thread from obvious troll]

Contender:

That's bullshit, I don't see the NFL anywhere on there. This thread is as good as any to discuss the serious issue of "Has u ever RPG'd with a person of colour?"

Has u?
I'm a person of color who RPG's

I can vouch for that. And we were both turned onto RPing by a black dude.

The Gaming Den

TOP 3 Badly designed games: Shadowrun and... ?

TOP 3 Badly designed games: Shadowrun and... ?

Re: TOP 3 Badly designed games: Shadowrun and... ?

Re: TOP 3 Badly designed games: Shadowrun and... ?

Re: TOP 3 Badly designed games: Shadowrun and... ?