Pathfinder homebrew and novel resource schedules.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun May 03, 2015 1:11 am

Progress update: I haven't written any of the class ability lists, but as for the rest of their class features the enchanter, warlock, beguiler, sorcerer, rogue, monk, berserker, and champion are all done or very close to done. Some of those could use a smattering of non-combat/fluff abilities tacked on (actually, they're ordered from "least in need" to "most in need", what a surprise that the casters and martials have sorted themselves so neatly). The wizard and psion are about half done, and everything else (hunter, marshal, paladin, cleric, elementalist, necromancer, shaman) is untouched outside of their core resource mechanic.

I'll probably do the hunter (assassin) and shaman next, and then I'm thinking I'll do some of the class ability lists (warlock, sorcerer, and monk seem like a good start) and then once I have a couple classes finished I'll make a giant IMOI thread and post both the finished and WIP classes.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun May 03, 2015 7:14 am

Hunter really is a shit name for a PC class. It sounds like an NPC class name. Like, if you encounter a tribe of Lizardfolk, you expect them to have "hunters" who have probably some tracking and bow proficiency, but maybe aren't as good at fighting as their "warriors." And their warriors are a god damn NPC class. The PC-sounding class name is "Ranger" and I feel that it is bloody obvious that D&D can support an Assassin as a separate class from Ranger. I mean, for fuck's sake 1st edition AD&D actually did and that game only had 10 classes (plus multiclass, dual class and the singular Bard PrC).

Anyway, one thing I think should happen for Rogues is for Sneak Attack and Backstab to be separate attacks with separate triggers. Rogues get forced into being short ranged ranged combatants at mid level because they start needing Full Attacks to get the damage multiplied on Sneak Attack to make it meaningful. Full Attacks give them very limited mobility, so the positional Sneak Attack option phases out as a viable option. The whole thing of flanking with a short sword is well and good at 1st level, but it's a god damn joke at 10th.

If Backstab was a standard action that simply did a quadratic fucktonne of damage that triggered off melee attacks against flanked, flat footed, or prone opponents while sneak attack was an attack action usable at range that triggered off of dex-denied opponents, then the short sword using Rogue could stay viable in later levels and Rogues would move around to slit throats from time to time.

-Username17

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun May 03, 2015 12:53 pm

@Hunter: Really? The name's grew on me since people started mentioning it here, and it's got a considerably more neutral tone than assassin while still being a fairly obvious class into which to put your assassins (also, I think the ranger's a stupid fucking class and am not the least bit saddened to let the assassin-wait-no-hunter-okay-maybe-assassin steal its thunder). But I'm shit at naming things and don't care too much either way, so I'll defer to the populace at large. So if you also think hunter's a shit name, quick! Yell at me on the internet!

For martial maneuvers in general, I'm leaning towards three different kinds of activations: attack actions, swift actions triggerable on hit, and standard actions. Melee backstab seems like a perfect candidate for swift action trigger on hit. You're not locked out of full attacking; in fact, it increases your odds of landing the backstab. But you also don't depend on the full attack, which is good because a lot of the time you're not going to get it. Having a separate attack action trick for shooting people full of arrows or whatever from stealth is definitely a good idea.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun May 03, 2015 4:07 pm

I figure 'hunter' is good for a system where you have a handful of broad classes that can cover various character concepts. Man hunter, treasure hunter, mage hunter, vampire hunter, these are all character concepts I could imagine using an 'observation' mechanic to stalk and ambush their chosen prey (or any obstacles along the way).

But if you're going for classsplosion, then "vampire hunter" and "treasure hunter" could be classes of their own in the way that you have "Necromancer" as separate from "specialist wizard".

Though nowadays there are over 10 million people familiar with 'hunter' as a class due to Warcraft.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Sun May 03, 2015 6:27 pm

I think Assassin just sounds unsavory and its been linked to Evil alignment for so long in Dungeons and Dragons. I know it sounds generic and everybody is supposed to be a killer somehow, but what about a class named Killer?

I hate to give Pathfinder props, but their Ranger/Rogue smoosh together had a good, similar name. Slayer.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sun May 03, 2015 7:13 pm

If your hunter isn't like the WoW hunter, you probably don't want till use the name. Assassin is a bad ass name and it will be easy to work around the alignment connotations.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun May 03, 2015 7:56 pm

The most popular tome class was the Tome Monk. If you type "dungeonomicon" into google, it will offer you "dungeonomicon monk" as one of the top options. But beyond that, one of the top five is the Tome Assassin. The reality is that people really want to put "Assassin" on their character sheet. It's a really popular option. Has been since the 1970s. That's not even a joke. Assassin has been a popular character class for longer than I've been alive.

People acting like the class is somehow edgy or controversial is just fucking bizarre. People want the 1st edition options and they want them to be good. The end.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun May 03, 2015 10:15 pm

Look, the 90s happened. And as much sport as we make about the EDGEMASTER Z media that came out during this time, one unabashedly positive thing that came out of the era is that it's no longer a big deal to offer up to protagonists options that primarily or even exclusively resided with Team Evil.

Vampire protagonists are a thing. Orc protagonists are a thing. Killer robot protagonists are a thing. So are necromancers, arms dealers, monster tamers, violent vigilantes, people who transform into ugly Lovecraftian monsters, ninjas (and not TMNT ninjas, I mean Ninja Gaiden ninjas) and even aristocrats who don't apologize for social darwinism.

There's no reason why you can't just straight-up offer an assassin class. It wouldn't even be the edgiest thing available to PCs. Even if you're afraid of attracting hyperactive dipshit 13-year old edgelords, they have a lot more non-assassins options to get their edgemaster on; those particular cows have not only left the barn long before you closed the door, but they've became feral, were re-domesticated, and left the barn of ANOTHER rancher.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun May 03, 2015 11:39 pm

"Assassin might be controversial" is not the point. "Assassin sets a more specific tone than hunter" is the point. Assassin fits under hunter in a way hunter does not fit under assassin.

If someone said, "I want to sneak around, track my enemies, erase my presence, and carefully study my opponents in order to deal maximum hurt. You know, like an assassin," and you told them that the class for that was the hunter, odds are good that would sound right to them.

If someone said, "I want to sneak around, track my enemies, erase my presence, and carefully study my opponents in order to deal maximum hurt. You know, like a hunter," and you told them that the class for that was the assassin, odds are good that would sound slightly off to them.

You might still prefer to use assassin over hunter for the class name because writing assassin on your character sheet is cooler than writing hunter and also because class names are just abstract metagame concepts anyway so nothing stops you from writing assassin and not being an actual assassin. Hence, "what do people other than me think about this?"

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun May 03, 2015 11:47 pm

DSMatticus wrote:If someone said, "I want to sneak around, track my enemies, erase my presence, and carefully study my opponents in order to deal maximum hurt. You know, like a hunter," and you told them that the class for that was the assassin, odds are good that would sound slightly off to them.

Is it now? I admit that someone whose primary targets were unintelligent beasts and/or big game would prefer to be called a hunter over an assassin. However, I claim that if your targets are more things like giant robots and demigods and undead monstrosities and demons and superheroes, most people wouldn't notice the thematic baggage between the two titles. I think that the only non-low level prey that a preponderance of people would rather call themselves 'hunters of' rather than 'assassins of' are non-intelligent kaiju.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Mon May 04, 2015 12:12 am

DSMatticus wrote:For martial maneuvers in general, I'm leaning towards three different kinds of activations: attack actions, swift actions triggerable on hit, and standard actions. Melee backstab seems like a perfect candidate for swift action trigger on hit. You're not locked out of full attacking; in fact, it increases your odds of landing the backstab. But you also don't depend on the full attack, which is good because a lot of the time you're not going to get it. Having a separate attack action trick for shooting people full of arrows or whatever from stealth is definitely a good idea.

The only issue I see here is that this could allow you to stack attack or standard action and swift action abilities. So, your rogue makes a whole bunch of crippling strikes, but still gets to deal tons of damage with a backstab.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Mon May 04, 2015 5:10 am

google image search is your friend. The name bringing up the better art is the one you want.

Like, Necromancer comes up with a bunch of big guys with scythes, people with a pet skellington, people raising the dead as an attack, and otherwise a lot of green fog and lightning. Some pale-ass dead-looking folk, some pretty boys. Variety, style, and nice art.

Assassin is the Assassin's Creed guy. That's all of it for pages. -creed gets you more AC as fanart but also some characters from games that are ripoffs of AC.

Hunter gets you people with guns, by which I mean photos of actual real world hunters, the odd sniper, and some guy pointing a rifle at traffic. Plus that movie about the assassin.

Ranger gets you bow-rangers, the AC guy again, pet hawks (the ford, army rangers, Native American in traditional costume, wild west) drizzt clones, and everything from plate armour to bear skins with a sword or big axe. Sometimes people in gas masks with giant guns for some reason. The actual fantasy art is starkly formulaic.

Evoker is where there's some fucking Japanese thing where kids point fake guns at their heads and pull the trigger to summon a demon or something just like in the story. I have no. Just, no.

Paladin works. As long as you like full plate and a big sword, maybe shield, rarely a hammer. Angel-wings optional.

Fighter is MMA, Street Fighter, they're what Monks do in D&D.

Summoner ... wild variety as you'd expect, but they all bring in some weird shit, all otherworldly, no one is summoning a bear. Nice art too.

Sorcerers just build up balls of $element in their hands and throw it at people. Throwing lightning goes forked, and throwing poison goes in a cloud. It's a simple concept. Not the best art.

And then I got bored and stopped. I think what I learnt today is that every martial concept that has any traction at all (outside a particular video game that uses the name) is incredibly tightly defined in people's imagination. If you're a Ranger you use a longbow, wear a cloak, and maybe have a hawk on your shoulder and a pair of swords as backup and that's it forever, while the Paladin wears plate and maybe glows a bit or grows wings. People are going to hate when you tell them their Ranger has spells now, but be sad if their Paladin can't grow wings in time of need.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon May 04, 2015 6:50 am

Hunter is a thing that 0-level NPCs are. It just is. There are PCs who are hunters, but it is their background, not their class. Because hunter is and always has been a job that 0-level NPCs have.

Similarly Perrin is a blacksmith and Rand is a farmer, but neither of them have the player character class called "blacksmith" or "farmer" because those are not PC classes that exist. Those are jobs that 0-level NPCs have that some PCs happen to also have as their background before they start having actual player character abilities.

If the word is an in-world label that 0-level non-combat NPCs have on a regular basis, it's not a fucking PC class. That is why "hunter," along with "fisher," "miller," and "scribe" are shitty names for a PC class and you shouldn't use them.

-Username17

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Mon May 04, 2015 10:30 am

tussock wrote:Ranger gets you bow-rangers, the AC guy again, pet hawks (the ford, army rangers, Native American in traditional costume, wild west) drizzt clones, and everything from plate armour to bear skins with a sword or big axe. Sometimes people in gas masks with giant guns for some reason.

Did the masks have glowing red eyes? I bet those were the NCR Veteran Rangers from Fallout New Vegas (and technically FO2 but that's gonna have a lot fewer google results honestly).

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Mon May 04, 2015 1:43 pm

Hunter is a thing that 0-level NPCs are. It just is. There are PCs who are hunters, but it is their background, not their class. Because hunter is and always has been a job that 0-level NPCs have.

You can keep saying this all you want, but Hunter is the more frequently used name in games these days. You have Hunters in WoW, Demon Hunters in Diablo, the protagonists (and a lot of the tougher enemies) in Bloodborne are Hunters, one of the bigger and meaner enemy types in Halo is a Hunter...whereas if I search for Ranger, pretty much the only response I am going to find is D&D/Pathfinder and fucking Power Rangers. Ranger may be the name we are used to because we've all been playing D&D for 15+ years, but that doesn't mean it is what you have to use.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon May 04, 2015 2:24 pm

Seerow wrote:
Hunter is a thing that 0-level NPCs are. It just is. There are PCs who are hunters, but it is their background, not their class. Because hunter is and always has been a job that 0-level NPCs have.
You can keep saying this all you want, but Hunter is the more frequently used name in games these days. You have Hunters in WoW, Demon Hunters in Diablo, the protagonists (and a lot of the tougher enemies) in Bloodborne are Hunters, one of the bigger and meaner enemy types in Halo is a Hunter...whereas if I search for Ranger, pretty much the only response I am going to find is D&D/Pathfinder and fucking Power Rangers. Ranger may be the name we are used to because we've all been playing D&D for 15+ years, but that doesn't mean it is what you have to use.

Demon Hunters, Treasure Hunters, Monster Hunters, and Vampire Hunters are not "hunters" and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise. I will give you WoW, because that is a game where legitimately they hand out "Hunter" and "Warrior" as PC classes. But that's it.

As for Rangers... are you fucking serious? I mean not only is it the class name in the Final Fantasy MMO, making it have the same claim to validity as any WoW class, but it's used in a modern context to mean elite wilderness warriors by real world militaries. You are just fucking wrong here. Ranger is a term that means exactly what it's supposed to mean in RPGs.

For fuck's sake, let's look at the top pieces of art on a google image search:

Hunter

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[/img]

Ranger
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Not only are the first two pieces of art for Rangers badass player characters with bows, while the first two pieces of art for Hunters are dopey zero-level NPCs with shotguns, but the first two Ranger pictures are also the first images on the damn image search, while the first images for Hunters are a bunch of photos of real life zero-level schlubs in the woods.

There's just no contest. "Ranger" means exactly what we want it to mean for naming a player character class, and "Hunter" does the other thing. The thing where it's like naming your class "Potter" or "Chandler."

-Username17

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Mon May 04, 2015 8:32 pm

Frank Trollman wrote:The thing where it's like naming your class "Potter" or "Chandler."

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Mon May 04, 2015 9:12 pm

Meanwhile, the top results for "Monk" (apologies for size):

And just going for art, not images:

So, half credit, I suppose?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon May 04, 2015 9:30 pm

We were just going by art. If we went by total images, than all the top hits for Hunter are a bunch of schlubs in the woods waving firearms at deer. As for the Monk, yeah I get a shaolin martial artist (two versions of the same picture actually) before I get to a painting of a Christian scribe. So we're in "passably OK" territory. The martial artists is an acceptable interpretation of the term. It doesn't have the clear resonance of something like Berserker or Ranger, but it will do.

By the by, searches for "Slayer" are so completely dominated by the band of that name that I can't even tell what (if any) expectations people bring to the term as a PC class.

-Username17

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon May 04, 2015 9:49 pm

The WoW hunter is clearly just a D&D ranger. The combination of bows & a pet in a setting with orcs means everyone is thinking it. Therefore, you can't import it back into D&D as a Hunter. It came from D&D in the first place and in D&D it's called a Ranger.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon May 04, 2015 10:02 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:By the by, searches for "Slayer" are so completely dominated by the band of that name that I can't even tell what (if any) expectations people bring to the term as a PC class.

-Username17

... electric guitars, obviously.

Zaranthan · Post by **Zaranthan** » Tue May 05, 2015 3:14 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:... electric guitars, obviously.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue May 26, 2015 11:41 pm

So, how do you see this interacting with multiclassing? If you get a Wizard/Champion, you have fewer deeds and spells. You'd want selections to be level appropriate (like, use character level instead of class level).

It seems like some class combinations would be more powerful than others. Random resources might benefit from non-random pairings (you have a backup for those bad WoF rolls). Fury could benefit from being paired with one that depletes.

It might be balanced if you end up having fewer options and resources per class.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed May 27, 2015 12:46 am

I don't actually care about trying to make 3.5-style multiclassing work. That said, it will probably end up "working" exactly as it does in 3.5 for casters, in that wizard 7 is worth more than cleric 1 so multiclassing is for suckers unless you have some incredibly specific game plan. Every class follows the caster paradigm where they pick abilities off increasingly powerful lists as they level up, so multiclassing means giving up some of your class's most powerful abilities for another class's weakest ones.

And yeah, I actually am still working on this. I've decided to post my work in bigger chunks, because everytime I finish one class I find myself wanting to go back and revise another one - the wizard is particularly problematic, because they still have the 3.5 wizard's versatility while now also being an at-will caster. It's a difficult needle to thread leaving room for more specialized and limited casters (like the beguiler and enchanter) to have more punch in their respective fields without making the wizard seem too weak, particularly since my preparation casters aren't actually full-on daily casters, they just need a short break ranging from five minutes to an hour, so they really only need to ration their spells if they expect back-to-back action anyway.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Wed May 27, 2015 4:34 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
By the by, searches for "Slayer" are so completely dominated by the band of that name that I can't even tell what (if any) expectations people bring to the term as a PC class.

Blackguards with some bard class features? Or vice versa.