[OSSR]World of Darkness: Mummies

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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History »

Should Have / Would Have
Making Mummies Ain't That Hard

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The Mummy speaks!

Music: Mummy Alives Theme - Metal Cover
FrankT:

So a number of people have posed the question “What are Mummies about?” and honestly the answer as far as these products go is pretty much “Nothing.” But that creates a related question, one of “What could Mummies be about?” And the answer there is of course “Lots of stuff.” In order to be an effective Mummy RPG, it has to be playable as a game, enticing as a story, and suggestive of longer campaigns. There are plenty of directions you could have gone and made for a playable experience. Basically, it needed to hit the following points:
  • The game needs a short pitch that you can give to someone unfamiliar with the game (or the World of Darkness) to get them to be willing to try it out.
  • The game needs a place for episodic adventures with minimal required buy-in so that you can run one-shot adventures without needing tailored pre-made characters.
  • The game needs a world that has stuff in it for people to expand upon and explore, such that they would like to continue telling stories in the world and possibly even buy more books.
  • The game needs a place for longer character arcs and quests so that there can be year-long campaigns and possibly even LARPs that last for over a decade.
So to that end, and to do an endzone dance at the culmination of this review, we present ten concepts that could have been Mummy if in fact someone had pitched a game anyone wanted to play. Each option is presented as a mini-pitch for the game, obviously the whole thing would be somewhere between 80 and 250 pages and hopefully has a playable system attached to it. That could be because someone got off their ass and made a World of Darkness corebook that wasn't shit, or because there is a playable game inside the covers of the actual Mummy book itself. Either way, really.
AncientH:

Most of these are based off of existing properties and concepts because, frankly, that is what people want. Nobody bought a Mummy book and expected vampires, unless you've set them up to expect that ahead of time. And while ideally these are stand-alone, it's nice to think that they could tie in to the World of Darkness at least as well as the shitsmear that is Mummy e1-3.
FrankT:

The Mummy Option
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Seriously, your game is called Mummy, how can this not be your first option? The characters are immortal sorcerers from various cultures and time periods who have been out of circulation for a very long time. Awoken in the modern world, they find that they have melodramatic plot hooks connecting them to the past lives of various random people and relics scattered around the present day. So you strongly feel friendship, hatred, or even love for people who are actually having new lives with new memories and don't know you from Adam. Also, because your companion Mummies lived at different times, they have different melodramatic hooks into some of the same people based on things that happened in yet other lives.

You have to balance interacting with reincarnations of people you feel strongly about to unlock your past life memories and powers with the ever present danger of getting locked into the cycle of repeated tragedy that put you out of commission for a thousand years and more in a bog or tomb in the first place.
AncientH:

Highlander Option
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You are immortal. Inside you are the blood of kings (or gods). Having your origins in ancient Egypt, you have loved, lost, and battled your way down the centuries, mastering different skills, rarely staying in one place for very long lest your neighbors notice and turn against you. Besides being eternally in your prime, you are mostly immune to the ravages of death, save for a few specific methods. You often involve yourself with mortal conflicts, pursuing your own interests, but your true allies and enemies are your fellow immortals, some of whom have fallen to madness over the millenniums, others who are frighteningly sane but who nurse ancient grudges as a meaning for existence, and some others whose goals simply do not align with your own - and they alone know how to kill you, and perhaps to take your power as their own. More and more these days, however, they must be circumspect - it has grown harder to pass among the mortal masses, and their immortality is not the kind that can be shared, though some mortals have tried to steal it. Most immortals lead transitory lives, others are actively hunted.

In a WoD contest these could be vampires who diablerized a god and have been transformed, freed of the limitations of the curse (but sought out by others who wish their power); or they may be like Tarzan, who received his immortality through a blood transfusion with another immortal. Theirs is a patient society, where new members emerge but rarely, but old and forgotten elders crop up unexpectedly. Many immortals congregate together, pooling their resources, pursuing joint goals, and simply sharing the company of the few others on the planet that can understand and relate to them.

Highlander chronicles are essentially a sequence of boss fights; a powerful Immortal has a goal that the PC Immortals would be against, and the PCs either get in the way (and have to be dealt with), or are arbitrarily attacked to prevent them from getting in the way (and when that fails, they have to be dealt with). The powerful Immortal has enough mortal followers and other immortals that the PCs can fight their way up the food chain, so to speak.
FrankT:

Mummies Alive! Option
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You are ancient mummy guardians who are woken up because there are ancient evils that are doing their evil dirty work once again. The various bad dudes want to steal life force from various people who are the reincarnations of important Pharoahs and priests and shit, so you have to run around and protect random civilians from very specific supernatural assassination attempts. So you have to repeatedly either successfully bodyguard these people without them knowing you're around, or somehow convince them that you are the good guys and they should accept your help.

Presumably you have some sort of star charts or scrying pools or something that give you the power to find out who is up for potential kidnapping and sacrifice by team evil next (and for what time period).
AncientH:

Pyramids/Small Gods Option
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In the wilderness there are ancient, invisible, intangible things; call them spirits, call them demons, call them gods, but they feed on the beliefs of humanity, and when that belief is strong and focused through rituals they gain power. Through the ages these beings have spoken to the madmen and fanatics, and set themselves up as figures of belief - behind every shrine, every temple, every saint, every god-king has been one of these things...waxing strong, warring with their own kind, forming pantheons, and at last slowly diminishing as they are forgotten, their temples abandoned, the shrines desecrated, and new gods are raised. And in the ancient era, there were kings and queens, deified before or after death, placed in tombs and monuments designed for their eternal afterlife in the staunch belief that they would live again.

Unfortunately for them, they were right.

A cataclysmic event has occurred - a shift in the nature of reality - and all the stored belief of humanity has been let loose. Everything anyone ever believed in is coming true. The gods of ancient Egypt battle across the sky, the demons beneath your bed whisper and grab...and the dead rise. The god-kings of ancient days have risen, their withered corpses breaking forth from forgotten tombs and museums; burning with power, crippled with the injuries of decomposition. Yet, because they are almost gods themselves, they are some of the few with the power to battle against the gods and monsters that walk the cursed earth, and empowered by the belief of their people and descendants, they may yet preserve what remains of the world.

Think of it like a zombie mummy apocalypse - except the zombies are the heroes. And you're the mummies. Fight the monsters, figure out how to save the world (probably by capping off the pyramid or something equally useful). You can't die, but if you lose any more parts life can suck a whole lot more.
FrankT:

Creatures of Light and Darkness Option
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The player characters are space gods based on ancient myths. It all takes place in the fucking future, and you play people who were mummified today but are running around a thousand years from now. You manipulate time, throw black holes at people, destroy planets, shit gets crazy. Your enemies are similarly overpowered, and have a plan that involves eradicating the concept of time or something.

When you die (not “if”), you get reincarnated, sometimes by praying to yourself. When you fail to save the universe (not “if”), you go back in time and try again.
AncientH:

Living Mummy Option
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You lived in ancient Egypt. You may have been a servant or a prince, a farmer or a priest, a magician or a scribe. You lived, and you died, and you were mummified - or perhaps you were simply buried alive; the details are lost to you. Thousands of years later, perhaps during the Victorian Age, perhaps in modern times, you were unravelled...and woke up, alive.

Now you are an ancient soul in a modern age - mortal, at least as such things go, but after rehabilitation you can move again, you have learned the language of this new century, and begun to acclimate yourself. As a sort of time traveler, you are of interest by many groups - some of which wish to deify you, others of which wish to control or exploit you for their own ends. For yourself, you are simply adrift from your time, with few familiar touchstones...and the lingering mystery of your resurrection. Already, there are rumors of others like yourself - others who have disappeared. Some kidnapped by cannibal cultists, others taken by a conspiracy of the Resurrected.

Because whoever mummified you in the first place - they still exist. You are their early experiments. Troublemakers, rebels, perhaps merely convenient subjects...and now that you have awoken, they see you as a threat to their own long unfurling plans. Dare you oppose them? Similar sequence to Highlander, except in this case you stage it as a series of mysteries - each investigation brings you closer to solving the mystery of your Resurrection.
FrankT:

Stargate Option
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There are dimensional portals that take you to shard realms that are the dominions of powerful and jealous ancient mummies from various cultures that rule these shard realms as god kings. Your group of young upstart mummies and heroes who are reincarnated people from Egypt, Aymarra, Nordia, or China can activate ancient artifacts to let you explore these worlds and overthrow the god kings with the power of modern weaponry and friendship speeches.

There are various humans living under the mummy gods in the shard worlds, and you can free them and recruit them into your army of liberation.
AncientH:

Bubba Ho Tep Option
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Thousands of miles from home, in a strange land called America, you have awoken...and you are hungry. Separated from your tomb, your talismans, and your canopic jars, the rituals designed sustain your spirit in the afterlife have almost failed, and in desperation your spirit has reunited with its flesh, to bring movement back to the withered limbs. To sustain yourself, you must feed on the souls of the living as you seek to recover or replace what you have lost.

Similar concept to vampire, except you have Appearance 0 and you drink souls instead of blood. It is a strange time, and you are out of sync with it. You really want to get back to the afterlife, with shabti servants can til your fields and you can dwell in marble palaces for all eternity, instead of being stuck in this dessicated shell. To do that, you and your fellow mummies need to gather together or make enough tomb goods...and that means dealing with a gothic punk world of redneck vampires that travel by night in motorhomes and sleep by day, or backwoods werewolves and inbred witchfolk...any of whom may seek to hinder you, and of whom may be an ally in the restoration of your proper afterlife. The PCs are friends or relations in the same family working to restore the family tombs.

You could have a whole society of mummies with a pecking order working for their promised eternal afterlife, a sort of blue collar class of the Damned - (like here) - and some mummies are tomb robbers who steal what the need from other mummies, and some are merchants that trade for it (including some highly questionable favors), or whose tombs have been seized by rivals.
FrankT:

Pharaoh's Curse Option
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Also called the Friday the 13th: The Series option. There were a bunch of cursed treasures that were buried around the world, and tomb robbers and archaeologists dug them up. Now the stars are right, and the fact that the cursed items aren't in warded vaults anymore is “bad.” You're a bunch of tomb guardians who had laid dormant so long that you were unable to rouse yourself to stop the initial desecrations. But now that evil magic is being pumped into the world and causing crazy shit to go down, you have also been powered up and return to human form and a semblance of life.

So you have episodic adventures which are each centered around an ancient cursed object, which either turns a normal human into a psycho killer or attracts evil monsters who want it or both. Your task is to retrieve each item and put it safely in a warded vault and not let the evil magic break free or continue to cause havoc on the world of the living. Ultimately, this can work up to fighting one of the various global evils that are responsible for their being a bunch of cursed demon-filled artifacts in the first place.
AncientH:

Mummified Cat Option
All cats have nine lives; you had the good fortune to be mummified during a past incarnation, and contact with that mummy has awoken to you your past lives...and all the lore and powers you gained during that time. Some cats may only be on their second life, and relatively weak (but able to reincarnate 7 more times); elders may be on their last life, but able to recall the powers from all their previous 8 incarnations.

As the Awoken, you have a supernatural awareness and sensitivity; you can travel in dream to Ulthar, walk through shadows to distant times, enjoy the confidence of wizards and witches as their trusted (and pampered) familiars, spy the rites of necromancers and devil-worshippers... they are the natural warriors and generals of cat-dom, who act out against the drowners of kittens and the cruelty of poisoners, as well as the stranger threats of the Cats from Saturn, ancient cat demons, pet cemeteries awash with necromantic energies and the like.

It's a fantasy cat game with vampire-like blood potency mechanics; the dogs can be werewolves and the Cats from Saturn are like vicissitude-meets-feline-HIV; as the Awoken you are the guardians of catkind, and you go on missions to save the kittens and gain revenge against dogs and stuff. Campaigns/chronicles tend to settle around stopping major threats, like a human cult trying to resurrect a cat-headed hybrid mummy dedicated to an evil aspect of Bubastis or a mad stray named Cathulhu that's trying to open the gate and allow the Cats from Saturn access to this world.
FrankT:

Basically, this shit ain't hard. Egyptian shit is cool looking. Immortality, reincarnation, and resurrection are good lead-ins for stories. Things have a number of excellent excuses to start in media res, and since everyone had something conventionally fatal happen to them there are plenty of reasons for characters to want revenge and/or atonement. It shouldn't be difficult to pitch this in a way that stands up as a game and a story.
AncientH:

I'm running a bit on empty at this point. This wasn't as bad as some of the other books we've reviewed...I guess from a game perspective it's all about the road not taken. There are so many ways White Wolf could have done the Mummy books and concept right, and so many ways they did the Mummy concept wrong...and in many ways, it's indicative of how badly they handled the old World of Darkness. It is so telling that with all the mistakes they made, the terrible mechanics and weird setting nonsense and horrible railroady decisions and inability to keep anything straight...and yet, and yet. There is something to World of Darkness games where you feel like if only it was done again, from the beginning, with more thought and insight instead of a hamfisted and faltering effort...but, that way lies madness and writing your own RPGs.
Last edited by Ancient History on Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prak »

I tried to watch Mummies Alive. 90s cartoons do not age gracefully. That, or ignorance of tropes is bliss.

Also, this is making me want to tackle a Grand Unified WoD rewrite, starting with a core book, maybe something like "Supernatural in World of Darkness" (not that Supernatural is actually far off...) and then splats as supplement books that actually have a core to refer to.

Also also: if someone ran the Mummified Cat Option, I would so play the hell out of that.
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Post by Stahlseele »

That was an really enjoyable read with some great ideas in there O.o
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Post by Username17 »

Cleaning up the World of Darkness to be playable with an ensemble group is the kind of thing everyone wants, but actually doing it is going to necessarily piss some people off. Basically you got a couple of problems warring with each other, which we should probably name.
  • Special Snow Flakes. There is a lot of simple clutter in World of Darkness. The Daughters of Cacophony, The Tlacique, Old Clan Tzimisce, City Gangrel, and so on. These were just some author attempting to redo a concept that had already happened. And whether they did that concept better or worse than the original, every time that happened you had at least one more piece of extraneous garbage hanging around. And that's just Vampire. If you go through all the lines, then you have shit like the Siberian minor tribes of Werewolves and the Sorcerer families and shit. Even in the basic book, there are 17 tribes of Werewolves, and there's no way in fuck you can tell me that they couldn't cover everything they really need to in 5.

    All that clutter makes the game worse. But every time you clean some of it up, you're retconning away some peoples' actual characters. With some of the more obscure crap you might not be torching the character sheets of very many players, but you're taking a dump on someone's birthday cake even so.
  • Linear Werewolves/Quadratic Geists. Mages are, quite simply, ricockulous. Their power level is over nine thousand, and everybody knows it. It's bad. You can't make a playable ensemble game when one player gets Angel Summoner and another player gets BMX Bandit. This is obvious and well known, but the fact is that Mage fans are Mage fans in no small part because they like being massively more powerful than other people in the setting. Mage fans are actually powergaming little shits for the most part, and if you take their toys away and make them play at the level of the other children they get really sad. If they were willing to be only somewhat more powerful than other characters, they would play Clan Tremere.

    The power levels are part of the brand identity of each line. Werewolf players completely fucking balked at the idea of not being massively better than everyone else at physical combat and WTF was DOA before people even figured out the book didn't have any plot hooks in it. As soon as you told Werewolf players they weren't going to be combat gods anymore they just noped the fuck out. So while everyone will, on sober reflection, admit that a massive power rebalancing is necessary, no one wants to actually be on the receiving end of that balancing.
  • President of the Anime Club Everyone wants to be important. If you put all the supernaturals into the same census, then you're stuck between either having way too few vampires to have proper vampire politics going on, or way too many supernaturals total for the world to be in any way recognizable. You can kind of work around all that by having Vampries and Wizards play politics together, but now you've set fire to all the political webs that World of Darkness described.

    You need a big enough pie in supernatural politics for it to make sense that you're bothering with it (unlike nWoD), and you need for there to be enough supernaturals invested in it that it feels like politics rather than a Thanksgiving domestic dispute. And since none of the previous World of Darkness lines actually successfully walked that line in a way that would allow all the various supernatural types to sit at the table, you have to start from scratch. And that means scrapping almost everything that fans of the world of darkness actually liked.

    Edit:
  • A Whole World of Darkness: White Wolf has tended to focus almost exclusively on North America, Northern Europe, and the Mediterranean. The world is in fact bigger than that. It's bigger than those three places plus Japan. In a proper reboot, care should be expended to cover South America, Subsaharan Africa, India, China, Southeast Asia, and Oceania. That's a lot of material, and it's material which White Wolf has historically been extremely embarrassing about when they attempted to cover it at all. So not only are you going to have to cut a bunch of stuff that various niches of the fandom like just because of redundancy, but you're going to need to cut even more material to make room for untested global outreach content.

    The most interesting part of Mummy: the Resurrection by far was the discussion of Chilean and Chinese mummification practices. And you're going to want and need to include some stuff like that. But these new foreign groups are going to need backstories. And they are going to need new backstories, because the backstories for foreign groups tended to be racist and stupid when they existed at all.
World of Darkness needed a reboot. Which it did get. But it needed a reboot with a world bible and line interconnectedness and a metaplot that touched on all the players. Which of course, it did not get.

-Username17
Last edited by Username17 on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Can't you get the 'A Whole World of Darkness' and 'President of the Anime Club' problems to sort of take care of each other if you solve the former? I mean, judging from demographics WoD only really cares to cover about 1/5th of the planet's population. If you cut the number of organizations in half (which judging from the Special Snow Flakes complaint I think that you can easily do) and spread them out more geographically then there's a lot more pie for the surviving organizations to fight over.

Also, WRT Mages complaining about not being the most overpowered splat... do you think that a WoD remake should just go 'fuck 'em' and excise it entirely or attempt to lure them in with a completely remade paradigm? I feel that witches, necromancers, magicians, and super-scientists do have a place in urban fantasy among the rest of the monsters. Harry Potter, Dresden, and Call of Cthulhu happened. However, the actual Mage fluff and aesthetics is... not like that. I'm wondering if you'll be able to attract a replacement fanbase if you tell the Mage grognards to fuck off or if they're just too ingrained into the demographics of WoD to easily shed.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

ED: Double Post
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Longes »

Apparently Web of Faith is not quite what Frank said it is.
The Web of Faith was born during the early years of Islam. For centuries, the magi of the Middle East had to contend with rapacious djinn and scattered infernalist cults. With the advent of Islam and the Prophet Muhammad, the tide began to turn against these forces of chaos. An increasing number of mages converted to the new religion, including members of surviving Egyptian Thoth cults, the dervish sects, and especially the Ahl-i-Batin, who saw Islam as a natural extension of their Doctrine of Unity. A few Batini even went so far as to claim they inspired Islam, but most dismiss these claims.

El Assad al Gabaar, the first Ahl-i-Batin archmage to convert to Islam, led an alliance of mages against al-Malek al-Majun ibn Iblis, the last and most terrible of the Devil Kings. After a battle lasting for seven days, al-Malek was killed and his body decapitated, burnt to ash and sealed away until the end of time. Angels themselves were said to have wiped the infernal fortress of Irem off the map. Afterwards, the leaders of the Ahl-i-Batin convinced the Righteous Ghazi, House of the Crescent Moon, Dervish sects, Sheikha and other Muslim mages to bind together their Nodes and Chantries into a network that spanned the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia.

Over time, both the network itself and the alliance would spread until it spanned the the Islamic world.
So it's just a magical network made by Ahl-i-Batini. Which may or may not have later become the Internet.
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Post by Username17 »

Longes, I honestly have no idea what you think you accomplished by that post. The Web of Faith doesn't make sense in the other books it is in, and isn't portrayed the same way from book to book. In Mummy: the Resurrection, it is a network of power sites that use the faith of the three great monotheistic religions to do... stuff. And yet, some of the power sites are shit like the Sphinx, because that's just as good as Islam or Judaism, amiright? And the mages who originally made it were face stabbed, and the Mummies piggy back off of it to survive. And that's why you aren't allowed to leave the Middle East for very long. Also, go fuck yourself.

It also doesn't make sense and is presented differently in the other Year of the Scarab books in ways that also don't make sense, and it doesn't matter.

Anyway...
Lago wrote:Can't you get the 'A Whole World of Darkness' and 'President of the Anime Club' problems to sort of take care of each other if you solve the former? I mean, judging from demographics WoD only really cares to cover about 1/5th of the planet's population. If you cut the number of organizations in half (which judging from the Special Snow Flakes complaint I think that you can easily do) and spread them out more geographically then there's a lot more pie for the surviving organizations to fight over.
It is true that after we purge the minor and bizarrely racist shit like Ebony Kingdoms, about 80% of the planet (in both population and land area) is essentially unaccounted for. Superficially, you could create a series of books where each region has a central political division and a vaguely manageable number (10-30) of subflavors of supernaturals. North America gets the Camarilla and Pentex Incorporated, Europe gets the Sabbat and the Technocracy, China and surroundings gets the Jade Wheel Society and the One Hundred Names, India gets the Nagaraja and the Fists of Indrajit, Africa gets the Web of Anansi and the Kôr, South America gets the Ghost Speakers and the Shattered Empire. Or you know, whatever.

But the thing is that when you bring it down to actual games, people are going to want to actually use this material. So you have a campaign set in Boston or something, and some player whips out the East Asia book and announces that he wants to play a Penanggalan from the Jade Wheel Society. That's all fine and shit, but locally he's not even the president of the anime club. Boston is a Pentex city with a Camarilla underground. There's like 3 members of the Jade Wheel Society and they are part of the group that is collectively "neutrals." They have no stake in the current affairs of the board of Boston branch of Pentex, and even if they cared they still wouldn't have a voice. They just get to send their absentee ballots to Kuala Lumpur the next time there's a Jade Wheel Society determination. And let's be honest, not only are there no other Penanggalan in Boston, but their primary rivals the Garuda have no members in Boston either.

The President of the Anime Club problem is a really big problem. See: it isn't enough for every group to have a big enough slice of the global pie that they are worth caring about on a global scale (although that also has to happen). Every group has to have a big enough slice of the local pie to care about on a local scale. For every locality that people could possibly decide to set their games. So if the Fists of Indrajit can't produce enough give-a-shit to affect affairs in say, Atlanta, then their inclusion is right back to president of the anime club nonsense even if they are a big noise in India.

-Username17
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Would globalization be an acceptable solution for this? For example, if your organization of vampires control the electronics industry in Berlin, Hamburg, and Munich hardcore enough that you force the American and Indian research centers to take stock of you then there's a reason for international interests to contact their power bases to align with or oppose you. Your cabal pumps a bunch of money into Sir-Tech and declares them king of the video gaming industry and the next thing you know you're getting hit squads and spies from Guinea and Algeria -- and said hit squads and spies get their equipment and information from local power centers in those areas.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I think you could get something out of trans-continental alliances. Suppose that in the Boston situation that Pentex and the Jade Wheel have a deal to share certain mystic sites in the Pacific Islands. Deals like that can get complicated and include any number of excuses for players to get involved outside of the usual spheres. Pentex managed to get the loan of some JW muscle as part of the deal and assigned them to Boston, or the Jade Wheel is getting some side payment out of the Boston operation and sent the PC as an observer to make sure nothing goes too wrong.

That seems to me to create a nice sense of the larger world, and the PC both gets an interest in local affairs and a sense of importance as the symbol of a significant arrangement.
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Post by Username17 »

The idea of trans-continental alliances and global cartels is a functional setup. Certainly it worked for the Giovanni Necromancy Monopoly in Vampire. The Giovanni were only a big deal in a few locations on the planet, but they had the Necromancy that people wanted access to, so a single Giovanni character in a LARP was a factor in politics even though they had no local powerbase or constituency.

But the experience of the Giovanni probably shows the limit to that sort of thing. The Giovanni were valuable in that they could hook you up with conversations with the dead, but they were only valuable in that way. There were lots of Giovanni archetypes you could nominally play (such as "enforcer" or "mastermind"), but if you weren't playing a "medium," no one would give you the time of night. A character from a foreign organization whose viability in local politics is dependent upon their access to that cartel's special resources can only be made in whatever ways are available that can actually do that.

So to take it back to our Jade Wheel Society hypothetical, let's say that the JWS does something that Pentex and the Camarilla would like to be able to draw upon from time to time. Like, let's say that the JWS tracks where all the reincarnations go, and that this is something that is sometimes important to Pentex even though they lack the infrastructure to do it themselves. So now we have our proposed Penanggalan character, and they have something that allows them to have a seat at the table in some kinds of negotiations even though they lack any local backup. But... in order to have that seat, they must be a character who can somehow call upon those reincarnation charts. If there are any character generation options in the Far East book that end up with a Penanggalan character who can't call on those resources, those are all trap options.

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Post by name_here »

Wouldn't "the ability to call someone who can access those resources" suffice? That's a good enough reason for people to give a shit about them. Then they can parlay getting to show up at meetings and have people humor them into actual power.
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Post by Username17 »

name_here wrote:Wouldn't "the ability to call someone who can access those resources" suffice? That's a good enough reason for people to give a shit about them. Then they can parlay getting to show up at meetings and have people humor them into actual power.
Yeah, but there's basically the rub. If you're in a Pentex or Camarilla city, you might have something to do with the Amaranth Fields or the Blood Engines or the Laughter Factory or whatever the fuck the Camarilla and Pentex Incorporated make for export to other syndicates in other regions. But then again, you might not. You might run a cafe or be a magical private eye or whatever. There's a lot of stuff around town to do to maintain the masquerade or infiltrate local power structures or just make sure all the Kindred have enough kittens to eat. And of these 5-7 local power structures, probably only one or two of them make something for export to the Fists of Indrajit.

So if you make a Pentex character in a Pentex city, you don't have to be involved with the Laughter Factory. You can go ahead and be a Brujah and make a character who spends their time fixing motorcycles and solving Scooby Doo mysteries. You're part of the body politic and you get a seat at the table because your clan is charged with protecting the city from demon attack. But if the game is set in Rome, you have to be a Progenitor or know someone who is. And whatever else your character is or does, they only get a seat at the table if they are a used Mirth dealer.

And we saw that sort of thing in action with the Vampire LARP politics. People from non-Camarilla groups like the Giovanni and Setites were valuable if and only if they were able to leverage their cartel resources in a way that people cared about. If you played a Tzimisce who specialized in Animalism, no one wanted to talk to you.

TL;DR: the cartel model is the most effective solution that White Wolf ever came up with for handling setting bloat. But it still had the problem that regional power structures supported a lot of real character options which became fake character options if you sent them to another area where the cartel was a foreign group and not affiliated with the day-to-day governance of the region.

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Post by Ancient History »

Which then begs the Caitiff question: what are you giving up to opt out of politics entirely?
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

So here's a follow-up question, then: should people be allowed to cash out their non-local political power for social tokens that will allow them to be relevant for a local political power? That is, should Lee Iacocca be allowed to accept a demotion from CEO to CFO and then use those credits to become a capo or a strongman's general or high-ranking drug dealer whatever the fuck?
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Post by Whipstitch »

Ancient History wrote:Which then begs the Caitiff question: what are you giving up to opt out of politics entirely?
An awful lot. Caitiff are ground zero for the disinterested outsider archetype, but unfortunately we're talking about an undead themed RPG franchise from the '90s, so they're really just the tip of the iceberg. Every third character is going to just reek of ennui, and thus are fundamentally rather reactive characters who are unlikely be throwing their leverage around even if they manage to acquire some. Frankly, the only games of Vampire I've seen approximate a full campaign were the ones where people embraced being scheming assholes instead of playing at being all cool and misunderstood while listening to some goth/grunge/industrial/nu-metal. Ventrue chronicles in particular seemed to work well--yes, Ventrue represent or literally are the Man and their snobby faces are eminently punchable, but fact of the matter is that shit tends to move forward faster when you have someone with a deep seated need to herd cats heavily invested in the game.
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Post by Username17 »

Well now you're talking about two different things: what are the politics worth to the game, and what are the politics worth to the character. The answer to the first is actually a whole awful lot. Without buying in to the in-game politics there isn't a lot of reason to interact with most of the characters in the setting. Non-vampires outnumber vampires ten thousand to one if not a hundred thousand to one, so if you didn't feel the need to talk to any of the game relevant characters in the entire setting you certainly have that option. You can easily move to a small city where you're the only character with magic powers, and just ignore the entire supernatural social scene. But if you do that, there's not a lot to do in the game.

But as nWoD showed, the simple fact that there's not a lot to do in the game if you don't buy-in to the political struggles the game presents is not enough to make players do so. The politics have to actually justify themselves to the characters. Which is to say that when nWoD offered you the opportunity to go fight the VII in exchange for the prospect of being allowed to borrow the Invictis' company car on weekends when the duke wasn't using it, people balked. As well they should.

So it's really not enough to just remind people that without fucking with the political scene the game doesn't prevent a lot of direction or motivation. You also have to set the cost/benefit curves so that it looks like fucking with the political scene is something that would make sense in-character for the characters to do.

TL;DR: My werewolf character is not going to fight the Pure in order to "hold territory" he is going to have to leave next month anyway.

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Post by TheFlatline »

Ancient History wrote:Which then begs the Caitiff question: what are you giving up to opt out of politics entirely?
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Post by Chamomile »

Being a Caitiff is a deceptively good deal. Playing a Caitiff is dull.
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Post by Whipstitch »

Yeah, mechanically it's rock solid. Disciplines are like fighter feats--you don't have to dip very far to get to the good stuff and move on with your life.
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Post by hyzmarca »

FrankTrollman wrote: But the thing is that when you bring it down to actual games, people are going to want to actually use this material. So you have a campaign set in Boston or something, and some player whips out the East Asia book and announces that he wants to play a Penanggalan from the Jade Wheel Society. That's all fine and shit, but locally he's not even the president of the anime club. Boston is a Pentex city with a Camarilla underground. There's like 3 members of the Jade Wheel Society and they are part of the group that is collectively "neutrals." They have no stake in the current affairs of the board of Boston branch of Pentex, and even if they cared they still wouldn't have a voice. They just get to send their absentee ballots to Kuala Lumpur the next time there's a Jade Wheel Society determination. And let's be honest, not only are there no other Penanggalan in Boston, but their primary rivals the Garuda have no members in Boston either.
Isn't foreign syndicates playing both sides against the middle in order to gain advantage and territory a cliche in crime stories?

In this case, the Jade Wheel Society would officially be neutral, but they'd have a stake in the policies of Pentex and the Camirilla because they're doing business in the city and would covertly support whatever policies favor them the most. And if through some miracle the two entrenched factions manage to destroy each other then they sweep in and take over.

This generally involves getting guns and money from back home and providing them to local factions that have favorable policies or would screw up enough for you to easily usurp them if they won.
FrankTrollman wrote: So if you make a Pentex character in a Pentex city, you don't have to be involved with the Laughter Factory. You can go ahead and be a Brujah and make a character who spends their time fixing motorcycles and solving Scooby Doo mysteries. You're part of the body politic and you get a seat at the table because your clan is charged with protecting the city from demon attack. But if the game is set in Rome, you have to be a Progenitor or know someone who is. And whatever else your character is or does, they only get a seat at the table if they are a used Mirth dealer
Of course, your clan being charged with protecting the city from demonic attack is, itself, problematic. I'm not sure that why I should become entrenched in Brujha politics just because the asshole that bit me was a Brujha.

Even if vampirism was purely heriditary you'd have black sheep, but with an infection vector like vampirism has you're going to get a lot of people who disagree with clan leadership and a lot of people who don't give a shit about the clan at all.
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Post by Night Goat »

You don't become a vampire just from being bit by one, the vampire needs to drain your blood and then give you some of theirs. Camarilla vampires also need to get approval before creating more vampires. So, vampires are going to be careful when choosing who to Embrace, and they'll choose someone who will serve their needs.
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Post by Prak »

And even then, there will be childer who don't give two shits about the clan's politics. Now, some of those will have been embraced to be concubines or other ego-stroking servants for their sire, but others will just wake up a vampire and say "no, fuck that noise," and try to leave. And of course they will probably be dealt with by their sire, but a non-zero number of vampires will not care about the clan's politics, whether because they are apolitical entirely, or because they agree with another clan more. The obvious fix is a way to change clans, which, since it's all "A WizardVampire Did It" can be written in.
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Post by Username17 »

Night Goat wrote:You don't become a vampire just from being bit by one, the vampire needs to drain your blood and then give you some of theirs. Camarilla vampires also need to get approval before creating more vampires. So, vampires are going to be careful when choosing who to Embrace, and they'll choose someone who will serve their needs.
But of course, White Wolf did also embrace (pun intended) the idea of vampires ditching their offspring from time to time, and rebelling against the older generations is supposed to be a rather central theme of the whole series. Fundamentally, having your political faction determined by your bloodline is actually a rather terrible idea, even if it did segue smoothly into explaining how some of the mystic cartel powers stayed exclusive.

nWoD presented a better idea with their five by five wheel with clan determining your powers and covenant determining your political affiliation. The problem was that the political affiliations were lame and no one cared about them, as well as the issue that within the political organizations there wasn't any obvious division of labor.

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Post by TheFlatline »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Night Goat wrote:You don't become a vampire just from being bit by one, the vampire needs to drain your blood and then give you some of theirs. Camarilla vampires also need to get approval before creating more vampires. So, vampires are going to be careful when choosing who to Embrace, and they'll choose someone who will serve their needs.
But of course, White Wolf did also embrace (pun intended) the idea of vampires ditching their offspring from time to time, and rebelling against the older generations is supposed to be a rather central theme of the whole series. Fundamentally, having your political faction determined by your bloodline is actually a rather terrible idea, even if it did segue smoothly into explaining how some of the mystic cartel powers stayed exclusive.

nWoD presented a better idea with their five by five wheel with clan determining your powers and covenant determining your political affiliation. The problem was that the political affiliations were lame and no one cared about them, as well as the issue that within the political organizations there wasn't any obvious division of labor.

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Not to mention that a 5 way political struggle doesn't look like intrigue and a cold war mentality, it looks like chaos. You have like 120 different permutations of faction alliance possibilities alone. Not to mention keeping track of potentially 120 different ways all the political factions can ally/piss in each other's cheerios is really fucking hard for a storyteller to do, bordering on impossible.
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