4E -> 3E Adaptations

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:43 pm

Personally, I heavily disliked the Swordmage class. Like, back when I still had enough hope for 4E D&D to purchase actual books reading this class felt like a kick in the taint.

Seriously, what exactly was the fucking point of the class? The Swordmage they presented (nice name BTW; what's next, Axethief? Monkhammer?) didn't conform to any genre representations of a swordmage. Like, think of all of the characters in fiction that wield phallic pieces of metal and use magic spells: Saber, Sasuke Uchiha, Eragon, Zelgadis, Elric, Rand al'Thor, the Red/Blue Mage in Final Fantasy, the Quest for Glory hero, and even obscure examples like the protagonists of the Shadowrun video games and Ness. Of all of those characters, Saber is the closest character that the class actually represents and that's only if you ignore that setting your sword on element crap.

Nah, the only reason why the class existed was because the D&D game developers had up a huge chart with columns labeled 'Roles', rows labelled 'Power Source', and the individual cells actual classes. Then someone noticed that while there was an Artificer for the Arcane Leader cell, Wizard for the Arcane Controller cell, and Warlock for the Arcane Striker cell the one for the Arcane Defender cell was left blank. So fuck a game representation of actual gishes, (I hate that word, too, even more than Swordmage) let's just fill in the fucking chart like OCD manchildren!! We can't just let blanks exist in our twee little chart! You don't make classes to add to the story or entertain players, you do it to fill in charts!

On a less vitriolic note: what was so great about the enchanted Ki Foci? You wrapped your hands in bandages and you applied weapon properties to whatever weapon you were holding, including your unarmed strikes. Not only is that not a particularly new mechanic but it brings its own set of baggage I do not like.

Eikre · Post by **Eikre** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:17 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:(nice name BTW; what's next, Axethief? Monkhammer?)

Yeah I've kind of taken it for granted at this point that binomial nomenclature is the sure sign of thematic bankruptcy. If you can't come up with a single word, or a compound word that's already in the dictionary, then you just might not be dealing with an idea that bears the weight of a core class. There's a broader exception at the prestige-class level of specificity, but mostly this is a category of names which are only appropriate for the MTG cards that people just leave on the table when they're finished with a draft.

Top of my lexical shitlist: "Duskblade." What the fuck does that even mean?

The Swordmage they presented didn't conform to any genre representations of a swordmage.

Actually, it does: The JRPG hero that attacks by flashstepping into a shiny, hyper-acrobatic assault and then turns around and runs back to his party's front line to bob up in down in a fighting stance until his turn comes up again.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:29 am

You're being sarcastic, Eikre, but I would've accepted a swordmage that fought by teleporting around the battlefield to smack people that dropped their guards and then popping back to their original position. I can think of magic swordsman characters who do that.

But the swordmage didn't quite work like that. For one, only one of the builds, Aegis of Assault, actually did something even vaguely resembling that. What's more, you were a tank character, so your goal was to try to get people to dogpile you/round up enemies in a corner so that A.) other characters could turbonuke (at 4E speeds, mind) the opposition and B.) you could more easily use your 'punish people for not focus all their attention on you' powers. Again, the magic swordsman character who comes closest to doing this is Saber but the class still fucked up because the Swordmage wasn't especially tanky or magey. 95% of your schticks were: teleporting around the field, hitting people with a stick of held or thrown sharp metal, or setting your sword on element and hitting people with it. No curing, no buffs, no summoning, no conjured walls (unless you count some weak-ass short-range elemental power), no ablative barriers, no zones of control, no anti-magic, and no status effect more powerful than slow + prone. I think the three coolest powers the Swordmage got was a short-range teleportation lock, growing to troll size, and making a duplicate that functioned more as a distortion in space to attack and be attacked from than an extra token on the board.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:48 am

Swordmages can actually do all of Cloud's & Squall's limit breaks. Omnislash, the spinning shockwave and the ground slam shockwave, even Meteorain.

Obviously you would go with the teleport swordmage. They have other nice stuff, mostly lightning-based. Pull someone into melee with a lightning rope. Chain lightning off of a melee attack. Boomerang sword throw. Immobile & phase lock. Shadowclonejutsu. Teleport self & melee opponent.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:25 am

Please tell me that you were being snarky. Even if you were being sincere, then could you please at least lie to me and tell me that you were being snarky? I need to know that you nor anyone else weren't, hell, couldn't be sincere with that lost post, otherwise I've lost all hope for D&D.

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:32 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Aryxbez wrote:Other than that, 4E once had a Paragon Path where one could Dual Wield Shields, wish D&D could emulate that.
Bizarrely, in 3.0E the dual-shield wielder was one of the very few non-sneak attack/cleric TWFers that (barely) broke even with THF -- assuming you were using Divine Shield and a piece of spotty errata.

How did it work in 3E? I know it works in PF, but I've never encountered it in 3E.

I mean, Divine Shield gives +AC to a shield... but is it even stackable?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:42 am

Defenders of the Faith wrote: Divine Shield
Prerequisites:Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash, ability to turn or rebuke undead, CHA 13+, STR 13+.
Spend one of your turn/rebuke undead attempts to channel energy into your shield, granting it an enhancement bonus equal to your Charisma modifier. This enhancement bonus applies both to the shield's attacks and defense, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.

Very nice. I think that FrankTrollman's character in the classic Why Monks? thread used Divine Shield, but the character was a mounted lancer paladin.

There was also an obscure bit of errata that let you use Divine Might and Divine Shield as a free action. Well, I say that it was in the errata, but technically it was a clarification since 3.0E had supernatural abilities defaulting to free actions unless otherwise specified. But you know how D&D fans are with appeals to authorities. Couple of sentences from that Skip Williams dipshit are worth more than precedent and evidence.

As a bullshit bonus, here's the 3.5E version.

Complete Warrior wrote: Divine Shield
Prerequisites: Turn or rebuke undead ability, proficiency with a shield.
As a standard action, spend one of your turn/rebuke undead attempts to channel energy into your shield, granting it a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier. This bonus applies to the shield' bonus to Armor Class and lasts for a number of rounds equal to half of your character level.

Roy used to lead a truthful but counterintuitive and hopelessly misguided crusade to get people to believe that Complete Warrior was the worst thing to happen to warriors in D&D. Stuff like that was his trump card, but it was far from his only one.

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:49 am

Damn, I didn't know it added to attacks/damage too. Very nice.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:17 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Seriously, what exactly was the fucking point of the class? The Swordmage they presented (nice name BTW; what's next, Axethief? .

Don't Mind if I do

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:29 am

For the longest time I thought Swordmage was the name of that PrC 3e class the Spellsword: http://s22.photobucket.com/user/zaxter1 ... d.jpg.html

Their aegis teleport is interesting but their powers just didn't seem as interesting to me as the fighter or wizard. I liked playing a wizard more, and I liked the Bladesinger's rider and use of wizard spells more (even though they're crappy overall I was the only guy optimizing at the table so it balanced out).

Psychologically it's just comforting to know that my "fighter/wizard" is still swinging his sword like a fighter and casting spells like a wizard, and then has some additional power to fighter-stab wizard spells into resilient monsters. Having everything use their own independent power list with their own unique names makes the world look uncohesive.

Even though they were a mess to play with, conceptually the Bladesinger was more appealing to me. Hybrid classes were also a neat idea (that then gets trampled by 4e wonky math and MAD)